2013 Junior Worlds Men FS

[karne]

Also senior at the U.S. level =/= senior at the international level. The requirements to pass the senior free skate test is REALLY low, so that's why you have a lot of folks who compete at the senior level nationally but yet remain on the junior circuit internationally. Age limits also have a lot to do with that as well.

Precisely. Just because Russia allows 12 year olds at their Senior Nationals does not mean every country does or should.

 

[silverlake22]

The situation Russia I really find to be puzzling. I know the Federation pays for the training so that explains some of it, but like, if a young child is recognized to have a lot of talent at such a young age, do they let these children like not go to school, or go to a very altered school day so that they can train more? After watching the Russian ladies I can't fathom them being able to keep up that level of skating, or even get to such a level in the first place given their young age, while going to school all day and having to do all the same assignments their classmates struggle to find the time to do without traveling all over the world and spending all those hours training as an elite athlete. In college, fitting it all in is more feasible, and in the US, I know most skaters are homeschooled or do online programs, but I do wonder if such is the case in Russia or if these young girls are at school all day and then fit in the, presumably, 4-5 hours of daily training in between...

 

[let`s talk]

You have GOT to be kidding me, right?! Joshua and Jason are nowhere near the status of "failed Seniors". They are extremely good Juniors who when it came down to it, were asked to stay in Juniors by the USFSA because they DID NOT HAVE ENOUGH GP ASSIGNMENTS TO GO AROUND IF THEY WENT SENIOR. Had Joshua gone Senior, he would have only got one GP (his previous Nationals result was too low), which not only is pointless, but would have damaged his WR. Staying Junior meant two JGPs and JGPF which is miles better for his ranking scores.

You are only making yourself look bad with such a stupid argument. Joshua is the pewter medallist in a US men's field that was pretty good. That's hardly failing.

No, sweetheart, I am not kidding. And the only one who looks bad here is you with your lame name-calling. "Ouch!" You should have known by now that it's hardly a weapon if you wish to talk to me. The "pewter medalist" of US nationals is not much of a title since US have two world spots only. So who cares about number 4. You yourself answered my points- they didn't have good results, so they had to stick in Juniors for obvious reasons. If they had good junior results, they wouldn't need to do that to save their ranking scores. Moreover, they should consider themselves partly lucky with Kovtun out of JWC due to known Russian problems with spots for Sochi.

The situation Russia I really find to be puzzling. I know the Federation pays for the training so that explains some of it, but like, if a young child is recognized to have a lot of talent at such a young age, do they let these children like not go to school, or go to a very altered school day so that they can train more? After watching the Russian ladies I can't fathom them being able to keep up that level of skating, or even get to such a level in the first place given their young age, while going to school all day and having to do all the same assignments their classmates struggle to find the time to do without traveling all over the world and spending all those hours training as an elite athlete. In college, fitting it all in is more feasible, and in the US, I know most skaters are homeschooled or do online programs, but I do wonder if such is the case in Russia or if these young girls are at school all day and then fit in the, presumably, 4-5 hours of daily training in between...

Why didn't you find the situation puzzling in Japan when Asada was doing great in juniors? Or when Yuna was successful at school age, or when Tara won Olympics being a school teen? Oh well people...

 

[dorispulaski]

It's amazing how much US schools will allow you to alter your school day, even for quite low level athletes. Kids in VT who were on ski teams for local mountains used to be allowed to train at the mountain half days 2 or 3 times a week when my youngest was in middle school & competing. This was in the 1980's, but I dare say it's the same now.

The reason this was allowed is that you could only train during winter daylight hours.. Any area of the mountain with lighting at night was full of recreatinal skiers, so there was no night training; the expense was too great.

If you were national, rather than state level, at age 12 or so you went to a private school that was entirely arranged around the kids' training. (Our kid was not that good; he didn't grow till he was out of high school.)

 

[Mrs. P]

It's amazing how much US schools will allow you to alter your school day, even for quite low level athletes. Kids in VT who were on ski teams for local mountains used to be allowed to train at the mountain half days 2 or 3 times a week when my youngest was in middle school & competing. This was in the 1980's, but I dare say it's the same now.

The reason this was allowed is that you could only train during winter daylight hours.. Any area of the mountain with lighting at night was full of recreatinal skiers, so there was no night training; the expense was too great.

If you were national, rather than state level, at age 12 or so you went to a private school that was entirely arranged around the kids' training. (Our kid was not that good; he didn't grow till he was out of high school.)

I've heard a lot about these sports-oriented schools as well. Kaetlyn Osmond attends one of these schools in Alberta (http://vimyridge.epsb.ca/programs_elite.htm), which enables her to have a lot of flexibility for training.

 

[lavender]

it's quite unbelievable. He must have been working ridiculously hard on his flexibility to IMPROVE it as he gets older...that Y-spiral into the 3Lz is breathtaking!

OMG Jason's spiral was amazing. I really took notice because he's even improved his stretch from last year. I don’t remember it being that stretched out and he has one of the best half beilmans I’ve seen.

 

[silverlake22]

When Yuna was a junior the commentators talked about how she trained between 8 pm and midnight and then went to school during the day, often going in late so she could sleep. Because of the conditions in Korea, her training hours were very unusual, and once she got to a really high level I remember hearing that she stopped going to school because she'd train all day, and did her studies on her own, obviously when she went to Canada she continued on that route. The situation in Japan is also different, when Mao was training in California I figured she was doing some kind of home school, and in Japan can't students be going to college technically but if you're an athlete, you major in physical education and it basically means you just train all the time and not are in a full load of academic classes if any at all? I remember hearing someone explaining the system as being like that.

I know in the US, schools are very flexible about working with athletes to accomodate their training schedules. A friend of mine in highschool was a figure skater and never even got out of regionals but the school let her schedule her classes so she got out at 12:20 or 1:25 every day so she could go skate. I know Jason Brown said he goes to school between 8 and 12, and Cheyenne Mountain HS I know has sub-zero class periods I think they call it, that meet very early in the morning, to help accommodate training schedules. In Russia I don't know how the system works though and considering how most things are run there, I wouldn't be surprised if the schedule was more rigid, in which case, athletes being so accomplished at such a young age is truly astonishing if they are fitting in all these training hours between a normal school day and work load.

 

[karne]

You yourself answered my points- they didn't have good results, so they had to stick in Juniors for obvious reasons. If they had good junior results, they wouldn't need to do that to save their ranking scores. Moreover, they should consider themselves partly lucky with Kovtun out of JWC due to known Russian problems with spots for Sochi.

No, now you look foolish again. "they didn't have good results"? Hmm. Let's investigate that, shall we?

Jason 2011-2012 season: JGP AUS - 1st, JGP ITA - 2nd (behind Han Yan), JGPF - 1st (ahead of Han and Joshua), US Nats - 9th (no 3A, 3 falls in LP), JWC - 3rd (behind Han and Joshua).

Joshua 2011-2012 season: JGP SLO - 1st, JGP - 1st, JGPF - 3rd (behind Han), US Nats - 16th (many falls), JWC - 2nd (by half a point behind Han).

Bejeesus. If that's "bad junior results", I shudder to think what "good" Junior results are for you.

This season:

Jason: JGP FRA - 2nd (behind Boyang Jin), JGP TUR - 1st, JGPF - 4th (half a point off the podium), US Nats - 8th (falls, but 3A attempts landed), JWC - 2nd (four points behind Joshua).

Joshua: JGP USA - 1st (by 36 pts), JGP SLO - 1st (by 24pts over Han Yan), JGPF - 2nd (behind Kovtun, but skated his long program suffering an anaphylactic reaction and stuffed full of Benadryl, which makes you drowsy), US Nats - 4th, JWC - 1st.

Kovtun and Joshua have never had a straight fight. Kovtun could consider himself lucky that Joshua was sick on LP day at JGPF, if you want to talk about luck. Or that he was lucky he has the right coach politiking in his corner to give him a Euros and then a Worlds spot he does not deserve...

 

[Mrs. P]

Eh whatever to Kovtun vs. Brown vs. Farris. Kovtum has some good traits but personally, his programs this season are pretty forgettable to me. Kovtun does have decent jumps, so that will serve him well.

FWIW, Jason's record against Kovtun is 1-1. Jason beat Kovtum at the 2011 JGPF (Jason was first, Kovtum was 4th) while Kovtun beat Jason at the 2012 JGPF (with the reverse result).
Josh's record against Kovtum is also 1-1. Josh beat Kovtun, also at hte 2011 JGPF (2nd vs. 4th) and than Kovtum beat Josh (1st vs 2nd for Josh).

So the three of them have only went face to face twice at the last two JGPFs.

 

[silverlake22]

Kovtun has a consistent quad and honestly that and having TAT as a coach raised his PCS to the level of Brown and Farris which I still think is a bit :disapp: because he mostly ignores the music. Compared to last season I don't think Kovtun's SKATING has improved that much honestly, but now that he is landing 4-3s and his 3a is so consistent and he has new coaches with more power, his PCS shot way up so now he can afford to just focus on the jumps because if he lands them the judges will give him marks in the low 7s. I know that is sort of how it works and while I do think he deserved to win the JGPF based on the strength of his jumping and the not so good programs put out by the Americans, I think he is being overmarked in PCS. You would think looking at his marks this season compared to last season he'd have had some artistic breakthrough, but in reality all that happened is the quad and TAT. I think he has artistic potential but it seems like he's not even trying to develop it at this point. Joshua and Jason are more complete skaters and better artistically IMO, even if the PCS marks don't reflect that.

 

[dorispulaski]

Not to be too much of a pain, but when Kovtun won the JGPF against Josh & Jason, his total score was
1 Maxim KOVTUN RUS
222.31 2 1

Which is less than both Josh & Jason had at Jr. Worlds, total.



If you look at his free skate, in which he hit everything, including his 4T3T
1 Maxim KOVTUN RUS 149.78 79.80 69.98 7.14 6.71 7.21 7.04 6.89 0.00 #5

Whereas at Junior Worlds, both Brown & Farris had higher FS scores, and higher PCS.

1 Jason BROWN USA 154.09 81.03 73.06 7.14 7.14 7.50 7.25 7.50 0.00 #24
2 Joshua FARRIS USA 152.48 82.70 70.78 7.14 6.86 7.14 7.11 7.14 1.00 #23

I would say the three guys are at about the same point, scorewise.

 

[silverlake22]

I would agree but I think Kovtun did get level 1 on one of his spins at JGPF, and might have gotten level 2 or 3 on the other two, so he did lose a few points there. Also his lip always gets called so that hurt's him in the SP. If Kovtun was clean with all his jumps he probably could have won WJC, but with a mistake or two he definitely could have lost to Farris and/or Brown. I don't think Kovtun would score a 152 with falling on his quad though or a 154 without attempting one, so he needs all his jumps to be around the same score range. At his first JGP he again scored 149ish for a clean skate with 4t and two 3a.

 

[Mrs. P]

Not to be too much of a pain, but when Kovtun won the JGPF against Josh & Jason, his total score was
1 Maxim KOVTUN RUS
222.31 2 1

Which is less than both Josh & Jason had at Jr. Worlds, total.



If you look at his free skate, in which he hit everything, including his 4T3T
1 Maxim KOVTUN RUS 149.78 79.80 69.98 7.14 6.71 7.21 7.04 6.89 0.00 #5

Whereas at Junior Worlds, both Brown & Farris had higher FS scores, and higher PCS.

1 Jason BROWN USA 154.09 81.03 73.06 7.14 7.14 7.50 7.25 7.50 0.00 #24
2 Joshua FARRIS USA 152.48 82.70 70.78 7.14 6.86 7.14 7.11 7.14 1.00 #23

I would say the three guys are at about the same point, scorewise.

More data:

Kovtun got 72 PCS at Euros:

152.11 79.89 72.22 7.36 6.82 7.43 7.25 7.25

If he did the 3S and not the combo...that score would have been been up to 156.76 (with TES of 84.54).

So it's worth noting that even with two quads (including a 4-3) and two 3A's, he was still only 2.67 and 4.28 points higher than Jason (who had no quads) and Josh (who fell on his), respectively. And when you take out the extra element at the senior level) that gap is even smaller.

So yeah, I'd agree with you.

And FWIW if Jason and Josh's scores would have put them in 4th and 5th in the FS at 4CC and 7th and 8th overall.
I say this with the knowledge that it isn't a PERFECT comparison, but to note that I think they would do relatively well in the GP.

 

[let`s talk]

No, now you look foolish again. "they didn't have good results"? Hmm. Let's investigate that, shall we?

We shall:

asked to stay in Juniors by the USFSA because they DID NOT HAVE ENOUGH GP ASSIGNMENTS TO GO AROUND IF THEY WENT SENIOR. Had Joshua gone Senior, he would have only got one GP (his previous Nationals result was too low), which not only is pointless, but would have damaged his WR. Staying Junior meant two JGPs and JGPF which is miles better for his ranking scores.

So, you are calling yourself foolish when you claimed that they had to stay in Junior to keep their ranking scores up because they had too low results that wouldn't allow them to get enough GPs in Senior? I have absolutely no disagreement on that. Keep arguing with yourself.


Great stars win JWC at 15-16yo as the history proved. At 18-19yo they are fighting in Senoirs for major titles like WC or even OC. Your guys are not of that league and won't be.

They didn't have "straght fight" with Kovtun at GPF? Someone got sick with flu or stomachache or whatever? What a tragedy. Plu was competing for a good deal of his career with much more serious injuries and almost never lost. As I said- your guys are not of that league.

Comparing scores from different events for judging who would have won at another event is the most desperate thing to do. :disapp:

 

[Mrs. P]

We shall:
So, you are calling yourself foolish when you claimed that they had to stay in Junior to keep their ranking scores up because they had too low results that wouldn't allow them to get enough GPs in Senior? I have absolutely no disagreement on that. Keep arguing with yourself.


Great stars win JWC at 15-16yo as the history proved. At 18-19yo they are fighting in Senoirs for major titles like WC or even OC. Your guys are not of that league and won't be.

They didn't have "straght fight" with Kovtun at GPF? Someone got sick with flu or stomachache or whatever? What a tragedy. Plu was competing for a good deal of his career with much more serious injuries and almost never lost. As I said- your guys are not of that league.

Comparing scores from different events for judging who would have won at another event is the most desperate thing to do. :disapp:

i guess we'll see.

We have no idea if Kovtun would definitely have won at JW. Nor would we know if Jason and Josh would have fared at 4CC. But I put the scores out there for the record and as far as SBs, the ISU do make comparisons between competitions regardless if they're junior or senior, so I don't think it's all that out of base to note it. And in the eyes of the ISU, Jason Brown has the No. 13 SB score in the FS, Farris No. 15 and Kovtun. No. 16. Of course Kovtun is going to Worlds, so he'll have a chance to improve on that.

(As an aside, I find it interesting (maybe scary?) that there are three junior skaters (along wtih Aaron, Dornbush and Miner) who have higher SB FS scores than Jeremy...)

I hope all three are at GP this fall so we have a better comparison. Because you are correct that seniors is a different ball of wax than juniors. Kovtun does have the advantage of that extra experience.

And as for history...a trend is a trend until it isn't anymore. Sort of like those stats they pull out during U.S. Presidential Elections -- no person has won the presidency without winning X state...then some presidential candidate defies the trend and wins without that state.

 

[dorispulaski]

Personally, I have seen and made so many bad predictions that I refuse to make any.

I think of Rudy Galindo who won Jr Worlds, and then didn't make it back to Senior Worlds for nearly 10 years. At his first and only Worlds, he won the bronze

I might have thought of Boitano, who like Kovtun, was a guy with good jumps but otherwise kind of blah, until suddenly in his final season, he was much more. Can Kovtun be Boitano?

I think of Menshov, a late bloomer whose fed is giving him no chance at all, really. Could he be a Galindo, if only his fed would give him a chance at Euros or Worlds?

I think of Javier, who did nothing at Jr. Worlds at 16, and who may well win Sr. Worlds this year? Could Jason or Josh be Javier? Or not? Or both?

And Kevin Reynolds, who couldn't make top ten, and just won 4CC's, and may beat the much heralded Patrick Chan at Worlds this year?

Of Stephane Lambiel, who never had a decent 3A, but great artistry & a quad, and whose highest Jr. Worlds placement was fifth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stéphane_Lambiel
Who for me will always be one of the great artists of the sport.

Or Toller Cranston, who never placed higher than third at Worlds or Olympics, who for me is one of the greatest ever

Does being great always mean winning? It doesn't to me.

I see three young guys, all talented in different ways. All of them could eventually be counted among the greats, or none of them may. That is sport, and also life.

At this point, I will rule none of them out as pre-failed and doomed to future failure

 

[Mrs. P]

Personally, I have seen and made so many bad predictions that I refuse to make any.

I think of Rudy Galindo who won Jr Worlds, and then didn't make it back to Senior Worlds for nearly 10 years. At his first and only Worlds, he won the bronze

I might have thought of Boitano, who like Kovtun, was a guy with good jumps but otherwise kind of blah, until suddenly in his final season, he was much more. Can Kovtun be Boitano?

I think of Menshov, a late bloomer whose fed is giving him no chance at all, really. Could he be a Galindo, if only his fed would give him a chance at Euros or Worlds?

I think of Javier, who did nothing at Jr. Worlds at 16, and who may well win Sr. Worlds this year? Could Jason or Josh be Javier? Or not? Or both?

And Kevin Reynolds, who couldn't make top ten, and just won 4CC's, and may beat the much heralded Patrick Chan at Worlds this year?

Of Stefan Lambiel, who never had a decent 3A, but great artistry & a quad, and whose highest Jr. Worlds placement was fifth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stéphane_Lambiel
Who for me will always be one of the great artists of the sport.

Or Toller Cranston, who never placed higher than third at Worlds or Olympics, who for me is one of the greatest ever

Does being great always mean winning? It doesn't to me.

I see three young guys, all talented in different ways. All of them could eventually be counted among the greats, or none of them may. That is sport, and also life.

At this point, I will rule none of them out as pre-failed and doomed to future failure

Exactly. And I also think it's true that winning doesn't always make you great.

 

[AlexRus]

I think of Menshov, a late bloomer whose fed is giving him no chance at all, really.

No, it is not so.
He had many chances but did not use them.
Three Universiads - 11, 11, 7 places.
Five GP Events - no medals.
One Euro - Gachinsky was ahead him (Gachinsky 5th, Menshov 7th), after that Gachinsky had Worlds where earned bronse.
One WTT - last, 12th place of Men.
Very many Senior Bs (up to three in season) - not very good results.
Only twice he was medalist at Nationals (while he took place in all Nationals from 2001 to 2013).
And so on.

What could Fed do more for him?

 

[Mrs. P]

No, it is not so.
He had many chances but did not use them.
Three Universiads - 11, 11, 7 places.
Five GP Events - no medals.
One Euro - Gachinsky was ahead him (Gachinsky 5th, Menshov 7th), after that Gachinsky had Worlds where earned bronse.
One WTT - last, 12th place of Men.
Very many Senior Bs (up to three in season) - not very good results.
Only twice he was medalist at Nationals (while he took place in all Nationals from 2001 to 2013).
And so on.

What could Fed do more for him?

That's why Doris said he's a late bloomer. Late bloomer, in essence, means that the results didn't come by right away. I think what the Fed could have done for him was send him to Euros as Russia No. 3, because, well, he finished third at Nationals and had a decent GP -- even if he didn't medal, he did a respectable job against stacked fields in both completions. I know that us U.S. fans debate up and down about using Nationals as the prime Worlds/Olympic qualifier, but it does make things quite straight forward -- and less anti-climatic. (Unless the scoring is all a whack, which is another discussion).

Instead you get this: "Oh, you won the bronze medal? Congrats, but we still don't think you're good enough so we're sending this guy instead even though he finished behind you."

Besides, quite frankly, and perhaps I'm more biased because I saw the guy live at SA, but to me, Menshov's programs are a lot more memorable than Kovtun's. And he has really nice jumps.

 

[Mrs. P]

Jason Brown's final blog posts is posted on ice network: http://www.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130225&content_id=41967172&vkey=ice_news

His thoughts on the free skate:

I was last to skate, and I knew I had the opportunity to help make history and be part of the first men's sweep from any country. The arena was silent as I got into my starting position ... by the end, I had tears in my eyes. I have been working so hard this entire season, struggling to master and integrate a new jump, and to successfully perform the way I've dreamt was so overwhelming and emotional.

The three of us finished one (Josh), two (me), three (Shotaro). We were very proud to sweep the podium, all so honored to be representing Team USA ... definitely an experience I will never forget.

It sounds like he's pretty happy with the way things turned out.