2013 Junior Worlds Men FS

[Ziggy]

Josh deserves the GOE on his jumps...they are like twice the size of Jason's.

They aren't twice higher. Other than the one axel, Brown's jumps all had decent enough height, very solid and controlled soft landings with good speed and flow coming out and a nice extension of the free leg. Farris's jumps were good but I think Brown's were better.

in the SP he did not deserve higher PCS because his program was not clean and it affected the impact.

Brown's mistake did not disrupt the flow of the program and did not relate to the PCS criteria whatsoever.

Jason is a gumby doll and his spins are incredible, but besides that I don't see where he is so superior to Joshua?

His programs are far more complex, he has better posture and lines, he reflects the character of the music with his movement, using his whole body, and his interpretation is far more nuanced.

 

[Skater Boy]

I think Jason has superior skating skills then almost any of the top Senior men discounting Jeremy. And Josh has huge jumps and a big triple axel. Good for him trying the quad again.

In the US? What about Hanyu, Takahashi, Fernandez, Chan?

 

[karne]

I just wrote out a nice long post about how happy I was and all the good things that they did and it got eaten. Boo.

 

[babyskate]

No links to video yet? I cannot wait to see all 3 of the men. I was also one of the fortunate to be in Greensboro in 2011 and I was standing with everyone else and became an enormous fan. Live is the way to appreciate the quality of Jason's skating. I spoke to him at a holiday event in NY and he could not have been any nicer.

 

[Mrs. P]

I just wrote out a nice long post about how happy I was and all the good things that they did and it got eaten. Boo.

Well I hope you will rewrite it.

 

[dorispulaski]

I just wrote out a nice long post about how happy I was and all the good things that they did and it got eaten. Boo.

If you lose another post, make sure you try recovering it via Autosave! It will have most of your post, if you're lucky.

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?35821-Lost-your-post-We-now-have-Auto-Save

I believe that if you post after you lose a post, it might not be there, though.

 

[Snoopy15]

Exciting event, but I just realized something: Keiji Tanaka wasn't present at this event.
Excuse my ranting, but WHY IS THERE A LIMIT OF THREE SPOTS FOR A COUNTRY THAT'S DOMINATING LIKE JAPAN?!
*rant over

 

[karne]

Exciting event, but I just realized something: Keiji Tanaka wasn't present at this event.
Excuse my ranting, but WHY IS THERE A LIMIT OF THREE SPOTS FOR A COUNTRY THAT'S DOMINATING LIKE JAPAN?!
*rant over

Keiji Tanaka is injured.

And the three spots limit is good. It's hard enough for skaters from countries like Australia to make it to these things as it is, why make it harder for us poor little minnows just because one country is strong?

And I suppose the other question is, would you still be calling for it if, say, it was the US or Russia that was strong?

 

[Mao88]

MEN'S FREE SKATE - RESULT & VIDEOS

1. Joshua FARRIS (USA) - 228.32 Free Skate
2. Jason BROWN (USA) - 224.15 Free Skate
3. Shotaro OMORI (USA) - 204.34 Free Skate
4. Boyang JIN (CHN) - 192.58 Free Skate
5. Michael Christian MARTINEZ (PHI) - 191.64 Free Skate
6. Mikhail KOLYADA (RUS) - 189.94 Free Skate
7. Shoma UNO (JPN) - 187.08 Free Skate
8. Alexander SAMARIN (RUS) - 186.96 Free Skate
9. He ZHANG (CHN) - 178.18 Free Skate
10. Ryuju HINO (JPN) - 176.85 Free Skate
11. Martin RAPPE (GER) - 174.32 Free Skate
12. Nam NGUYEN (CAN) - 172.58
13. June Hyoung LEE (KOR) - 166.21
14. Pavel IGNATENKO (BLR) - 165.27 Free Skate
15. Luiz MANELLA (BRA) - 161.71

 

[karne]

Let's try not to lose it this time.

I'm a neutral on the Josh vs Jason argument, I'm not going to go there, because I love them both, and all I wanted was a 1-2. The order didn't especially bother me. And I can't make a call without having seen their long programs yet, but Josh's SP was certainly of a high calibre and a worthy champion's SP.

After Turkey I remember saying (not here I don't think, but to others) that I didn't think the judges liked Jason's Prince SP very much. I think that's reflected in the PCS scores he gets for it - not as high as for Grand Guignol last season. Personally I hate that SP, I hate the music, I hate the costume, but of course Jason skates it very well. There were two mistakes in the SP that cost him - not just the combo, but then the too-far-over layover camel in the final combo spin that he almost lost control of. He only got level 3 for that, and for his step sequence as well, whereas Josh got all 4s. That sort of thing makes a big difference. If you look at his SP last season, he got a 70.80 for it at JWC, and that was with a 2A. With a clean 3A I was expecting that to score 73-74 at least, but the judges didn't like it. At any rate, I'm glad that that was probably the last outing for that SP.

His LP, however...now there's a program I would be happy to see re-used. I wondered how it would go, when I first heard he was using Liebestraume. I didn't think it would compare with Ilia Kulik's Liebestraume which is my standard for that music - but I think Jason's is just divine, even beats Ilia's for beauty. I loved watching it evolve through the season. I knew it would be a big-scorer if he went clean on it, which he never did until now. The judges seemed to like it too. But a 154...that blew me out of the water. I could hardly believe it! I really can't wait to see it. Anyone who's seen it...did he keep the beautiful spiral into the 3Lz with his foot above his head?

As for Josh, just wow! He was really on it from the start of this event. I'm so happy for him. I think he was a lot more disappointed than he was letting on about his half-point lost last year, especially since he left points on the table in a couple of places. I'm so pleased he went for it. Shame about the fall on the 4T, he hasn't landed that in competition since Lake Placid, but at least he's getting the full rotations on them and going for them hard. His 3A is so rock solid it's unbelievable. He really has an almost Russian jump technique, which is the highest compliment I can give!

I'm in two minds about his self-choreography, however. I love the programs, the last two seasons have been great, but between Clair de Lune, Bach and Rach, I think he needs to lay off the classical for a while. Or at least have one program where he changes things up and skates to something a bit more "up". I'm certainly inclined to attribute a large part of his artistic improvement since he left Tom Z to his freedom to choreograph (and I think it was an inspired decision by Damon Allen to let Josh do it), but I don't think it would kill him if he had a different choreographer next season. I'd hate to see him go down the Abbott path of "tortured artist".

I'm sure Joshua and Jason are very very happy right now. Hopefully they found some kind of dairy-free gelato or something! It really is thrilling to see them achieve a 1-2 on the world stage, and I can't wait to see them rip up the Senior circuit.

 

[Mrs. P]

Anyone who's seen it...did he keep the beautiful spiral into the 3Lz with his foot above his head?

Yes, he did. He actually moved it to the second half of the program: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjttZqY3rvA#t=02m10s

The judges loved it. he got +1.30 GOE on it. Seven out of the nine judges gave it a +2.

ETA: The judges, on the whole, really liked this program. Josh actually had a 6.41 BV advantage due to putting in the quad and doing major back loading on the program. But Jason actually outdid Josh on +GOE. Jason got +8.22 in GOE including four elements over 1.00 (3A (yay!), 3Z, combo spin and step sequence) vs +3.48 for Josh and two elements with more than 1.00 GOE (on his two 3As.).

That combo botchup in the short did really cost Jason. Between the lost BV (2.80) and the -GOE (1.20) that was exactly four points. Had he done it as he usually does with a minimum amount of GOE (.18 to be precise) he would have won.

 

[karne]

Yes, he did. He actually moved it to the second half of the program: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjttZqY3rvA#t=02m10s

The judges loved it. he got +1.30 GOE on it. Seven out of the nine judges gave it a +2.

ETA: The judges, on the whole, really liked this program. Josh actually had a 6.41 BV advantage due to putting in the quad and doing major back loading on the program. But Jason actually outdid Josh on +GOE. Jason got +8.02 in GOE including four elements over 1.00 vs +3.48 for Josh and two elements with more than 1.00 GOE (on his two 3As.).

*making the twitchy fingers* Must...not...click...video...link...at...work...

ETA: I certainly agree that the botched combo cost Jason. But by the same token, the botched quad also cost Joshua...if they had both skated equally clean I think Josh might have won anyway.

 

[FlattFan]

I'm impressed by Brown. From not having 3A last year, to landing 3/3 here. With + GOE, too.
I was impressed by him when I saw him in SJ last year. He's really special. Special skater. I love his footwork, his transitions.
He should beat Josh in PCS in the SP as well. Oh well, there's a bright future for Brown if he can continue to improve his TES. 2 3x3 combo in the bonus round, how cool is that.

 

[silverlake22]

Have you actually SEEN Jason skate? I mean live... His jumps are not small AT ALL...They have a nice pop and float to them and he has incredibly soft knees on his jump landings along with having some crazy transitions in and out of his jumps. Also, Jason has impecable edge work, much deeper than most of the elite Senior men. I know you are a big Josh fan, but your comments are quite inaccurate in terms of calling Jason's jumps small and saying that Jason doesn't have anything on Josh in regards to PCS (but you also felt that Miner was overscored in relation to Farris at Nationals, which is also inaccurate). There is no current man in the World saving Takahashi who has the magnetism and natural "look at me"-ness that Jason has and he couples that with some crazy hard transitions that actually FIT the music and choreography and well, if this kid can translate that 3A he finally seems to have mastered into at least 1 type of quad, he's going to be tough to beat. I mean really, this kid got a standing ovation his first year at Senior Nationals with NO TRIPLE AXEL...

Yeah I've seen Jason skate at the Galleria in Dallas, it was back in the spring of 2011, his posture and carriage stood out to me but the jumps didn't seem particularly large though I imagine skating in the middle of a mall is difficult. Then I was at Skate for Hope a few months later (2011) and Josh really blew me out of the water. He performed the exhibition piece he did at Nationals this year and his jumps were just a thing of beauty, and really big! But that was quite a long time ago now so anyways.

I don't want people to think of me as a Jason hater because that certainly is not the case, I admire his talent and like his personality. Tastes differ and everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion. I just felt he deservedly placed 2nd at this competition and that ubers saying he totally gave the title away with the SP might not have been looking at the bigger picture. Anyways, to me, Josh fits the mold of how young promising male figure skating stars have generally skated and looked like in the past...idk if it's the ponytail, blue velor outfits, or the gumby moves but Jason's skating does not carry the same kind of masculinity as Josh for me and for whatever reason, I associate masculinity with power so in my mind, I associate Josh as being a more powerful skater than Jason which I think should be reflected in part of the PCS mark and why I think they deserve to have comparable PCS. I get that isn't the most PC thing to say and Jason's flexy moves probably require a ton of strength and power, it perhaps more speaks to the fact that watching him, I am not reminded of past skaters and his skating represents something very new and unique which I am not used to. Perhaps he will set the new standard for men's figure skating in years to come, he certainly has the ability, and if that is the case I think I will become a bigger fan of his in the future. But for now, I guess he's a bit of a very talented enigma for me, whereas watching Josh skate I see similarities to young Boitano, Lysacek, Buttle. But anyways, I'm just so glad they all delivered!!

 

[lakeside]

In the US? What about Hanyu, Takahashi, Fernandez, Chan?

I think s/he means in the US. Well, I agree with your list that Yuzru, Takahashi, and Patrick all have much better skating skills than Jason. Some other Japanese guys like Kozuka and Oda also have better SS than Jason. But it’s odd to put Fernandez there with other good SS guys. Right now Jason already has better SS than Fernandez. He also has better artistry than Fernandez. When Jason goes senior, he should get higher PCS than Fernandez.

 

[Ziggy]

Excuse my ranting, but WHY IS THERE A LIMIT OF THREE SPOTS FOR A COUNTRY THAT'S DOMINATING LIKE JAPAN?!
*rant over

Because killing skating off in developing countries is not a particularly good idea.

Japan is doing fine as it is.

Anyways, to me, Josh fits the mold of how young promising male figure skating stars have generally skated and looked like in the past...idk if it's the ponytail, blue velor outfits, or the gumby moves but Jason's skating does not carry the same kind of masculinity as Josh for me and for whatever reason, I associate masculinity with power so in my mind, I associate Josh as being a more powerful skater than Jason which I think should be reflected in part of the PCS mark and why I think they deserve to have comparable PCS.

Masculinity is not part of the PCS criteria.

(And judging aside, this kind of narrow-minded gender policing makes me really sad. You're expecting skaters to conform to your idea of masculinity and that's really discriminatory.)

 

[silverlake22]

No one has to conform to anything. I said Jason's style is why I don't like his skating as much as Joshua PERSONALLY - I also said people are entitled to their own opinions. To some Jason may seem more masculine than Joshua, it all comes down to personal opinions, honestly comparing the two skaters is like comparing Lysacek and Weir - all I was saying that artistry does not have to come in the form of gumby spins and prettyboy choreo. Just because Jason has it and gets people's attention and Joshua's program is crafted in a more classical style does not automatically make Jason stronger artistically. The music each boy chose to skate to calls on for different types of interpretation anyways. Clearly, the judges see something in Joshua's skating that warrants his PCS marks being comparable to Jason, and similarly the judges are also seeing something in Jason's skating that is preventing his presentation marks from being even higher. This was what got me upset at Nationals too, there's not just one way to be an artistic skater...

 

[Ziggy]

No one has to conform to anything. I said Jason's style is why I don't like his skating as much as Joshua PERSONALLY - I also said people are entitled to their own opinions.

And that is fine. What isn't fine is claiming that a skater deserves to beat another skater because he represents a type of masculinity that you prefer. That is not part of the judging criteria.

all I was saying that artistry does not have to come in the form of gumby spins and prettyboy choreo.

Movement is supposed to reflect the character of the music. Brown's music was longato, soft and languid and his movement was very appropriate to it.

Farris does move in time to the music but he just moves his arms up and down and there isn't really any style to his movement. I would never guess what type of music he was skating to, if you turned the sound off. It's just generic movement, I wish his programs had more character in them.

 

[Serious Business]

Oh my word at Jason Brown's free skate! I am beyond pleased. I mean, just a year ago, everybody including me were wondering if Jason could ever nail down that triple axel, and the attempts this season were close but not quite there. But then, in this competition, he nails three of them! But forget the axels! The whole performance was just grand and royal. So elegant yet forthright. I love the catch foot spiral into the 3flip/.5loop/3salchow at the end. I could go on and on. Jason Brown is a marvelous conductor of the shapes his body makes to music.

Also andat the debate over which one of Jason Brown and Joshua Farris is more masculine. Neither of them are remotely masculine by any stretch of the modern definition. And that's fine! To hell with the gender police!

If I have to compare them, though, and apparently I must, I'll say that I find Farris' movement and style more reserved, considered and held back. He plays it closer to the chest, sometimes literally. This works better for the more contemplative pieces of music he uses, but not the more exuberant ones. Brown, on the other hand, is a lot more forthright, direct and open. There's a lot more confidence behind Jason's every extension.

 

[WeakAnkles]

Because killing skating off in developing countries is not a particularly good idea.

Japan is doing fine as it is.



Masculinity is not part of the PCS criteria.

(And judging aside, this kind of narrow-minded gender policing makes me really sad. You're expecting skaters to conform to your idea of masculinity and that's really discriminatory.)

Bravo! It's 2013. There are gay men and straight men (and probably bisexual men) skating. Who cares? I just want to see good skating. And Jason Brown is extraordinarily good, particularly in his musicality. But if both men continue to progress and improve, I see a terrific rivalry that will benefit ALL skating fans. Not matter who they sleep with!