2016-2017 State of Canadian Figure Skating | Page 8 | Golden Skate

2016-2017 State of Canadian Figure Skating

I'm esastic for Nam after this weekend! While it's still too early to say for sure, I think he's on the right track to get back to where he was in the 2014-15 season. It looks like he's adjusted to last year's growth spurt and has his jumps back. David Glynn seems like the right fit as Nam's coach.

I'm getting excited already for the men's category at Canadian nationals! Patrick, Kevin, Nam, Liam, Nicholas, Elladj, and even Keegan Messing and Bennet Toman. Should be a wild one.
 
i was shocked to find out one spin was invalid as well...

i think he is slow.. but he performed really well and was reaching out to the audience with his big beautiful smile. I think he will have to earn his PCS by keeping skating as clean as he did today... even his GOE. Is that fair ? not really... I would have given him a couple more points.



the one skater who has been lowballed this weekend is Gabby. I see her on the podium with her skates.... she is just a few points away from bronze and I feel she deserved to be higher. Honestly, Mihara from Japan (not to be confused with Miyahara) skated a juniorish program, had lower TES than Gabby, and outscored her in PCS....

Also, Gabby : if you are going to do 3t-3t in the long, do it in the short... the only reason to do it in the short would be if you are doing it in the long...

If you haven't seen Gabby's LP : go ahead and watch it... there are hard transitions for many jumps. She is just slowly showing the world how great of an athlete she is. I was incredibly impressed by Alaine at ACI, then by Kaetlyn at Finlandia.... what Gabby did this weekend is just as impressive. WOW... The next person who comes in this thread saying our ladies are weak gets a tomato!

I totally agree with everything you say about Gabby. Despite some mistakes, I still think she was lowballed and should have won the bronze. Ah well, onto the next for Gabby. :)
 
I'm esastic for Nam after this weekend! While it's still too early to say for sure, I think he's on the right track to get back to where he was in the 2014-15 season. It looks like he's adjusted to last year's growth spurt and has his jumps back. David Glynn seems like the right fit as Nam's coach.

I'm getting excited already for the men's category at Canadian nationals! Patrick, Kevin, Nam, Liam, Nicholas, Elladj, and even Keegan Messing and Bennet Toman. Should be a wild one.


I thought Nam's skate was very encouraging. Also, he has a 3S early in the program which makes me think it's a placeholder to add a second 4S. I have to say that I LOVE when skaters/coaches go gradually, landing a program clean first, before packing it with quads. Nam used to do the 4T as well, so he is probably relearning them slowly, getting his mojo back. Then, speed should be addressed too but that will come with bigger manly thighs ;) hehe ...

Regarding nationals... well we have been talking A LOT about our girls and rightfully so. 2 spots and 3 extremely strong competitors, and even at that! Honestly, when I look at other countries, I do not envy their roster of ladies anymore. We are fine ;) may not win medals at worlds but our girls all have a wow factor, speed, big jumps, good spins and very good programs/packaging.

Men : well well.. We all take for granted Patrick will win this. I certainly agree he is the clear favourite :) but honestly, when I look at the field.... Nam skated clean but somehow doesn't have yet all of what it takes to become a threat on the world scene. Perhaps in a few months, he will have acquired more PCS potential. I just thought that two clean skates only gave him 6th place at this GP so I am not too ecstatic about potential of placing top ten in the world yet.

Kevin is on such a journey... He has 6 quads planned across SP and LP.... if he landed all these, he might surprise many. His PCS tend to be higher than Nam's, his programs are obviously more mature.

Keegan was so exciting and so well trained at ACI. His jumps are very solid and he is fast. He may challenge as well. Nicolas is injured I think but damn, he already has 4T, gorgeous 3A... and well, he landed 4Lz in practice.... + he is a very endearing performer. Elladj and Liam have great PCS potential, gorgeous performers but sometimes they struggle with their jumps. I wish them a great Nationals as they are truly above the other challengers when it comes to skating skills. Bennet Toman is a cutie, has great skating skills and a gorgeous triple axel... he is a probably the one I'd like to believe could make waves in the future. Sort of like a mini Patrick being built here... well, not quite as good with edges but a refined skater with beautiful jumps. However, we have to see if he will get his quad stable.

SOOOO : do you realize that some of these great guys will not even be on the national team, let alone the podium???? On a perfect day, any of these can be in the top 15 at worlds. It is very exciting.

Commenting on pairs simply because we did have a great showing with Julianne and Charlie here... what I liked the most about them this weekend is their determination to make things happen for them. After the short, it was clear that the judges wouldn't give them a freebie... their PCS were rather low.... and there was a clear line up here for a Russia, USA, France podium even... but they did what they needed to do : skated clean. Judges were conservative again but it put pressure on other teams and it worked out. So, they had in the past showed us our consistent they were... but when you are always consistent it's perhaps difficult to recuperate from a mistake.. they showed us now that not only they can but they are true fighters. The good news is that we can send three teams to worlds... so I am less concerned about Nationals in pairs... with KMT being injured, and them being already team #4... i think the top 3 teams will remain the same ones this year for nationals and will end up going to world. It would be the first time for S/B and they need to go and do well there, as they most likely will be on the olympic team, and perhaps even in the team event.. so they have to get international mileage.


Dance : well....Canada didn't perform this weekend... I think that V/M will battle with the Shibs for gold this year. P/C haven't yet shown enough wow in their dances IMHO but it's very early in the season.
 
I totally agree with everything you say about Gabby. Despite some mistakes, I still think she was lowballed and should have won the bronze. Ah well, onto the next for Gabby. :)

Gabby lost out on the bronze because:

a. in the SP, her 3/3 was 3z+3t<< and Mihara got credit for a fully rotated 3z+3t, putting Gabby 1.25 points behind.
b. both had mistakes in the FS, but Gabby had higher TES than Mihara. What cost her the bronze was the fall on the lutz and the doubled loop. Gabby couldn't afford any mistakes because she had to make up the SP gap
 
that is if you believe that Mai has better PCS than gabby... if gabby had higher TES In the FP, covering that gap, and the girls were just even in PCS, Gabby would have won the bronze... they gave higher PCS to Mai... and in the SP, I'd be fine with that but not in the FP. Her packaging was juniorish said commentators.
Gabby lost out on the bronze because:

a. in the SP, her 3/3 was 3z+3t<< and Mihara got credit for a fully rotated 3z+3t, putting Gabby 1.25 points behind.
b. both had mistakes in the FS, but Gabby had higher TES than Mihara. What cost her the bronze was the fall on the lutz and the doubled loop. Gabby couldn't afford any mistakes because she had to make up the SP gap
 
I'm assuming the 'commentators' were Canadian. Of course they would say that! The point is if even if your opponent is young and juniorish, if she rotates and lands her jumps, it's best to have as few mistakes as possible. Gabby has been competing in the GP for a number of year now and finishing in 4th-5th place, so if she wants a PCS boost from the judges, she has to deliver clean programs.
 
that is if you believe that Mai has better PCS than gabby... if gabby had higher TES In the FP, covering that gap, and the girls were just even in PCS, Gabby would have won the bronze... they gave higher PCS to Mai... and in the SP, I'd be fine with that but not in the FP. Her packaging was juniorish said commentators.

While the overall gap was more than the PCS differential in the freeskate, it's still hard to justify the relative PCS that Gabby received as compared to not only Mai but others on the podium. [I acknowledge that Gabby's downgraded GOE on the 3Lz and edgecall on the 3F are definitely part of the story. But those downgrades were scored in the TES and didn't really impact the rest of the program...]

Just to reinforce....Here follow the ISU regs for PCS for skating skills, transitions and composition... to get top marks in a category, the skater should really demonstrate all the things listed in the category. IMO Mai did not do more than Gabby in SS, TR or Composition, but their comparative FS scores were:

Gabby SS 7.71 TR 7.32 CO 7.61

Mai SS 7.96 TR 7.57 CO 7.86

I think that it would be hard to justify that Gabby covered less of the criteria below, but on these three PCS components alone she lost .74 points relative to Mai....

Skating Skills
Defined by overall cleanness and sureness, edge control and flow over the ice surface demonstrated by a command of the skating vocabulary (edges, steps, turns etc.), the clarity of technique and the use of effortless power to accelerate and vary speed. In evaluating the Skating Skills, the following must be considered:
• Use of deep edges, steps and turns;
• Balance, rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement;
• Flow and glide;
• Varied use of power, speed and acceleration;
• Use of multi directional skating;
• Use of one foot skating.

Transitions The varied and purposeful use of intricate footwork, positions, movements and holds that link all elements. In evaluating the Transitions, the following must be considered:
• Continuity of movements from one element to another (all disciplines);
• Variety (including variety of holds in Ice Dance);
• Difficulty;
• Quality.

Composition
An intentionally developed and/or original arrangement of all types of movementsaccording to the principles of musical phrase, space, pattern, and structure. In evaluating the Composition, the following must be considered:
• Purpose (idea, concept, vision, mood);
• Pattern / ice coverage;
• Multidimensional use of space and design of movements;
• Phrase and form (movements and parts structured to match the musicalphrase);
• Originality of the composition.
 
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Gabby had tons of difficult transitions... ton of speed and flow... sometimes... I wonder...

I remember Mickey Rooney, in one of his last interviews, talking about the current state of Hollywood movie stars. He said that in order to be considered for current film roles, you have to be in "the Club". I am feeling the same about the state of women's skating at this moment, that unless you are from one of 3 countries, your odds are slim to none of breaking the glass ceiling, regardless of ability.

Well, I am hoping this changes this weekend with Kaetlyn and Alaine, breaking the clubhouse rules. Time to shakes things up ladies!
 
Here is how each of the judges rated Mihara and Daleman on those components in the FS:

SKATING SKILLS

DALEMAN / MIHARA

7.75 / 7.75 TUR
7.50 / 8.00 KOR
7.50 / 7.25 USA
8.00 / 8.00 RUS
7.50 / 8.00 JPN
7.75 / 9.00 LAT
7.75 / 7.50 FRA
7.75 / 8.50 ITA
8.25 / 8.00 CAN

TRANSITIONS

7.75 / 7.25 TUR
6.50 / 7.25 KOR
7.25 / 7.50 USA
7.50 / 7.75 RUS
7.00 / 7.50 JPN
7.00 / 8.25 LAT
7.50 / 7.50 FRA
7.25 / 8.00 ITA
8.00 / 7.50 CAN

COMPOSITION
8.00 / 7.50 TUR
7.50 / 7.75 KOR
7.50 / 7.00 USA
7.75 / 8.00 RUS
7.25 / 8.00 JPN
7.25 / 8.50 LAT
7.75 / 7.75 FRA
7.75 / 8.25 ITA
8.25 / 7.50 CAN

That's how the judges saw it.....
 
Yes, it is discouraging to see that the great majority of the judges don't agree with ardent fandom.

It's also interesting to note how the Canadian judge ranked Gabby Daleman vs. Mariah Bell (who won the FS):

BELL / DALEMAN

8.25 / 8.25 SKATING SKILLS
7.75 / 8.00 TRANSITIONS
8.00 / 8.50 PERFORMANCE !!
8.00 / 8.00 COMPOSITION
8.00 / 8.25 INTERPRETATION
 
4everchan were you listening to the commentary on CBC website? If so, then that commentary came from Ice Network.

Gabby probably feels bad about losing the bronze, but she's smart enough to know that she's got some work to do to make up the difference to a podium finish. She did better than some ladies who have beat her in the past and were expected to beat her in Chicago, so that should be encouraging. Girls like Gabby don't cry into their mugs at results like these. They go out there and compete. Last year Gabby even went to Challenge and put up scores that were pretty bang on with what she earned at Worlds despite having a bye to Nationals. She treated the event almost like a trip to Grand Prix Final. She's likely already sharpening her skills for Paris. We (fans) should move on too.

The exciting match up of Kaetlyn Osmond and Alaine Chartrand awaits us. :dance3: Ladies are first up on Friday so we don't need to wait long. Do you guys think we'll see that 3F-3T from Kaetlyn again? That'd make things exciting!
 
^^ If I recall it was Tonia K. who commented when I listened.

I am also not worried about Gabby medaling or not... she knows better than that. She also knows that she should have listened to me ;) 3t-3t in sp gabby!!!

she also knows that she couldn't pop a loop....

so, I think a true competitor, and she certainly is one, knows that first and foremost, before looking at what others have done, they need to look at themselves.
She would have skated to her full potential, like at Nationals, and she may have challenged for gold...and certainly for silver. What I like about Gabby is her attitude. In the kiss and cry after the LP she was already talking to her coach about changing some of the choreography because she doesn't have time to get to where she needs to be etc.... that means that she's always looking to fix things, make them better, and what lady does a high rippon true lutz? :) Seriously, as I said before, every weekend, one of our canadian girls skates and i have a new favourite. After Finlandia I was crazy all over about Kaetlyn... and now it's Gabby ;) and who knows who it will be next week!

I think Kaetlyn will bring on the 3F-3T :)
 
Yes, it is discouraging to see that the great majority of the judges don't agree with ardent fandom.

It's also interesting to note how the Canadian judge ranked Gabby Daleman vs. Mariah Bell (who won the FS):

BELL / DALEMAN


8.25 / 8.25 SKATING SKILLS
7.75 / 8.00 TRANSITIONS
8.00 / 8.50 PERFORMANCE !!
8.00 / 8.00 COMPOSITION
8.00 / 8.25 INTERPRETATION

Transitions : easy to understand.. Performance and Interpretation can simply mean that Gabby really skated well to her Gerswhin. She really expressed the nuance of the music and despite the one big fall, the performance really was commendable. I liked Mariah's skating this weekend. She deserved to win the free 100% no issues there. But, even if I enjoyed her skating, aside from the gorgeous choreographic sequence (spirals) and the beautiful 3lZ-3T, i have very little recollection of her program. It was relatively cookie cutter princess on ice type of skating. How many of those have we seen? So that for me is reflected in performance and interpretation, as well as in composition. In fact, Gabby should be ahead in Composition too. Call me a diehard fan, that's fine... I have no issue defending my point of view, especially when it's shared by a qualified judge.
 
4everchan were you listening to the commentary on CBC website? If so, then that commentary came from Ice Network.

Last year Gabby even went to Challenge and put up scores that were pretty bang on with what she earned at Worlds despite having a bye to Nationals. She treated the event almost like a trip to Grand Prix Final.!

Thanks for the reminder.....:agree:

One of the things I've been pondering the last couple of days is why isn't Skate Canada doing it's utmost to maximize the number of competitions for its rising senior skaters....:think:

In Skate Canada's LATD, the development stage just before the peak "Live to compete / Live to Win" phase which we can safely say Patrick Chan, D/R or V/M are in, is called "Train to compete".

While in principle skaters should be out of this phase when they get to the national team level, some of the key development objectives for "Train to compete" are really relevant. At this level, skaters should be gaining consistency to deliver what they do in training in competition, and to ride through the inevitable difficult competition environments.

One of the things that struck me is that the LATD indicates that at this stage skaters should be competing 25% of the time. At this point, the science seems to be saying that frequent competition is needed to support the psychological development.

The questions that I have then are

[1]--"Are our rising women stars still needing more competition than they currently are getting in order to reach that experienced consistency they need?"

[2] ---"Is Skate Canada supporting the national team members to get sufficient competition experience?"

My thoughts:

[1] While Kaetlyn is further along, it looks as though Gabby, Alaine and Veronik could use more competition experience than the early summer season, 1 Challenger and whatever GP events can provide. Clearly, Gabby and her team think so if they are taking advantage of Challenger when she has a bye. The number of national team members from the US or Canada at any given summer event [Detroit, Minto, Thornhill etc.] is small, which means that there is modest strength-on-strength competition. It's a good place to premiere new programs and work out the kinks, but isn't likely building consistency and resilience. Yes, there is a trade off with training time, but if it is competition experience that delivers the consistency needed to actually put the training out on the ice when it counts, then the current balance may not be right for the skaters below the top 5 at worlds level....

[2] Actually, looking at how the Russians have their skaters out at as many Challengers and other ISU international competitions as they can, Canada is putting it's skaters at a disadvantage in terms of competition experience. Even the US is giving it's top skaters the opportunity of two Challengers, especially the ice dance teams, but some of the top men and women as well. Funding is likely a constraint....but if the objective is to "own the podium" in Sport Canada's parlance, making sure that skaters are able to deliver podium quality performances on in both SP and FS in any given competition would seem to be a priority...
 
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Transitions : easy to understand.. Performance and Interpretation can simply mean that Gabby really skated well to her Gerswhin. She really expressed the nuance of the music and despite the one big fall, the performance really was commendable. I liked Mariah's skating this weekend. She deserved to win the free 100% no issues there. But, even if I enjoyed her skating, aside from the gorgeous choreographic sequence (spirals) and the beautiful 3lZ-3T, i have very little recollection of her program. It was relatively cookie cutter princess on ice type of skating. How many of those have we seen? So that for me is reflected in performance and interpretation, as well as in composition. In fact, Gabby should be ahead in Composition too. Call me a diehard fan, that's fine... I have no issue defending my point of view, especially when it's shared by a qualified judge.

That judge may be technically qualified, but her judging was biased, to say the least.

Here are the final, official scores reflecting the combined views of all the judges for Mariah vs Gabby:
Compare the official scores to the scores given by the US and Canadian judges
7.93 7.75 8.32 8.07 8.21 Bell (Official)
7.50 7.75 8.75 8.00 8.50 Bell (USA judge Rosenbluth)


7.71 7.32 7.75 7.61 7.75 Daleman (Official)
8.25 8.00 8.50 8.00 8.25 Daleman (CAN judge Benson)

Since Benson's scores were way out of line with the other judges' scores, they would have been thrown out, so it didn't do any good to overscore Gabby so drastically. As an experienced judge, she should have known that.
 
Thanks for the reminder.....:agree:

One of the things I've been pondering the last couple of days is why isn't Skate Canada doing it's utmost to maximize the number of competitions for its rising senior skaters....:think:

In Skate Canada's LATD, the development stage just before the peak "Live to compete / Live to Win" phase which we can safely say Patrick Chan, D/R or V/M are in, is called "Train to compete".

While in principle skaters should be out of this phase when they get to the national team level, some of the key development objectives for "Train to compete" are really relevant. At this level, skaters should be gaining consistency to deliver what they do in training in competition, and to ride through the inevitable difficult competition environments.

One of the things that struck me is that the LATD indicates that at this stage skaters should be competing 25% of the time. At this point, the science seems to be saying that frequent competition is needed to support the psychological development.

The questions that I have then are

[1]--"Are our rising women stars still needing more competition than they currently are getting in order to reach that experienced consistency they need?"

[2] ---"Is Skate Canada supporting the national team members to get sufficient competition experience?"

My thoughts:

[1] While Kaetlyn is further along, it looks as though Gabby, Alaine and Veronik could use more competition experience than the early summer season, 1 Challenger and whatever GP events can provide. Clearly, Gabby and her team think so if they are taking advantage of Challenger when she has a bye. The number of national team members from the US or Canada at any given summer event [Detroit, Minto, Thornhill etc.] is small, which means that there is modest strength-on-strength competition. It's a good place to premiere new programs and work out the kinks, but isn't likely building consistency and resilience. Yes, there is a trade off with training time, but if it is competition experience that delivers the consistency needed to actually put the training out on the ice when it counts, then the current balance may not be right for the skaters below the top 5 at worlds level....

[2] Actually, looking at how the Russians have their skaters out at as many Challengers and other ISU international competitions as they can, Canada is putting it's skaters at a disadvantage in terms of competition experience. Even the US is giving it's top skaters the opportunity of two Challengers, especially the ice dance teams, but some of the top men and women as well. Funding is likely a constraint....but if the objective is to "own the podium" in Sport Canada's parlance, making sure that skaters are able to deliver podium quality performances on in both SP and FS in any given competition would seem to be a priority...

You know I don't think Skate Canada is going to get its athletes out to more competitions. I've seen it with the juniors and the ice dancers. It just doesn't happen. Some skaters actively seek out more competition on their own - Kaetlyn Osmond came to Thornhill this summer to compete with Gabby who withdrew due to what we suspect was an injury. A few ice dance teams went to Lake Placid and to Minto. But normally it's very limited, as you say. It's likely lack of funding. Very disappointing to see.

On the other hand, I think performing in ice shows helps. You don't see the top Japanese skaters going to a lot of competitions before the season starts, but they participate in lots of ice shows. You mentioned Kaetlyn being seasoned - part of that may come from touring Canada with Stars on Ice. Alaine has never been invited to do SOI (likely because she has no Olympic or World medal) and Gabby was still in school until now so she couldn't have gone. Maybe one of them will get to join the cast next year, and that will help them get more comfortable with performing.
 
That judge may be technically qualified, but her judging was biased, to say the least.

Here are the final, official scores reflecting the combined views of all the judges for Mariah vs Gabby:
Compare the official scores to the scores given by the US and Canadian judges
7.93 7.75 8.32 8.07 8.21 Bell (Official)
7.50 7.75 8.75 8.00 8.50 Bell (USA judge Rosenbluth)


7.71 7.32 7.75 7.61 7.75 Daleman (Official)
8.25 8.00 8.50 8.00 8.25 Daleman (CAN judge Benson)

Since Benson's scores were way out of line with the other judges' scores, they would have been thrown out, so it didn't do any good to overscore Gabby so drastically. As an experienced judge, she should have known that
.

Chuckm, I think we have had a conversation last year when I said to you, if you want to look at data for analysis, let's look at ALL data. Taking one american judge scores for bell comparing to a canadian judges for daleman means NOTHING. Was the Canadian judge always out of line? Was she only for Daleman? Was the american judge always so much closer to average??? etc... and on top of that, as they do indeed remove the highest and lowest scores, the average is affected so it would require in depth analysis here...If I understand correctly, it's not a full set of scores by a judge that is removed but each component sees its lowest and highest score removed.

Let me give you an example. If two judges marked down Gabby in performance because she did sit down on her lutz, only one of those scores is removed.... making the Canadian judge's high score stand out compared to the lower average. She could easily argue why she thought the Rippon lutz fall didn't affect in her opinion the performance level.

So, in light of that, if you wish to discuss scoring, please do not bring partial data and give it whatever meaning you wish for. I can do the same you know... We can all make statistics say whatever we want using them that way.
 
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