2014 Nebelhorn Trophy | Page 18 | Golden Skate

2014 Nebelhorn Trophy

No Chan did not need a quad. If his triple axels were better he absolutely would never had needed one. Doesn't look like has Brown chan level trouble with 3a. Fernandez has major stamina problems and hanyu may be the only reason brown may ever add a quad when he goes to worlds. But a quad isn't easy. Hanyu makes a lot of mistakes wih them and like has been said going smaller and cleaner can win. I am not saying brown winning worlds would be a lanslide! It could be a lysacek style victory over plushenko. Lysacek won proving quads were meaningless in skating.
Evan won over Plushy when the quads were not high rewarded as they are now aday. Rules change all the time. The way I see it now, unless ISU issued some rule about quad limits for men, there are guys who are going for 4 quads a long (hello Russian men).

About no quad... Teb 2013 where Hanyu failed 2 quads, his TES was 87.28, and Jason's was 78.20. And the judges gave them the same PCS there.
 
Not with me. He learns at his own pace. He's not Max, no one is trying to make him into Max. I'm just pointing out something that I see as a necessity to be at the top with the current field.

His jumps can be a tad smaller than others, but he makes up for it with interesting entrances and exits and positions in the jump. It's who he is. Can they get better? Sure. Will I enjoy him any less if they don't? Definitely not.

And it is what it is really. Honestly I don't give it all that much thought or worry. His team seems to know what they are doing and they are in this for the long haul. Im not really fretting about him getting that quad, he is still a delight to watch. Id rather just watch him and see things unfold than ring my hands about bloody quads. I don't think he needs the quad right now, and frankly think that long term strategically the longer he can get by without it, the better it will be for him in the long run.

I guess to me the fact that we did not see it today. . . means absolutely nothing to me. I don't see it as a refection on his ability to do it, or the likelihood of doing it at worlds. He did not need it, and doing it here would not have really gotten him anything. The more people talk about him not doing a quad. . . the more of a trump card his first quad becomes. Can you imaging him landing his first quad in the free at worlds after another grand prix season of complaining about lack? They will put it in when the time is right. . . I don't care if in secret he is landing 4z-4t combinations with ease while hung over. . . there would be no reason to have put it in today.

Honestly I find all the focus on this one area a bit bemusing in the end.
 
These are very good points. The Chan Hanyu rivalry of both doing quads may have inflated the quad numbers. Fernandez vs hanyu or whatever may mean quads plummet. Even though ur plus fall meant zero points people still believed quads were mandatory to win in Vancouver. Everyone was saying after 2009 worlds quad was mandated in vancouver. Of course only one medalist did one. No one can ever say anything is necessary.
You don't get it. No one say quad is a must for men. If anyone said it, then it's not me. If you don't want to put quad in, no problem. I enjoy Jason with no quad very much.

The thing is, the days when no quad in long can easily win a major competition like GPF or Worlds have long gone, due to the new rules and the new trend.

People are just saying, in order to win major competitions, quad is favorable. Even if the international judges give some no quad programs 90PCS, there are many top guys can still triumph that PCS by their TES.
Javi, Hanyu, Denis Ten, Machida, Kozuka, Kovtun... All are capable of getting much higher TES than Jason, not to mention they have better speed. We can't expect all these guys to bomb all their quads in one major competition so no quad can easily medal.

Remember Sochi when all the guys had meltdown? The top 3 still got at least 1 of their quad done in their long. And Sochi was the tedious of tedious, we couldn't expect more. Maybe Worlds 2013? They still get their quads done there, as well as other jumps (except PChan, okay). I mean the probability of at least 7 top guys failed all their quads and other big jumps are not very realistic. It's just pure math.

And I am saying this as someone who enjoys Jason's skating.
 
The way I see it now, unless ISU issued some rule about quad limits for men, there are guys who are going for 4 quads a long (hello Russian men).

Yikes! I'd be worried about skaters being exhausted, falling left and right, and in danger of seriously injuring themselves if they attempt 4 quads and do other jumps and elements! :eek:
 
Yikes! I'd be worried about skaters being exhausted, falling left and right, and in danger of seriously injuring themselves if they attempt 4 quads and do other jumps and elements! :eek:
You don't know? I've read about those 4 quads a LP in some interview.
And Plushy is still dreaming about 5 quad a LP. :biggrin: He even said there will be a day when 5 quad LP become the norm. :rolleye: Maybe that's day will become true when we are all cyborgs.
 
You don't know? I've read about those 4 quads a LP in some interview.
And Plushy is still dreaming a out 5 quad a LP. :biggrin: He even said there will be a day when 5 quad LP is the norm.

So should we assume those programs will (in random order) look something like

4T
4T+3T
4S
4S+3L
3Z
3F
3A
2A+ a 1/2 Loop 2S type sequence tacked on possibly on one of the triples instead.

Is anyone doing quad flips or lutzs with enough consistency worth talking about?

Does anyone have the 4L yet or is that still talk?

I wonder when we will see quad quad combos. . . i would think that will come before quints or quad axles.


Most of all I wonder how many of them can get positive GOE on four quads in a long program more than once in a season.

edit. . . how many more parts does Plushy need to replace to become a cyborg?
 
^^^oh please, don't take those Russian men's obsession with quads too serious. You think they will try 4 quads a long with their inconsistency? :unsure: they only said it's their dream. But who knows... Maybe someone who is crazy enough might try. :scowl: so scared for their bodies.
 
^^^oh please, don't take those Russian men's obsession with quads too serious. You think they will try 4 quads a long with their inconsistency? :unsure: they only said it's their dream. But who knows... Maybe someone who is crazy enough might try. :scowl: so scared for their bodies.

It is rather sad in someways. A lot of them likely feel like they are choosing between a life of pain with a medal or a life of regret but being able to walk not in pain. . .
 
It is rather sad in someways. A lot of them likely feel like they are choosing between a life of pain with a medal or a life of regret but being able to walk not in pain. . .
Well, their most successful skaters are walking in pain so... What would they do when they have Yagudin and Plushenko as role models? :p
 
Here is the report about the Pairs, men will come tomorrow with an interview of the top three.

Pairs SP detailed summary.

1. Yuko Kavagutchi / Alexander Smirnov [66.59]

Alex said after the program that there is still stuff to improve, nontheless did they land all their difficult elements such as the triple toe which was wonderfully performed by both of them, a level 4 lift (hand to hip) and Yuko also landed the triple loop flawlessly.

What I always enjoy with that couple is that they do really look great on the ice, he does take good care of her and she is quite a charming character as well. I honestly cant imagine seeing them with a different partner than their current, they are just made for each other somehow.

Yuko & Alex decided to take the same music like last year while not going for the vocal opportunity that they had and Yuko explained this with the long time injury that they had the past season.

We couldn't really use our music last season so we felt that it might be a good idea to use the same now and hopefully we will be able to compete with it and not just run shows.

Alex added to this,
hopefully we will be less nervous next time we skate as it wasn't such an easy skate after the long time out from competitions.

2. Evgenia Tarasova / Vladimir Morozov [65.74]

I have to say I really like that pair a lot, especially Evgenia has a charming attitude! While having the press conference Vladimir handed her the mic and she just refused to grab it, saying that she didnt want to talk.
But guess what, once she actually had the microphone in her hands she couldnt stop talking.

But lets take a closer look now to their actual program first.

I felt that they had some wonderful music to skate to, especially the vocals worked amazingly well. You really bought it the lyrics said "fly" --> she was lifted up sky high (hand to hip level4).

Asking Evgenia about their great musical choice she said,
we were actually looking for fitting music for quite some time and then all of a sudden we found this piece and enjoyed it a lot while we were listening to it.

She explained their decision like that,
You must like the music as a skater if you want to skate well to it.

So they went to the coaches and they gave their approval.

Besides the wonderful music, also their elements were performed lovely and in high quality. Their triple twist for instance was amazing, not only in height but also when he caught her so softly - like a butterfly, a very well deserved level 4.

The spins also, they were always in sync, there was hardly something to criticise.

That said Valdimir mentioned that they are not done yet and that there is still work to do.

We had a few errors today and we need to work on fixing them throughout the season.

He was referring to a few of the timings at some elements and the loop where Evgenia had to go really deep to put it on the ice.

Personally my favorite pair that evening, they understand well how to use the new rules to their advantage and they do have a nice harmony on the ice.

3. Alexa Scimeca / Chris Knierim [55.29]

Fans of Alexa and Chris might have been a bit confused about their musical choice she said, after all they were known for having more quiet stuff but this time they wanted to let the cat out of the basket so to speak and went for a stronger musical support which can actually support their choreographie a lot better.

Alexa said,

We are quite pleased by the ability to have vocal support now in Pair Skating. I would had added more already but the program was already done so the chance came a bit too late for us. That said, we decided to change our more quiet attitude on the ice into a more stronger performance and for that purpose the Tango of Roxanne was chosen.

The Americans started with an amazing level 4 twist, that height - wow! Like he wanted to throw her through the roof. Chris said later that this is an element they have been working on since last season so he was very pleased that they finally got that level 4 and based on the hight the ISU might need to add a level 5 someday especially for them.

The rest of the program sadly wasnt fawless, they struggled a bit with their jump elements such as the triple Sal.
Alexa was hesitating before the take off and then got all her timings wrong and fell.

Also to note is that their triple flip was a mess, sorry but there is no other word for that. How can you throw a girl away like that, oh god - there was absolutely no way that she could land this element. Chris still saw something positive in their mistakes.
At least we stayed focused throughout the whole program, we didn't let ourselves go and stayed focused and fought back and managed to put the program on the ice.

4. Vanessa James / Morgan Cipres [55.18]

Honestly, they can do so much better but it just wasnt their day. Their side by side toe was planned as a triple but she only doubled the element. Also the twist only received a level two, it just didnt work out. That said, from the moment on that Vanessa landed the triple Flip their program improved greatly. All of the following elements received a level 4, i liked especially the stepsequence and their combination spins - all very much in sync.

I do hope they will do much better in the FS, I like those two a lot.

5. Madeline Aaron / Max Settlage [51.80]

The Americans started out with a level one twist, followed by a triple Loop that she landed well. Sadly she didnt do the same with the Sal later. What I liked about them is that even though they had mistakes the positive vibes and energy stayed. Interesting pose at the end with her leg up as well.

6. Vanessa Grenier / Maxim Deshamps [50.67]

I like it a lot that Maxim just never stops smiling, he is such a positive character on the ice. Not so positive was his catch as there was pretty much none and she landed on his shoulders after the twist. The triple sal was a lot better and she landed it witout too many problems, more problems they had with the side by side toe where she overrotated, bad GOE but it still was a triple.

A couple which is an enjoyable watch if you ask me.

7. Narumi Takahashi / Ryuichi Kihara [46.83]

Another pleasent couple, they are still very young and you can see this quite well but not in a negative way. They are very cute on the ice and therefore went more for the smaller elements so to speak. A double twist which received level two, so did the death spiral. Their best element was the level 4 lift, she wasnt scared at all there or she was because right after the triple Sal was kinda shaky.

8. Maria Paliakova / Nikita Bochkov [46.37]

I need to make them a huge compliment. The Belarussians really made a huge step forward compared to the last season, especially Nikita.

Honestly, a few years ago whenever he lifted her up it was a moment where I was actually scared it just looked so weird, like he was afraid to really grab her and keep her up. I mean he never let her fall down, at least that I know but ya it was so shaky every time.

Today however this wasnt the case at all. Their hand to hip was really good especially in combination with the music - I liked that part a lot.

What I also liked a lot and I say this every time , the moment she lands that triple loot - its like the sun comes out. Huge smile in the crowd, absolutely amazing. Its a bit like her trademark and while you want that all skaters land their jumps, with Maria you want it just a tiny bit more.

Back to Nikita, as I said he looked a lot more stable today than all the last seasons together. One mistake he made, which was the missed catch after their triple twist but ya they seem to finally make some huge progress, they started to groove in so to speak and this is lovely to see as I like them as a couple a lot.
They seem to get along quite well if you ask me, its a bit like the big bear protecting the little kitten, I know it sounds totally crazy but ya its late at night so you need to give me that.

In future they need to gain some levels in the stepsequence as this was just a poor level one, it often seemed to be a mix of elements with no real idea behind it ( sorry for the harsh words) but also their syncronicity at the pair spin needs some work.

I am very curious about what they have in store tomorrow and wish them a healthy skate.

9. Amani FANCY / Christopher BOYADJI [45.50]

They didnt had such a good start unfortunately, the double twist was actually ok but the axel was only performed as a single by her so that it was kicked out of the score sheet.
In general she was really unhappy about her performance and I really hope Christopher will cheer her up a bit and she should always remember that she somehow managed to land that triple Sal because the throw was not good at all.

She is such a lovely girl and I hope she will not take it too hard, there is always another day and another skate.

10. Paris STEPHENS / Matthew DODDS [31.09]

They were a fun to watch pair. First they were really focused on what they had to do but as the program went on and the elements more or less worked out in one way or the other, the smiles started coming out.

These two have something that I like, kind of the Aussie attitude but they definately need to work on their stamina, they did just run out of steam towards the end, besides that gaining some more levels should lift their scores up as most were just a level one today.


I hope this gave you some background info and that it was a good recap of what happened, GN. ;)
 
Thank you Alex for your report. I was not able to watch today and reading your report was a treat!

I will have to catch up.
 
:love: Jason!


:cry: Andrew! Don't look so sad! It wasn't that bad!
 
No one said anyone must have quads. If someone don't want then it is his decision and we can still enojy his skating, but... this is competition and everyone inside wants to have a quads. From many yeras now, quads is the key word when you think about mens field, don't lie you think diffrent. For me quads is what getting mens level higher, making them let's say gladiators of the field to battle. Of course artistry etc. But it is men field, men competition and it MUST be full of athletic power.

If Jason is thinking about any succes in future on world level he will not need to have 1 quad, he will need 2 or even 3 in LP. That's the reality. Of course you can rely that others will bomb, but true competitor don't want to think to rely on others, but to rely on himself.
 
No one said anyone must have quads. If someone don't want then it is his decision and we can still enojy his skating, but... this is competition and everyone inside wants to have a quads. From many yeras now, quads is the key word when you think about mens field, don't lie you think diffrent. For me quads is what getting mens level higher, making them let's say gladiators of the field to battle. Of course artistry etc. But it is men field, men competition and it MUST be full of athletic power.

If Jason is thinking about any succes in future on world level he will not need to have 1 quad, he will need 2 or even 3 in LP. That's the reality. Of course you can rely that others will bomb, but true competitor don't want to think to rely on others, but to rely on himself.

I don't think Jason or his team ever said that he didn't need the quad. I think the main point is that Jason and Jason's team has never been one to follow the "shouldas" and "wouldas" but rather stick to their long-term plans. What does he have to gain by forcing a quad when it's not ready?

The end game, as they've mentioned, is 2018 Olympics. They are thinking of this endgame, not obsessing over what other skaters are doing or some sort of standard.

He said as much in an article in International Figure Skating: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BskR-f4IQAALknD.jpg

(screenshot)

"To have longevity in this sport, you have to train smart and not take shortcuts. The day I get the quad in practice, it will be in my program the next day, and it will be consistent. When you force something, there is always repercussion."

Kori has talked a lot about the integrity of the program. Basically we've seen what happens with some skaters who hit the quad then make errors elsewhere. I think she doesn't want Jason to make silly mistakes or give up on the program because there's too much focus on the quad.

In addition, it's worth noting that Jason has managed to avoid major injuries. There's a reason for that.
 
So. . . what's up with the no explanation for the rule 709 deduction until after the free? Is this normal? A rule? Has anyone had any fun theorizing what the story is?
 
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