Yes, the ice dance costumes in the past were quite revealing, but there are now rules in place to prevent that kind of sensationalism. But even though the costumes were revealing, the dancers weren't doing anything explicitly sexual. IIRC, Navka/Kostomarov skated to Carmen one season with nothing controversial in their routine.
2013 4cc Free Dance
- Thread starter figuristka
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Actually, I agree. This take on Carmen is quite innovative. Tessa in black is kind of a Goth Carmen, both an agent and a victim of fate, or something like that.
Maybe next time she will try the more traditional operatic approach to the character:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSffQBESp4Q
Winton Dean, Bizet's biographer, writes that "Carmen is redeemed from any suspicion of VULGARITY by her qualities of courage and fatalism so vividly realised in the music".
In recent productions, directors seems to have gone in a different direction.
In recent productions, directors seems to have gone in a different direction.
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That is in reference to the character Carmen from the opera. As we keep being told, what V/M are doing has nothing much to do with the opera Carmen.
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- Jun 3, 2009
Love it. Loaded with meaning and it's just so heightened and bold.
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- Mar 7, 2011
This is why V/M took unfair advantage of the break rule. They did not fall horrifically during the routine as Zhang did. I'm sure Tessa is in pain a lot, but not as horrifically as a pairs fall. Tessa's is a recurring injury that did not occur during the performance, which falls under the category of lack of readiness/stamina. Zhang & Zhang were justified in stopping and restarting without penalty. If it's not clear to the naked eye that someone has an injury, it needs to be explained to a judge or medical official. Tessa didn't do anything to indicate injury, she just skated around to the boards with big eyes and characteristic silence while staring at her coach. There's no guarantee that anything was actually wrong with her.
What V/M did is no different than a singles skater going into a jump, stopping, skating over to the boards, shaking out their legs and continuing the program.
With the logic of quasi-medical stoppages going unpenalized, then Ashley Wagner should have gotten extra points for injuring herself at GPF but continuing the program.
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- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
The case of the Zhangs was different. They recovered and skated practically clean, including a 2A+3T immediately after the fall/break. After Shen/Zhao had an imperfect SP and erred on both both SBS jumps in the free, I thought silver was a fair result for the Zhangs (who were given lower PCS than S/Z and Pang/Tong, and much lower than Tot/Mar). I'm still astounded that Hao Zhang did 2A+3T when most singles women wouldn't attempt any combination like that at the 2006 Olympics. Gedevanishvili was the only other woman to do a XX+3T.
In the case of V/M, the interruption wasn't unfair, because it was likely a contributing factor to their loss. Sure, the lift might have been bailed, and repeating it got those points back, but the interruption -- particularly severe in ice dance when you're trying to create a mood and performance -- was a significant hit to their PCS. I don't think the lift was started, as in she was lifted into the air, so repeating it was okay... at any rate, even with the lift omitted, the result would have still been the same.
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- Dec 21, 2011
I don't think it's really accurate to say they took unfair advantage of it- who knows. I do agree though, as many others have said, that a break has have more heavy penalties associated with it and be more transparent.
I wonder about athlete safety. If a break has penalties attached, what happens if one of the athletes gets injured but doesn't stop because he/she doesn't want to incur the penalty? Let's say right before a lift during the FD at Sochi Olympics, Charlie White gets a severe leg cramp. D/W are just behind V/M in the standings, and they know the penalty will blow any chance of winning. Should he continue to lift Meryl with the very real chance that he could cause serious injury to both Meryl and himself? What do you think an athlete who has trained his entire life to win a gold medal at the Olympic Games would do at that moment? Let's also say Ice Dance gold is the U.S.'s only real hope for a gold medal in figure skating, and the pressure on D/W to win is huge.
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- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Here is another famous example. At the 1998 World Pro, Todd Eldredge fell on a triple Lutz. He hit the ice so hard that he broke a cufflink. A few seconds later he noticed the cufflink on the ice. He stopped the program and went over to the referee's table to show the panel that there was a hazard on the ice.
Assistant referee Alexander Lakernik (now head of the ISU technical committee) gave Eldredge one of his own cufflinks. Eldredge was asked if he wanted to pick up the program from before or after the triple Lutz attempt. Todd went with before.
He nailed it on the second attempt and finished in second ahead of Rudy Galindo and Kurt Browning. (Alexei Yagudin won.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuAVmwgD1tI#t=2m9s
Assistant referee Alexander Lakernik (now head of the ISU technical committee) gave Eldredge one of his own cufflinks. Eldredge was asked if he wanted to pick up the program from before or after the triple Lutz attempt. Todd went with before.
He nailed it on the second attempt and finished in second ahead of Rudy Galindo and Kurt Browning. (Alexei Yagudin won.)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuAVmwgD1tI#t=2m9s
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Excellent point. Safety of the athletes is paramount & figure skating can dangerous. IMO the ISU are correct in eliminating penalties. These skaters spend years/months/hours perfecting their programs & if an injury or equipment malfunction suddenly occurs, it's only fair there's some leeway & flexibility rather than punitive rigidity. Stuff happens.
Excellent point. Safety of the athletes is paramount & figure skating can dangerous. IMO the ISU are correct in eliminating penalties. These skaters spend years/months/hours perfecting their programs & if an injury or equipment malfunction suddenly occurs, it's only fair there's some leeway & flexibility rather than punitive rigidity. Stuff happens.
Oh, no, I really don't think you want to ELIMINATE penalties - what's left there - relying on the athelets' sense of honor to prevent abusing of this "leeway and & flexibility" ? This is a sport after all and risk is part of it, like you said, stuff happens. If you have decided to commit to it, you should accept certain degree of risk and accountability. I agree there should be some measure for safety, but not like this.
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- Jul 26, 2003
I'd probably put at least a one point penalty. Maybe 2. Or maybe on a sliding scle, depending on how long the interruption is.
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- Dec 21, 2011
I think at least there should be more transparency and a time limit on the interruption (or perhaps sliding scale as you say). I think the skaters should have to say what is wrong and that there should be atime limit for them to get their stuff together. I think a 1-2 point penalty is appropriate. I think safety is very important (and hope the skaters think so too!) but as others have said better than I could it's a sport. If you cannot do a program straight through, whatever the reason, a mild penalty is appropriate. If it is just one point that is far less than the 'real' penalty for a fall (taking into account negative GOE) and I think that is more than fair.
I'm not disputing the idea of there being a point deduction, etc., but there is a time limit already -- three minutes, or else the skaters are considered to be withdrawn.
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- Feb 24, 2012
I remember I think the 2006 Olympics and the Zhang's. I thought they should have forfeited their medals. They went for a big trick and failed and got hurt. I am not sure they got penalized at all other than the fall. This was not a fluke accident ie broken shoe lace, cuff link; they made a huge error on a throw jump.
How much abuse have we seen? How many skaters have taken advantage of this rule as it now stands?
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- Jul 26, 2003
I know of 3: Shibutanis, V&M, and the Zhangs. I don't think taken advantage of is the correct term, exactly; the rule was applied in their cases. I daresay it has happened at smaller competitions, but I haven't watched them.