2013 Worlds Ladies SP

[ForeverFish]

^^^^This! (Robeye's comment)

All I know is that Carolina can't make the same mistake tomorrow and expect to repeat as World Champion. In fact, if she has anything more than a few stumbles, she may be off of the podium completely.

 

[aftertherain]

I don't disagree with that. What I disagree with is that, in practice, second tier skaters DO take the hit in PCS and the very top skaters do not. Kind of how Mao can get +GOE for doubling an intended triple or landing a two-footed 3A; if Gracie landed a flawed 3A she would not get +GOE. It starts to become too difficult for skaters to move up the ranks. For example:

2013 Euros SP: Clean Adelina vs Carolina with 1 fall, PCS difference ~1.5 points
2013 Worlds SP: Adelina with UR/2ft 3T vs Carolina with 1 fall, PCS difference ~5.2

So someone like Adelina gets slammed on TES and PCS with an error, whereas someone like Carolina only takes the hit on TES.

But then you have to ask: Are Adelina's skating skills, transitions, etc as good as Carolina's to warrant equal footing? I'm not good with that sort of stuff, so I'm hoping someone else can answer those questions.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

But then you have to ask: Are Adelina's skating skills, transitions, etc as good as Carolina's to warrant equal footing? I'm not good with that sort of stuff, so I'm hoping someone else can answer those questions.

Maybe, maybe not. We all agree that Carolina and a few others get the same PCS whether they are clean or not. Outside that select group, skaters have more variation in PCS depending upon whether they are clean.

 

[ForeverFish]

Maybe, maybe not. We all agree that Carolina and a few others get the same PCS whether they are clean or not. Outside that select group, skaters have more variation in PCS depending upon whether they are clean.

But then I can't explain how Gracie was within .03 of Adelina, PCS-wise. I love Gracie dearly, but IMO, her artistic skills are nowhere near Adelina's. Did one or both of them take the hit on PCS for missing their technical elements?

 

[bara1968]

She fell. Wouldn't that be reflected a little more in the TES than in PCS?

Also, like one poster pointed out earlier: Her 3T-3T combination was one element out of seven. There are five total PCS scores. That makes twelve marks. Just because you make a mistake on one mark does not mean that should necessarily reflect greatly on the eleven other marks. Now, if a skater has fallen twice or more, THEN there's a major problem.

And if we're talking about technical goods, Yuna's spins are definitely not what they used to be. Her first spin looked slow and labored. I noticed that her aerial position on the 3Lz was weird, and another poster mentioned that Yuna said that she nearly missed her 3Lz--but she made it look effortless nonetheless and was justly rewarded for it.

Yes, it was reflected in TES. (though not fully, in my opinion.) But I believe that it should be reflected in PCS at least littlebit. The reason is because of this fall, Caro's flow-choreo bothered. I know your point, but TES is related to PCS. They are not completely independent to each other, since well-executed tech element clearly affect execution of following choreography/interpretation etc.. My point is/was that Caro here got more PCS than flawless olympic Yuna SP, even with the mistake (for me, negative factor for PCS.). (I am repeating it because kwanatic was comparing two Yunas, which was not my intension.) If Caro's PCS were the score already reflecting her fall, then I would simply say that Yuna's should be still bit higher than what she got, to be fair.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I doubt that the edge call in the SP affected her so much that she fell on the 3F in the LP.

A call like this absolutely affects you as a skater, and certainly it did for Yu-Na. She never missed the 3F in her career (maybe once?) and then suddenly started having problems on it after the 2008-2009 season when she got all those edge calls. The same thing happened at the 2009 GPF, where she received a ridiculous < call for her 3Toe in combination in the SP and it threw her off so much that she was clearly off in her timing, overthinking the process, and missed both 3Toe combinations during the LP.

I hope the undeserved call Yu-Na received in the SP at this competition doesn't throw her off in the LP...even though her program is boring anyway and I'd prefer it if Murakami somehow managed to win Gold.

 

[kwanatic]

From what I understand, a fall or jump error is supposed to be reflected in TES and TES only; it's not supposed to be reflected in PCS though I think it should seeing as how that is the "presentation" mark. Look at the definition of what each component stands for.

http://gofigureskating.com/compete/scoring.html

I don't think it's right but apparently if your TES suck, that doesn't necessarily mean your PCS will or even should...

 

[Krislite]

[...]

And if we're talking about technical goods, Yuna's spins are definitely not what they used to be. Her first spin looked slow and labored. I noticed that her aerial position on the 3Lz was weird, and another poster mentioned that Yuna said that she nearly missed her 3Lz--but she made it look effortless nonetheless and was justly rewarded for it.

It was the wonky landing on the flying camel that threw her off and slowed the rotation. She wasn't the only one having camel spin problems in this competition, though, which was unusual.

As for the Lutz, it looked fine. Her axis straightened up a bit at the top of the jump, but it wasn't a flaw. (I think Tonya Harding's axis in her 3Axel does the same thing.) She actually landed one the best 3Lz+3T she's ever done, IMO.

 

[babyalligator]

You're not the only one. I have never particularly cared for Carolina and her skating. One of the most overrated skaters in modern times. Her skills are NOT head and shoulders above the other top ladies. It seems on these forums though, just as in the technical panel and judging boxes, that there is some sort of mass delusional rapture going on. Kindly pass me some of whatever good stuff it is that you all are smoking, and maybe I'll "see the light" too.

I agree. I have never understood the appeal of Kostner. Do I think she deserved to place 2nd in the SP over Murakami? Absolutely not.

 

[FlattFan]

In my comparison before, I pointed out that Caro's PCS was higher than Yuna's olmpic PCS to make my point. Given that Caro's performance with major mistake does not deserve to get higher PCS than Yuna olympic SP PCS, I do think that it was either Yuna's underscored or Caro's overscored. (Actually they are vice-versa.)

Then you haven't looked at what PCS stand for.
Caro's SS here is better than Yuna's SS at the Olympics.
Caro's CH and IN here are also better.
Caro's TR here is roughly the same.
Caro's P/E here is worse.

So she deserved better PCS.

Also, Yuna's best SP was World 2009, that was her absolute best SP, much better program than the Bond SP, and she didn't get as high PCS. Just to say scores fluctuate between event.

 

[jenaj]

I have to laugh at the Yu Na fans who are all up in arms about an edge call! OMG, she would have been first if she had been scored correctly! Oh wait....
Leaving aside whether she deserved the e, incorrect judging tends to even itself out--surely no one is saying that Yu Na has never been slightly overmarked. (remember when she placed first in the LP at 2010 Worlds with a fall after Mao did 2 triple axels?) Unless the judges are out to get Yu Na--which clearly they are not--then she and her fans should take the bad calls with the good. That's skating--and sports.

 

[Robeye]

From what I understand, a fall or jump error is supposed to be reflected in TES and TES only; it's not supposed to be reflected in PCS though I think it should seeing as how that is the "presentation" mark. Look at the definition of what each component stands for.

http://gofigureskating.com/compete/scoring.html

I don't think it's right but apparently if your TES suck, that doesn't necessarily mean your PCS will or even should...

It's almost like interpreting the US Constitution, in the attempt to extract specific actionable rules for application from the broad wording of principles .

My view is that the effect of an obvious fall (again, as distinct from technical imperfections that do not affect the performance aspects such as "<" or "e" or two-footing, etc.) are covered under:

1) Performance/Execution
-Projection (under the logic that there is no projection while doing a frozen backstroke on your fanny, unless you're Sasha Cohen)

2) Choreography
-Proportion
-Unity
-Phrasing and form (movements and parts structured to match the phrasing of the music)

3)Interpretation
-Effortless movement in time to the music

 

[venlac]

Then you haven't looked at what PCS stand for.
Caro's SS here is better than Yuna's SS at the Olympics.
Caro's CH and IN here are also better.
Caro's TR here is roughly the same.
Caro's P/E here is worse.

So she deserved better PCS.

Also, Yuna's best SP was World 2009, that was her absolute best SP, much better program than the Bond SP, and she didn't get as high PCS. Just to say scores fluctuate between event.

yuna had cleaned bondgirl in olympics.(High Technical elements)
And that score has included Olympic inflation.

(1 fall)Carolina deserves get a higher PCS than that..?

 

[aftertherain]

--Just to get everyone on the same page, so y'all can argue your PCS hearts out:

World Championships 2013, Short Program (PCS): http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2013/wc2013_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf

1. Yuna Kim - 33.18
   • Skating Skills - 8.39
   • Transitions/Linking - 8.07
   • Performance/Execution - 8.32
   • Choreography/Composition - 8.36
   • Interpretation - 8.32
2. Carolina Kostner - 33.85
   • Skating Skills - 8.46
   • Transitions/Linking - 8.21
   • Performance/Execution - 8.43
   • Choreography/Composition - 8.57
   • Interpretation - 8.64

Winter Olympics 2010, Short Program (PCS): http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2010/owg10_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf

1. Yuna Kim - 33.80

• Skating Skills - 8.60
• Transitions/Linking - 7.90
• Performance/Execution - 8.60
• Choreography/Composition - 8.40
• Interpretation - 8.75

Conclusion: After a one-year hiatus, Yuna's PCS has decreased in everything but transitions/linking footwork (in which FOUR out of nine judges gave her marks in the 7.0-7.9 range while the rest gave her mark from 8.0 to 8.25 at the Olympics). Comparing Carolina's PCS marks to Yuna's, she has scored higher in TWO out of FIVE component marks: TR (8.21 > 7.90), CH (8.57 > 8.40). However, she has also scored lower in SS (8.46 < 8.60), PE (8.43 < 8.60), and IN (8.64 < 8.75). Therefore, comparing numbers, she scored 0.05 higher here than Yuna in the 2010 Olympics mostly because Yuna's transitions were lacking.

 

[Eclair]

--Just to get everyone on the same page, so y'all can argue your PCS hearts out:

World Championships 2013, Short Program (PCS): http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2013/wc2013_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf

1. Yuna Kim - 33.18
   • Skating Skills - 8.39
   • Transitions/Linking - 8.07
   • Performance/Execution - 8.32
   • Choreography/Composition - 8.36
   • Interpretation - 8.32
2. Carolina Kostner - 33.85
   • Skating Skills - 8.46
   • Transitions/Linking - 8.21
   • Performance/Execution - 8.43
   • Choreography/Composition - 8.57
   • Interpretation - 8.64

Winter Olympics 2010, Short Program (PCS): http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2010/owg10_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf

1. Yuna Kim - 33.80

• Skating Skills - 8.60
• Transitions/Linking - 7.90
• Performance/Execution - 8.60
• Choreography/Composition - 8.40
• Interpretation - 8.75

Conclusion: After a one-year hiatus, Yuna's PCS has decreased in everything but transitions/linking footwork (in which FOUR out of nine judges gave her marks in the 7.0-7.9 range while the rest gave her mark from 8.0 to 8.25 at the Olympics). Comparing Carolina's PCS marks to Yuna's, she has scored higher in TWO out of FIVE component marks: TR (8.21 > 7.90), CH (8.57 > 8.40). However, she has also scored lower in SS (8.46 < 8.60), PE (8.43 < 8.60), and IN (8.64 < 8.75). Therefore, comparing numbers, she scored 0.05 higher here than Yuna in the 2010 Olympics mostly because Yuna's transitions were lacking.

Just a question out of curiosity: Is it normal that Skating Skills increase or decrease so much? Judging from what it sounds like, I would have thought that it's more of a steady factor or am I wrong?

 

[aftertherain]

What's wrong with these fans? Yuna should get 104 for the SP? Did Michelle ever run around and say, "Meh, I thought I would get 6.0s across the board. How come I only get one 6.0?"
Good grief!

Michelle didn't, but her fans probably did. Shoot, I know I did. Don't blame me, I was just a kid and she was like Wonder Woman to me.

 

[Icey]

Kim's layback spin got goe's ranging from 0 to 3. weird judging. I have a recommendation to make about situations like this. But the ISU definitely needs to address this before the Slolympics (and yes I meant to spell it that way) lol

 

[FlattFan]

Michelle didn't, but her fans probably did. Shoot, I know I did. Don't blame me, I was just a kid and she was like Wonder Woman to me.

Didn't someone report Kim wasn't happy with her score. And said so?

 

[cheerio2]

What's wrong with these fans? Yuna should get 104 for the SP? Did Michelle ever run around and say, "Meh, I thought I would get 6.0s across the board. How come I only get one 6.0?"
Good grief!

Actually, I recall that Michelle occasionally would give the thumbs down in the kiss & cry if she thought her scores were too low. I actually think Yuna's score was about right, as kwanatic pointed out the PCS was less than a point off her olympic PCS and quite reasonable given that she was off for two years and her skate order.

That said, I don't begrudge her right to express her opinion about her scores, and in fact I wish more skaters would do so. It's like the workplace. If you don't think you deserved a particular work evaluation, you should say something. It may or may not help, but if you say nothing, your boss will think you have no problem with getting the evaluation you got.

 

[aftertherain]

Didn't someone report Kim wasn't happy with her score. And said so?

I think she said she thought she got her score because of a botched/weird spin, but that wasn't the case. It might've been because of something entirely unexpected, like her 3F. Let me try to find the article.

Here:

http://www.lfpress.com/2013/03/14/yuna-kim-showing-no-signs-of-rust-at-worlds

"When I first heard the score, I was a little bit surprised," Kim said. "My first thought was perhaps my spin wasn't good enough (that) I got downgraded for that. However, on the screen, I checked and it wasn't really something I was expecting. In the end, I was a little surprised but I know I tried my best so I have no regret."

Kim was encouraged by how she fought to hold onto that wonky-feeling spin.