2016-17 State of Russian Ice Dance

[coldblueeyes]

The best I can do for half of these comments is

They made mistakes? It's not like it's the end of the world. This is the least important competition of the entire season (besides the money), they have nothing to make up for, especially compared to other teams. B/S were literally the first team to show their programs last year, and they've been competing ever since. Never made up excuses for mistakes, and I don't see why they should do them now.

 

[madforskating]

Sinitsina and Katsalapov have been seen at the rink of Zhulin according to a very reliable source.
How strange Zhulin would take Nikita back after some of the things he said about I/K when they left.
Desperate times for both Zhulin and Nikita it seems to be.

Have we discussed the rumor that Nikita hit Victoria and got himself kicked out of the Zueva group? There were rumors floating around on FSUniverse saying he was beating her.
As to Zhulin taking back Nikita, leave it to them Russians, so desperate for ice dance medals that they'll do anything.

 

[madforskating]

In WTT b/S lost in TES to a Chinese team and Japanese team! Embarrassing. And bobrova is captain. Unacceptably bad showing and she being captain should leave.

Wow harsh.
Bobrova and Soloviev had one bad skate. Just a twizzle error. And really if you're gonna blame someone, blame Soloviev not Bobrova. He was the one who messed up.
Besides, according to Kristi Yamaguchi a team captain at WTT is supposed to be a glorified cheerleader, not the coach.

 

[gmyers]

The best I can do for half of these comments is

They made mistakes? It's not like it's the end of the world. This is the least important competition of the entire season (besides the money), they have nothing to make up for, especially compared to other teams. B/S were literally the first team to show their programs last year, and they've been competing ever since. Never made up excuses for mistakes, and I don't see why they should do them now.

But they don't have good Results for a Russian dance national champion team. They did not medal at gpf, lost their first place and euros and went down to third and at worlds was 8th in the short dance so they are just very poor this season and now embarrassed themselves by being below Chinese and Japanese teams in TES. When are they going to start taking their position seriously and seek to respect the history of Russian ice dance?

Have we discussed the rumor that Nikita hit Victoria and got himself kicked out of the Zueva group? There were rumors floating around on FSUniverse saying he was beating her.
As to Zhulin taking back Nikita, leave it to them Russians, so desperate for ice dance medals that they'll do anything.

It's been discussed a lot but the witnesses have been completely horrible people who won't go public and are protecting katsalapov rather than seek isu banning of him!

 

[gmyers]

Wow harsh.
Bobrova and Soloviev had one bad skate. Just a twizzle error. And really if you're gonna blame someone, blame Soloviev not Bobrova. He was the one who messed up.
Besides, according to Kristi Yamaguchi a team captain at WTT is supposed to be a glorified cheerleader, not the coach.

This is their fifth bad skate.

 

[madforskating]

But they don't have good Results for a Russian dance national champion team. They did not medal at gpf, lost their first place and euros and went down to third and at worlds was 8th in the short dance so they are just very poor this season and now embarrassed themselves by being below Chinese and Japanese teams in TES. When are they going to start taking their position seriously and seek to respect the history of Russian ice dance?



It's been discussed a lot but the witnesses have been completely horrible people who won't go public and are protecting katsalapov rather than seek isu banning of him!

Bobrova and Soloviev aren't at the same level as, say, Virtue/Moir, so you can't expect them to be up there with Virtue/Moir. Same as how I don't hold it against Jason Brown that he didn't medal at Worlds - for his own skill set, 7th was a good finish.
As for Nikita...I think the skating fed is putting results before Victoria's safety. Not right but that's how it's done. They're so set on keeping their ice dance program that they don't care if poor Victoria gets crushed to pieces in the process.

 

[coldblueeyes]

But they don't have good Results for a Russian dance national champion team. They did not medal at gpf, lost their first place and euros and went down to third and at worlds was 8th in the short dance so they are just very poor this season and now embarrassed themselves by being below Chinese and Japanese teams in TES. When are they going to start taking their position seriously and seek to respect the history of Russian ice dance?

They have the best results of any Russian National Champion, or any Russian National team since 2014 - arguably even before that. Period. You can't say the entire school of Russian ID is faulty and then expect them to win everything, it's like you can't even keep track of your own arguments. That's embarassing, because you only attack, attack and attack without thinking for a moment if they are able to win over the other teams.

If anything, they competed and medaled where it counted, and where they could. It's not like they had any chance of going over P/C at Euros, for example, neither the judges seemed to be much keen on putting them over C/L. Also, at Worlds they had a less than ideal SD, a good FD, and people were all over the place thinking the world was ending because they got a small medal in the FD. When was the last time a Russian team even got as little as that?

You want to paint them as the embarassment of Russia right now, but they are literally the only team to medal at something other than the GPs this entire cycle - not forgetting S/B at Euros 2015. Also, accept that they are not a top-tier team, which we've been over more than a hundred times this year, and lower your expectations.

Even with all this fuss, Russia has nothing better to offer. Case closed.

 

[gmyers]

Bobrova and Soloviev aren't at the same level as, say, Virtue/Moir, so you can't expect them to be up there with Virtue/Moir. Same as how I don't hold it against Jason Brown that he didn't medal at Worlds - for his own skill set, 7th was a good finish.
As for Nikita...I think the skating fed is putting results before Victoria's safety. Not right but that's how it's done. They're so set on keeping their ice dance program that they don't care if poor Victoria gets crushed to pieces in the process.

Can b/S just be better in TES than the Japanese and Chinese teams? I don't ever expect them to beat v/m but can they beat c/l at euros? How about three American teams in a sd? I never imagined comparing b/s to Jason Brown who can't do quads. Dance is much more even and better coaching and programs could move b/S mich further than trying to teach Brown a quad. But unlike Brown b/S don't have any special qualities so they need the best coaching and programs to get them up to higher level.

S/k don't even have any good results so keeping her with an abuser is bizarre. I am sure the two are related! Bad results from bad training as she can't even function properly with so much fear of beatings.

They have the best results of any Russian National Champion, or any Russian National team since 2014 - arguably even before that. Period. You can't say the entire school of Russian ID is faulty and then expect them to win everything, it's like you can't even keep track of your own arguments. That's embarassing, because you only attack, attack and attack without thinking for a moment if they are able to win over the other teams.

If anything, they competed and medaled where it counted, and where they could. It's not like they had any chance of going over P/C at Euros, for example, neither the judges seemed to be much keen on putting them over C/L. Also, at Worlds they had a less than ideal SD, a good FD, and people were all over the place thinking the world was ending because they got a small medal in the FD. When was the last time a Russian team even got as little as that?

You want to paint them as the embarassment of Russia right now, but they are literally the only team to medal at something other than the GPs this entire cycle - not forgetting S/B at Euros 2015. Also, accept that they are not a top-tier team, which we've been over more than a hundred times this year, and lower your expectations.

Even with all this fuss, Russia has nothing better to offer. Case closed.

I don't expect them to win anything because they won't make the changes they need! Why won't they switch to zueva, spiliband, krylova or d/l? Losing TES to Japanese and Chinese teams should tell them they need to Change coaching and use the embarrassment to work harder and start doing better.

I don't believe I should lower my expectations because I don't have any expectations (other than basic competence- maybe that is wrong) as they don't have good coaching or good programs. If they were training in US or Canada and got the same results I might change my whole opinion and outlook! People still act they get special treatment and their mediocre results because they are Russian number 1 dance team but what could happen if they actually had a good coach or programs? Followed IJS scoring trends more closely?

When people acted like their small medal and fifth place was the result of favoritism toward Russia it was bizarre! Why would Russia work for a fifth place finish and not to medal at a pre Olympic worlds when ice dance was an Olympic sport for the first time ever? Why work for a 8th and 10th placements in the short dance?

 

[coldblueeyes]

Can b/S just be better in TES than the Japanese and Chinese teams? I don't ever expect them to beat v/m but can they beat c/l at euros? How about three American teams in a sd? I never imagined comparing b/s to Jason Brown who can't do quads. Dance is much more even and better coaching and programs could move b/S mich further than trying to teach Brown a quad. But unlike Brown b/S don't have any special qualities so they need the best coaching and programs to get them up to higher level.

S/k don't even have any good results so keeping her with an abuser is bizarre. I am sure the two are related! Bad results from bad training as she can't even function properly with so much fear of beatings.



I don't expect them to win anything because they won't make the changes they need! Why won't they switch to zueva, spiliband, krylova or d/l? Losing TES to Japanese and Chinese teams should tell them they need to Change coaching and use the embarrassment to work harder and start doing better.

I don't believe I should lower my expectations because I don't have any expectations (other than basic competence- maybe that is wrong) as they don't have good coaching or good programs. If they were training in US or Canada and got the same results I might change my whole opinion and outlook! People still act they get special treatment and their mediocre results because they are Russian number 1 dance team but what could happen if they actually had a good coach or programs? Followed IJS scoring trends more closely?

When people acted like their small medal and fifth place was the result of favoritism toward Russia it was bizarre! Why would Russia work for a fifth place finish and not to medal at a pre Olympic worlds when ice dance was an Olympic sport for the first time ever? Why work for a 8th and 10th placements in the short dance?

Well, well. We have two russian teams who run off to the US for help, and what did we got out of it? NOTHING. A big pile of nothing. I'm not saying something wouln't come of it, since we can't know what ifs, but you also have to realize that there is nothing for B/S outside of Russia. They have one season left, and why would they spend money on them if the best they can get is a bronze medal - which is at their reach without leaving Russia? That path is for the younger teams to make, coupled with a reformulation of the system, but that's something we can't do anything about.

About the mistake, well, this was the first major mistake they did all season. In fact, the first time they messed up this way, all the other mistakes during the season were problems with the levels, and they weren't constant. I see no reason to cry to the four corners of the world about this mishap, they were not the only ones who did this but it seems like it's an unlucky accident with other teams, and suddenly with the Russians it's the end of the world - get over it.

And as I said before, they were showing their programs already in August of last year, that's two months before some other teams, they are probably tired. But I can't fault them for coming here, the money is good. All in all, I'm happy they are having fun. In the end this is probably the last time they compete here, let them have it.

 

[madforskating]

S/k don't even have any good results so keeping her with an abuser is bizarre. I am sure the two are related! Bad results from bad training as she can't even function properly with so much fear of beatings.

Oddly enough, Sinitsina is the one who rarely errors. Nikita gives up on the twizzles too easy. Either way, I want to get that girl out of there as fast as possible.

 

[Jennifer Lyon]

Well, yeah. But he did seem to be able to control Nikita, to a point. Also, Zhulin got Kostomarov to stop beating Navka, so if S/K are having one of their lovers spats, he might be more willing to nip it in the bud

Reading this and recalling some of the things I've heard about the way Zhulin treated Maya Usova when they were married and skating together... :noshake:

 

[bramweld]

Reading this and recalling some of the things I've heard about the way Zhulin treated Maya Usova when they were married and skating together... :noshake:

Exactly, I don't understand the outrage being spewed here as if this is anything new in certain circles. The Russian federation would sell their collective souls to medal. At 2012 Russian Nationals Lena Ilinykh stumbled on small bit of choreography Nikita Katsalapov's posture betrayed an intent to actually hit her. Lena had hinted several times at his lack of respect for her and his uncontrollable rage. Tatyana Flade let it slip during Russian Nationals and I quote "Nikita Katsalapov, CAN BE a charming fellow when he chooses to be", to which Ari Z. replied "Well of course he has to she's a very beautiful girl". But these things are irrelevant, the fed doesn't care as long as he performs adequately on ice and brings in the medals. All apart of life in Russian ID.

 

[Jennifer Lyon]

Exactly, I don't understand the outrage being spewed here as if this is anything new in certain circles. The Russian federation would sell their collective souls to medal. At 2012 Russian Nationals Lena Ilinykh stumbled on small bit of choreography Nikita Katsalapov's posture betrayed an intent to actually hit her. Lena had hinted several times at his lack of respect for her and his uncontrollable rage. Tatyana Flade let it slip during Russian Nationals and I quote "Nikita Katsalapov, CAN BE a charming fellow when he chooses to be", to which Ari Z. replied "Well of course he has to she's a very beautiful girl". But these things are irrelevant, the fed doesn't care as long as he performs adequately on ice and brings in the medals. All apart of life in Russian ID.

It has happened in pairs, too. The most notorious case was probably Elena Berezhnaya and Oleg Shliakhov.

 

[bramweld]

It has happened in pairs, too. The most notorious case was probably Elena Berezhnaya and Oleg Shliakhov.

Russian ID will change when and if the ethos of their federation changes. The polarizing behaviour of their experts has lead to their inability to treat each other as dignified human beings. They can't even compete together as a team. All the other teams are making a valiant effort at competing B/S are just dialing it in. Its embarrassing to watch. Its like they came to collect a wad of cash, have fun and then compete if able. For the other teams you sense the exact opposite. On paper, with the exception of Kovtun I thought collectively they'd be steamrolling everybody. It looks like primarily Evgenia came to compete.

 

[gmyers]

Well, well. We have two russian teams who run off to the US for help, and what did we got out of it? NOTHING. A big pile of nothing. I'm not saying something wouln't come of it, since we can't know what ifs, but you also have to realize that there is nothing for B/S outside of Russia. They have one season left, and why would they spend money on them if the best they can get is a bronze medal - which is at their reach without leaving Russia? That path is for the younger teams to make, coupled with a reformulation of the system, but that's something we can't do anything about.

About the mistake, well, this was the first major mistake they did all season. In fact, the first time they messed up this way, all the other mistakes during the season were problems with the levels, and they weren't constant. I see no reason to cry to the four corners of the world about this mishap, they were not the only ones who did this but it seems like it's an unlucky accident with other teams, and suddenly with the Russians it's the end of the world - get over it.

And as I said before, they were showing their programs already in August of last year, that's two months before some other teams, they are probably tired. But I can't fault them for coming here, the money is good. All in all, I'm happy they are having fun. In the end this is probably the last time they compete here, let them have it.

The switch to spiliband by I/z was never totally official. It was not full time. Eventually almost everything he did was thrown out. The problems of anyone coaching Katsalapov are well documented. He's just hopeless!

Russia doesn't have anything else better than b/s so I just wonder why they can't be given the best? Not what's considered the best in Russia But the actual best! Why not work harder to solidify bronze and make them go to North America? Unless the policy is one of not really caring about having a medal in ice dance at the 2018 Olympics. Or maybe S/b will be sent to North America for next season. Have them be coached by dubreil in preparation for 2022. Or maybe no one cares about ice dance in Russia anymore.

Oddly enough, Sinitsina is the one who rarely errors. Nikita gives up on the twizzles too easy. Either way, I want to get that girl out of there as fast as possible.

You can say she is so stiff and slow in an effort to avoid making mistakes she hurts goe and levels.

 

[coldblueeyes]

The switch to spiliband by I/z was never totally official. It was not full time. Eventually almost everything he did was thrown out. The problems of anyone coaching Katsalapov are well documented. He's just hopeless!

Russia doesn't have anything else better than b/s so I just wonder why they can't be given the best? Not what's considered the best in Russia But the actual best! Why not work harder to solidify bronze and make them go to North America? Unless the policy is one of not really caring about having a medal in ice dance at the 2018 Olympics. Or maybe S/b will be sent to North America for next season. Have them be coached by dubreil in preparation for 2022. Or maybe no one cares about ice dance in Russia anymore.

Well, as I said before, I don't know if they, B/S, want to get out of Russia just for a season. The entirety of this quad was a mess for them already, so I hardly doubt they'd want to be uprooted to another country just for a year.

Also, the management of ID in Russian is questionable, do they even know that there's something better outside Russia? Do they care? The only thing that seem to be on the minds of TPTB is topping the field in Russia and then whining about not being recognized outside.

 

[Abraxis12345]

Wrong thread

 

[gmyers]

Well, as I said before, I don't know if they, B/S, want to get out of Russia just for a season. The entirety of this quad was a mess for them already, so I hardly doubt they'd want to be uprooted to another country just for a year.

Also, the management of ID in Russian is questionable, do they even know that there's something better outside Russia? Do they care? The only thing that seem to be on the minds of TPTB is topping the field in Russia and then whining about not being recognized outside.

Everyone can check the isu profiles of the dance teams and see 95% train somewhere in North America! I feel sorry for Russian teams being held prisoner in that system! Then if people complain or train in North America maybe they won't do well at Russian nationals and never go to worlds?! So horrible! They are heading toward not medaling at Olympics in ice dance for first time ever and no one is doing anything!

Listening to belbin and white I did get the feeling that maybe no one would want to coach bobrova because they wouldn't want to deal with her posture. That it might make them look bad or be too much work. But they'd be getting money so why not deal with her posture?

 

[chuckm]

Bobrova is 27. Changing her posture now is impossible. That should have been done when she was 15-16.

 

[Ares]

Can b/S just be better in TES than the Japanese and Chinese teams? I don't ever expect them to beat v/m but can they beat c/l at euros? How about three American teams in a sd? I never imagined comparing b/s to Jason Brown who can't do quads. Dance is much more even and better coaching and programs could move b/S mich further than trying to teach Brown a quad. But unlike Brown b/S don't have any special qualities so they need the best coaching and programs to get them up to higher level.

S/k don't even have any good results so keeping her with an abuser is bizarre. I am sure the two are related! Bad results from bad training as she can't even function properly with so much fear of beatings.



I don't expect them to win anything because they won't make the changes they need! Why won't they switch to zueva, spiliband, krylova or d/l? Losing TES to Japanese and Chinese teams should tell them they need to Change coaching and use the embarrassment to work harder and start doing better.

I don't believe I should lower my expectations because I don't have any expectations (other than basic competence- maybe that is wrong) as they don't have good coaching or good programs. If they were training in US or Canada and got the same results I might change my whole opinion and outlook! People still act they get special treatment and their mediocre results because they are Russian number 1 dance team but what could happen if they actually had a good coach or programs? Followed IJS scoring trends more closely?

When people acted like their small medal and fifth place was the result of favoritism toward Russia it was bizarre! Why would Russia work for a fifth place finish and not to medal at a pre Olympic worlds when ice dance was an Olympic sport for the first time ever? Why work for a 8th and 10th placements in the short dance?

Why do you make such a big drama over B/S start in fluffy WTT?

They're not moving anywhere, case closed imo.