Yes, another :thumbsup: for sisinka. I learn so much when reading your posts! When I first started watching skating a few years ago, I couldn't have cared less for ice dance, but the more skating I watch the more I enjoy and appreciate what ice dancers do.
2014 Skate America FD 10/25
- Thread starter dorispulaski
- Start date
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
This is not just me saying it.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ipomrPaKICE
http://www.science4all.org/le-nguyen-hoang/newtons-laws/
This is not an opinion.
Conservation of momentum works.
Newton's second law works.
Physics education is at a low state in my country, and I will not have Newton's work called into question in the non-relativistic regime, thus undoing years of patient physics professors' efforts to drum these simple but some what counter-intuitive facts of science into students' heads.
An upward hop or jump does not give you forward momentum. It gives you upward momentum.
Now toe pushing can change your speed across the ice, although it is extremely inefficient way to accelerate forward. You do not need to hop to toe push, and you do not need to toe push to hop.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ipomrPaKICE
http://www.science4all.org/le-nguyen-hoang/newtons-laws/
This is not an opinion.
Conservation of momentum works.
Newton's second law works.
Physics education is at a low state in my country, and I will not have Newton's work called into question in the non-relativistic regime, thus undoing years of patient physics professors' efforts to drum these simple but some what counter-intuitive facts of science into students' heads.
An upward hop or jump does not give you forward momentum. It gives you upward momentum.
Now toe pushing can change your speed across the ice, although it is extremely inefficient way to accelerate forward. You do not need to hop to toe push, and you do not need to toe push to hop.
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- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
That is an excellent point. I agree.
Although, ... it would be cool to see a dance couple actually undertake Das Fledermaus. Let's see, a guy goes to a Halloween party dressed as a bat, gets drunk, and is abandoned by his friend. The bat seeks revenge, plots to get the guy arrested, but instead of submitting to arrest the friend goes off to a party thrown by the Prince (the Prince is a mezzo-soprano voice, so the role is usually taken by a woman dressed as a man). When the police arrive another friend pretends to be the miscreant and is carried off to jail so as not to get the real guy in trouble with his wife -- who in any case is having an affair with the piano teacher.
Something like that? Meryl and Charlie could definitely pull it off. :yes:
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- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
to both TontoK and Mathman. I would pay to see that program!
Newton was right of course, I respect him and everybody else who learns Newton’s laws.
And I agree that figure skating has a lot to do with physics.
But come to aplication of Newton’s law in reality.
What you with Mr. Newton describe is jump which is done strightly upward with no speed before it, but you (and Newton probably never thought about ice skating) forgot that skater jumps in direction of upward and forward because he/she already has some speed going into the jump/hoops.
You also forget that skating is not walking…you can’s loose opening speed walking, but you can easily loose opening speed when you skate not having great edges. So being in the air is a moment when you are not in risk of loosing speed (because of having poor knee or edge’s work while skating).
How would you use Mr. Newton’s law explaining long jumpers? If you say that anyone who jump must go up only and not forward, how is it possible that Mike Powell jumped 8.95m. If the only thing which would be important was Newton’s second law, who was suppossed to jump up and down doing 0 m.
And do you realise that even High jumpers must jump over the bar which means that they must jump not only up but also backward (using Fosbury Flop)…with using Newton’s law only they would jump up and down – and fall on their back side aproximatelly on the place the take off was done from. Watching High jump competitions, I never noticed that situation would happen.
And now realise that skater has two legs – one leg – standing leg which does a take off and second leg – free leg may help to get into right direction. (In athletics during Long jump the free leg goes much more forward, while in High jump the free leg goes much more upward to get bigger heights). Surprising?
Let’s jump on the ice…
...Tuktamysheva’s triple lutz…
(I used Open Test Skate SP, because camera was not moving…watch people behind the board, Liza goes up to the air when she is on the level of tall man in red jacket and lands the jump when she is on the level of man in dark jacket…so she travelled forward – in this case backward)
...Madison and Evan’s jump…(once again camera being on one place, and watch letters on the board – they start the jump when Madison is on the level of “P“ in word Progressive and lands the hoop when Madison is over last letter in this word)
…comparing single skaters who makes three rotations (so they loose a lot of energy in making those rotations – which is visible in landing of the jump when they have almost no speed to make proper exit arc) against people who make maximally up to one rotation or no rotation is not the best example of course.
How do you explain Todd Eldredge and his beautiful Russian split jumps…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctUV_ZoCzmc&feature=player_detailpage#t=365
…how is it possible that he jumps up (and forward also), then lands and not only doesn’t loose speed, he even increase it after the landing.
A mystery? No. Watch that toe push he is doing after landing.
ONCE AGAIN – DOING HOOPS OR LITTLE JUMPS ALLOWS YOU TO AVOID EDGE‘S WORK.
And toe push helps you to increase a speed forward, yes.
Some jumps are done without toe push after landing, so this only avoid edge’s work. Most of jumps/hoops especially during Step Sequences are done with toe push, so skaters avoid edge’s work and increase a speed in the same moment.
How about definition of Skating Skills – mastery of edges, gliding, knee action, multi-directional skating…
If little jumps/hoops are so difficult and if it shows the real great quality of dancers why are not Skating Skills like – mastery of hoops and little jumps, mastery of take off in hoops and jumps, multi-directional hoops…maybe it has some reasons why Skating Skills are connected with edges and gliding and not jumps/hoops.
Look at how it should be done if you want to be great technician:
Delobel & Schoenfelder 2008 FD:
…Circular Step Sequence – they had only one jump from both during whole sequence, they were able to keep higher speed at the beginning and quite normal speed in the second half of step sequence…only with help of gliding and edge’s work… https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=3siEAJZ-IKM#t=131
Denkova & Staviski 2007 FD:
… Circular Step Sequence – they start steps with almost no speed and they are able to move through whole sequence without doing any jump or hoop, they are able to get some speed from gliding and edge’s work… https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=00EwMcunCNE#t=87
Domnina & Shabalin 2007 FD:
…Diagonal Step Sequence – only one cross-over before the steps, but they are able to keep very good speed in the first half of steps and good speed in the second half…no jumps/hoops…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3ERu3i0GR4&feature=player_detailpage#t=59
While Chock & Bates 2014 FD:
…Circular Step Sequence – after first step – Mohawk – Evan makes a hoop – after Madison’s Double Twizzles there is a sequence of toe steps (which is going well with music, so this not something bad) – another difficult turn – and Madison makes hoop – then part of edge’s work, but after Mohawk Evan changes direction going through toe pick – only one arc later Madison jumps into opossite direction - https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=V_kp7mji8_4#t=125
….Diagonal Step Sequence – opening arc and Madison once again jumps to get into another direction – one second later Evan jumps to get into another direction – after Chocktaw done together they both jump to get into Forward direction – then many toe steps (but it may go with music once again) – then Madison repeatedly jumps forward to get closer to Evan – some edge’s work from both of them and Madison once again jumps – once then she jumps once again… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_kp7mji8_4&feature=player_detailpage#t=216
I am not suprised that skaters who are not technically great are preffering more easy way… if they believe that they are simply not able to show great edge and not finish standing in the middle of the ice rink without any moving forward in the same moment…then hoops and jumps are the only way how to “survive“ program and especially Step Sequences without any tragedy. But I persist on saying that they should be marked looking at that – so no way marks which are described like very good or great Skating Skills.
All skaters even those who are single skaters and those who don’t qualify for Junior Worlds Championships are able to perform little jumps and hoops well during program, but only top of those skaters are able to master edges – do you think that this fact is caused by reality of hoops being more difficult then edge’s work? Come on.
An example:
Vadskjaer Grapek & Jones – 2014 Junior Worlds SD – 28th place – 28.41 points for SD – 3.71 points for Skating Skills… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_gt7qy8clM …
…immediatelly at the beginning during an introduction both Sarah & Malcolm make a jump with knee of the free leg moving a little bit forward and after landing they both make a toe push of free leg… and what happens?... they immediately got some speed and moved forward…what a suprise to see good little jump from skaters who don’t know to skate properly getting 3.71 points (so they have absolutely no quality of edge’s work looking at that mark)…
…since 0.43 second a lady makes a couple of jumps forward and increase a speed thanks to it…but why?...jumps improve her speed? How? Is she good in technique to increase speed? Of course no. While watching the couple edge’s work – this is really a tragedy, so Skating Skills under 4 points are on the right place. So how is it possible that she increased the speed when she had no gliding or edges skills. Any suggestion? Maybe because jumps increase speed no matter how poor technician you are!
…overall couple executes more jumps and hoops during their program…and every simple jump/hoop is performed well and increase their speed…but they have no Skating Skills…
…especially in Circular Step Sequence since 2:33 there is a visible difference between moments when the couple has almost no edges and looses speed in turns, while the little jumps are well performed and help to increase speed a lot…
Right now Ice Dance Cathegory has so many couples who are making their work more easy having so many little jumps and hoops – and rules are not too strict about such non skating elements, that the number of great technicians decreased in last decade. (Of course putting down Compulsory dances also helped this situation.)
I cannot believe you pulled out the 28th place junior team of Vadskjaer Grapek & Jones SD, but am glad you did
This type of "skating" reminds me somewhat of Coomes/Buckland (among others) from last year, and as appalling as it may be that some judges reward this type of skating, they in fact do, and not just to the lower ranked teams. Although Denmark is not a powerful skating nation and that is why they got properly rewarded 3.71 in skating skills, or else it would probably have been in the 5s 
I foreshadowed this type of non-skating "skating" since the beginning of last season's developments/scandal (and before that, actually), and seeing that has made me realize that teams will emulate this "style" so long as they can win. It will be standard procedure, if not this quadrennial, then by 2022. One can still be average-below average skaters and still have a hope of beating out better skaters and ice dancers. This is the message the ISU Ice Dance people want to send out to skaters. This is the norm.I like that Paradis/Ouellette's FD is different compared to Papadakis/Cizeron's despite sharing the same coach and choreographer and despite both programs being in the lyrical vein. I don't think Zoueva would ever be able to create two different programs for different teams of a similar style. There are similar (small) David Wilsonesque quirks in both programs but D/L looks to have tried to at least choreograph a program to the appropriate music.
Vadskjaer Grapek & Jones though
There is some ice dancers who use them in step sequences when they are almost in stall. Only with a little toe pick or with a little jump they are able to finish the sequence. But some dancers doesn't lose speed or can gain again with edge work. They don't need much hops,jumps or toe picks.
Look at how Capellini/Lanotte uses jumps/hops in steps, Especially second half of the element
http://youtu.be/kLagqYIWxMY?t=1m18s
You can see in Sinitsina/Zhiganshin. They are very fast in first half, not so much in second half.
http://youtu.be/eMOJGgjjOdw?t=1m19s
Point is figure skating jumps are not just upward jumps.
Look at how Capellini/Lanotte uses jumps/hops in steps, Especially second half of the element
http://youtu.be/kLagqYIWxMY?t=1m18s
You can see in Sinitsina/Zhiganshin. They are very fast in first half, not so much in second half.
http://youtu.be/eMOJGgjjOdw?t=1m19s
Point is figure skating jumps are not just upward jumps.
It seems like if this were sound tachnique then speed skaters would catch on to it.
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2003
First of all let me confess that I know very little about ice dance and nothing about reading the protocols! However, for the last 3 years or so I've watched quite a lot of ice dance and really enjoy it!
Watching SA I really enjoyed Anastasia Cannusio/Colin McManus and expected them to finish a little higher. Tanith was commentating on IN and she had many positive things to say about them. She also mentioned a few mistakes...bobbles, etc.
Can someone explain what Anastasia/Colin need to improve to score higher. Remember, I don't know a lot about ice dance so please keep it simple.
Thanks!
However, for the last 3 years or so I've watched quite a lot of ice dance and really enjoy it!Watching SA I really enjoyed Anastasia Cannusio/Colin McManus and expected them to finish a little higher. Tanith was commentating on IN and she had many positive things to say about them. She also mentioned a few mistakes...bobbles, etc.
Can someone explain what Anastasia/Colin need to improve to score higher. Remember, I don't know a lot about ice dance so please keep it simple.
Thanks!
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2004
I studied biomechanics in college and worked for a time in a biomechanics lab. I might be able to add something to this discussion. While working in the lab, I digitized hundreds of films of elite level athletes. I reviewed the computer analysis of the digitized data and organized and typed up the recommendations the biomechanics professor sent to the athlete and his or her coaches. Most of the work I did involved world class track and field athletes. The track athletes were all trying to increase their horizontal velocity, because that's how one wins races. When you talk about speed across the ice, you're talking about horizontal velocity. It was a given that sprinters, distance runners and hurdlers all had to work on minimizing the time spent airborne during their stride. More time in the air correlated to slower race times.
The body can only produce force by pushing against the earth or something in contact with the earth. The athlete's ability to affect body movement during free fall is very limited. You can move you limbs, transferring momentum between parts of the body, which can alter rotation. You can also manipulate the body somewhat, altering the center of gravity. But when the body is in the air, there is no way to generate horizontal speed. Barring some external event, such as running into a wall or being hit by a zamboni, the only force at work while your body is in the air is gravity. Gravity operates only in the vertical plane and accelerates the body vertically toward the earth at a constant rate.
A sprinter can only generate horizontal speed while pushing with his foot against the ground. Likewise, a skater can only generate speed across the ice by pushing against it. For both the time spent in the air is essentially dead time, with no way to generate horizontal velocity. However, for the sprinter there is a cost/benefit situation that makes going into the air worth it. After all, we run faster than we walk. The trade off comes from many things. The negative acceleration of gravity can contribute to elastic recoil of the muscle, so it's a bit like loading a spring. But mostly, for a variety of very complicated reasons, the running stride allows the the body to be positioned in a way that maximizes the ability to push against the ground and generate force, which means maximizing acceleration and velocity. Still, other things being equal, a bouncy runner always will be at a disadvantage compared to a runner doesn't go into the air as much. It's a matter of lost opportunity. While the bouncy runner is spending precious milliseconds waiting for gravity to return her to the earth, the other runner has already landed on the ground and started to push off and increase her speed.
Note that this trade-off concerns the running stride, and I don't recall anyone on this forum complaining about ice dancers increasing their speed by running too much. The issue was hopping. And hopping has all the negatives of compromising horizontal speed by creating dead time in the air, without the compensating positives. Remember watching the 100 meter dash at the Olympics? How many competitors did you see hopping toward the finish line? None? That's because hopping makes it harder to produce horizontal speed, not easier.
Because of the reduced friction, I suspect skaters do not get the same trade-off with running as a person would off-ice. I believe stroking is by far the most efficient way to accelerate across the ice. I certainly think hopping would make generating and maintaining speed across the ice more difficult, not less. If you want to try an intuitive approach, imagine you are on an ice rink, in skates, and an axe wielding homicidal maniac starts chasing you. I know I would be stroking as hard as I could away from the axe murderer. Don't think I'd try to run on ice, and I sure as heck wouldn't be trying to hop away.
Pushing off the toe pick certainly would be a way to increase speed. Whether it's a shameful and inferior way to gain speed, I'll leave to the purists in the sport. I myself have never seen any high level ice dancer chugging around the ice like Surya Bonaly, repeatedly pushing off their toe like they're riding a child's scooter. YMMV.
Hope I haven't been too pedantic. I promise to never write a post this long again.
The body can only produce force by pushing against the earth or something in contact with the earth. The athlete's ability to affect body movement during free fall is very limited. You can move you limbs, transferring momentum between parts of the body, which can alter rotation. You can also manipulate the body somewhat, altering the center of gravity. But when the body is in the air, there is no way to generate horizontal speed. Barring some external event, such as running into a wall or being hit by a zamboni, the only force at work while your body is in the air is gravity. Gravity operates only in the vertical plane and accelerates the body vertically toward the earth at a constant rate.
A sprinter can only generate horizontal speed while pushing with his foot against the ground. Likewise, a skater can only generate speed across the ice by pushing against it. For both the time spent in the air is essentially dead time, with no way to generate horizontal velocity. However, for the sprinter there is a cost/benefit situation that makes going into the air worth it. After all, we run faster than we walk. The trade off comes from many things. The negative acceleration of gravity can contribute to elastic recoil of the muscle, so it's a bit like loading a spring. But mostly, for a variety of very complicated reasons, the running stride allows the the body to be positioned in a way that maximizes the ability to push against the ground and generate force, which means maximizing acceleration and velocity. Still, other things being equal, a bouncy runner always will be at a disadvantage compared to a runner doesn't go into the air as much. It's a matter of lost opportunity. While the bouncy runner is spending precious milliseconds waiting for gravity to return her to the earth, the other runner has already landed on the ground and started to push off and increase her speed.
Note that this trade-off concerns the running stride, and I don't recall anyone on this forum complaining about ice dancers increasing their speed by running too much. The issue was hopping. And hopping has all the negatives of compromising horizontal speed by creating dead time in the air, without the compensating positives. Remember watching the 100 meter dash at the Olympics? How many competitors did you see hopping toward the finish line? None? That's because hopping makes it harder to produce horizontal speed, not easier.
Because of the reduced friction, I suspect skaters do not get the same trade-off with running as a person would off-ice. I believe stroking is by far the most efficient way to accelerate across the ice. I certainly think hopping would make generating and maintaining speed across the ice more difficult, not less. If you want to try an intuitive approach, imagine you are on an ice rink, in skates, and an axe wielding homicidal maniac starts chasing you. I know I would be stroking as hard as I could away from the axe murderer. Don't think I'd try to run on ice, and I sure as heck wouldn't be trying to hop away.
Pushing off the toe pick certainly would be a way to increase speed. Whether it's a shameful and inferior way to gain speed, I'll leave to the purists in the sport. I myself have never seen any high level ice dancer chugging around the ice like Surya Bonaly, repeatedly pushing off their toe like they're riding a child's scooter. YMMV.
Hope I haven't been too pedantic. I promise to never write a post this long again.
Maybe too simple but just can't see why the Shibs levels were 2s over Chock and Bates 3s and 4s. All the mechanics and explanations above aren't helping. Can someone help me - what is the difference in the role of the technical controller over the technical specialist? Do they do "their thing" independently or confer on ratings? Is it possible this is some element of the judging world saying " you're done for awhile, Marina, give someone else a turn"? Or are they (judges) just masking the real new top Russian teams and don't want the Shibs to be in that mix but figure compared to C/B, the Russians will shine? Marina is pushing back...let's see if anyone is listening.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I am reminded of those African antelopes who, when a lion is after them, stop and jump up and down a few times. This tells the lion, "You are barking up the wrong tree trying to catch me. I can waste all this energy jumping up and down and still I can take off and outrun you!" Supposedly, it works. The lion abandons the chase and goes after less rambunctious prey.
I promise to never write a post this long again.
Post often, post long!
I'm really fan of Stepanova/Bukin's split rotational lift.. Unexpected entry, no crossovers for preparation at all, good split position from Stepanova, very fast and easy rotation from Bukin, eye contact.. Lift looks effortless and goes with the music too... Simply beautiful, +3 from me..
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2014
The fact was 6 out of 9 judges rated C/B higher and these judges came from different countries. Conspiracy? Hmmm... Also, in Nebelhorn, C/B won the FD portion. Comparatively, even though the Shibs were winners in another competition (Ondrej Nepela Memorial), their scores were lower than the silver medalists' - C/B in Nebelhorn. So was there a conspiracy there too not having received higher scores?
The "conspiracy" which was mentioned in the SD thread (and slammed back by various posters including a moderator) derives from the known close personal, professional and financial ties of the technical specialist and assistant technical specialist with Shpilband. The reference points are obvious and well known enough regarding both that more than one complaint was filed by federations actually before the competition, but the ISU, who had already committed to both men on their roles for this event. Their respective close US geographic base (and thus lower travel costs for the ISU and host) likely influenced their original selection, but honestly more ethical people would have recused themselves. Galit Chait for instance is a qualified technical specialist, but she always recused herself from "calling" Grand Prix and other major events while she was coaching senior international competitive skaters.
It is not a question of whether the people are deliberately doing something wrong. They are going to be influenced by various factors that are difficult to predict or prove. It just looks so obviously inappropriate. And for the athletes, all of whom know this is happening, it has to be very disheartening.
So given this extended conversation on toe picks, hops, jumps etc and nothing really regarding the SD and FD of our current world champions, not many are impressed with C/L this season?Forgive me if this conversations needs to be in another thread
I believe it is because C/L did not participate at Skate America. Hence, no one is talking about them in this thread.
I like some things of C/L's new FD this year and not like other things in the program, but overall I like it more than the crud program of last year. This new FD is not as bad as I expected from Zoueva. Well, maybe over time it will be. But it is better than last year's. Anything is an improvement from last year's.
Shibutanis need to work on their skating skills. They do not have powerful deep edges and absolutely no amplitude in their skating. No one should ever compare them to V/M. Also, they skate so far apart, and it has not improved, even after Maia has grown. Also, their lack of interpretation skills is troubling. Deficiency in skating skills and interpretation skills is a recipe for disaster. Since they aren't outstanding technicians or dancers, they should just take the C/B route. They should go to Shpilband. Zoueva can package and hide her skaters flaws very well too, but she has her hands full right now with so many other teams.
