2016 Skate Canada Men's LP

[Tallorder]

While there was an argument last season in support of GOE going from +/-3 to +/-5 starting in 2018/19 season, driven somewhat by the notion that Yuzu was not being adequately rewarded insome instances by a +3 ... I would say there are other disciplines, dance in particular where the expanded criteria/scoring options would make sense/help.

 

[ks777]

Most of Chinese fans say they won't watch figure skating anymore once Yuzuru retires. I know many fans in Asia will do the same though, sadly.

This has to be a joke. Many people like figure skating because they like figure skating, not because they only like one skater. How do You know that many fans in Asian will not watching figure skating after Yuzuru retires?? Because you talked to a few of your friends in Asia?? Figure skating has been a big sport in Japan way before Yuzuru became a superstar... Mao is more popular than Yuzuru in Japan and even if Mao retires, people will not stop watching the sport. So stop making crap up. You do NOT speak for many fans in Asia.

 

[Arriba627]

I can't imagine SA ever refusing Hanyu. Per Orser, it was Hanyu's fans who filled up half the seats at SC. If he had been at SA, I don't think two-thirds of the seats would have been empty. Even though both Mao and Shoma were there, their combined presence was not enough to make a real difference in turnout.

One of the reasons for the lower attendance was that there was a very important competition (Great Lakes Regional) for skaters for U.S. Nationals. So disappointing that it was this weekend -- disappointing for the attendance and I would imagine very disappointing for all the young skaters who would have loved to have seen lots of their American favorites, plus Shoma, Mao, and many others. Very poor timing. And that doesn't even take into consideration the effect the Chicago Cubs had on the attendance. For those of us who were there, it was a fun event, but it would have been better with more people...It would be great if Yuzu would do Skate America.

 

[Skater Boy]

The more things change the more the stay the same. People's favoritism for certainskaters are so clear. I agree I don't understand why the judges came to certain conclusions but they are judges and we aren't. Probably for good reason. I am not sure if Patrick was overscored with GOES or not comapred to Hanyu but equal argumnets codl be m ade that Hanyu was overmarked in pcs and his wholeprogram int he sp. Then you have a problem that while I don't understand the scoring system but a fall on a quad especially a loop or flip or lutz is worth like a triple lutz.so you do the math. if you maxed out and you are using a double axel replace it with say a quad loop and get it rotated with a fall and yo will get a good 6 or 7 pts I think which you couldn't get with a maxed out double axel in the second half and plus 3 goe.

 

[amc987]

How much "marred" seems a bit of a personal assessment....But it's important to keep in mind that this isn't 6.0 judging wherein "artistic impression" was tightly linked to technical performance. Under COP, TES is TES, and GOE is where the impact of a less than ideal freeskate element appears...

PCS has some very concrete things to be assessed and valued, particularly in the area of SS and TR, and even CO. Getting all the criteria vs. most of them makes the difference in these scores. If you feel strongly about this, and would like to understand why Patrick seems to score so highly, I'd encourage you to look at his program with the criteria checklists for these program components and see for yourself that his program built these in.

[BTW I would like to credit my understanding of this to a poster who demonstrated how Carolina Kostner's SS and TR merited higher marks because she managed to hit every single criteria for each regardless of how well her freeskate elements went.]


Here's the link again... Program Component Scoring is on pp. 78-80

http://static.isu.org/media/1003/20...ce-and-technical-rules-sandp-and-id_final.pdf

I thought that one of the big criticisms of PCS is that it is strongly linked to technical ability and execution- components go up across the board if the skater does a clean program. I do think there should be a connection between the two if it's negative- i.e., a skater shouldn't be able to get above 9 for PE and IN with a messy program no matter how good his/her flow over the ice is. I see your point about Chan's superior skating skills and maybe transitions. I think Yuzu should be tied or winning the other components even after having read the (pretty broad) criteria. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

 

[TGee]

I thought that one of the big criticisms of PCS is that it is strongly linked to technical ability and execution- components go up across the board if the skater does a clean program. I do think there should be a connection between the two if it's negative- i.e., a skater shouldn't be able to get above 9 for PE and IN with a messy program no matter how good his/her flow over the ice is. I see your point about Chan's superior skating skills and maybe transitions. I think Yuzu should be tied or winning the other components even after having read the (pretty broad) criteria. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

Kudos to you for taking an objective look.:2thumbs:

As the poster about Carolina Kostner remarked, without understanding the PCS criteria, it's really difficult to understand what is supposed to be going on with the judging in this area. [Wish I could recall who it was, it was really helpful to me....]

Totally agree that not all the Program Component Scoring has reached the ideal of separating it from the TES...

I would like to note that there have been a number of GS posters raising the concern that PCS can be based on the status of champions or past performance of top ranked senior skaters rather than their actual skating on the day. So, in that sense, it risks reverting to something close to 6.0 judging in my view and that of what seems to be many others...

But there are some new rules in this area in the 2016 update, as well as an end to anonymous judging, so that there is cautious hope for better things, and some are noting improvements in PCS scoring during the JPG. ....Perhaps we'll see some inconsistency as things sort out for the seniors during GP season....

But SS and TR seem to have the most objective criteria, and therefore are most independent from TES. And some GS posters argue that they should be moved to technical scoring...but this is problematic because the TeS is done an element by element basis, while SS and TR are evaluated over the entire program like the other program components.

Patrick Chan like Carolina Kostner excels in SS and works with choreographers to ensure all the TRs are there because they have strength in those too. It's good strategy to take advantage of their strengths and build them in so that when other things don't go well, they provide a base.

In my view, this is no more or less fair than certain skaters counting on their jumps or their spins as consistent areas of performance, and then consistent scores.

It seems like we'll still have to disagree on ceilings on SS and TR when the program has technical issues...it's not artistic impression that's being measured, and how much the cumulative technical errors impact the overall program really does logically show up in performance, composition and interpretation. I agree that a "messy skate" should impact those... Last night, to be honest, I think that both programs had their deficiencies in these last 3 and it's hard to make a strong case that one was clearly better than the other....

 

[Blades of Passion]

So stripping away the jumps, I'd say that Brezina has a smoother, more complex FS with more choreography than Shoma's, especially because Shoma's FS has a lot of 2-footed skating of cross-overs and glides. The 2nd half, especially, was unbearable for me, as unbearable as any other "empty" programs with mostly jumps by any other skater. I said the same about Ashley's Moulin Rouge, for the record.

It's not enough to opine that Shoma is "special" to explain a huge 10 pt PCS difference between him and Brezina. It's back to the bad old days - I like him, I like his style, therefore that's enough to ensure he gets "special" treatment.

Well "style" is important, in that a skater needs to present a style in their skating. Shoma has a ton of it, he moves with the music and utilizes his body in interesting ways and you can feel his soul. Brezina...doesn't. The range of motion of his body is rather shallow and he doesn't main a clear expression and idea throughout his performance. He doesn't make his movements and positions super important, as in every movement showcasing a meaning and emotion and distinct picture, the placements of the feet and arms. His spins are nothing special. That little "fan spiral" he tries to do at the end of the program is terrible. The whole end of the program ran out of energy and missed the music too.

I don't see how Brezina's skating can be called "smoother" either? I've just watched the performance again and, yeah, there are choppy aspects to his skating. Like that hitch-kick he tries to do and several jump exits. He has a considerable set-up into every jump of the program too. It was a good performance from him, his best in a LONG time, but hardly anywhere close to deserving 90 PCS.

 

[padme21]

So I finally watched Hanyu's FS. I loved it more and more each time I watched. (Confession: I must of hit the replay button on YouTube for nearly an hour.) I really liked the music especially the crescendo in the middle of the program. Since I play the violin I'm naturally a sucker for classic music. I'm hoping that Hanyu doesn't skip 4CC this year. It's in South Korea and personally think that he would have more success at worlds if he had a "warmup" competition before the "big one" aka worlds.

 

[eta]

So I finally watched Hanyu's FS. I loved it more and more each time I watched. (Confession: I must of hit the replay button on YouTube for nearly an hour.) I really liked the music especially the crescendo in the middle of the program. Since I play the violin I'm naturally a sucker for classic music. I'm hoping that Hanyu doesn't skip 4CC this year. It's in South Korea and personally think that he would have more success at worlds if he had a "warmup" competition before the "big one" aka worlds.

If I remember correctly Yuzu did say he wanted to do 4CC this time since Olympics will be in South Korea. All depends on JSF and how he does in nationals I think?

 

[Dee4707]

Love watching Patrick skate. I know his program will be even better in time.

 

[Meoima]

This has to be a joke. Many people like figure skating because they like figure skating, not because they only like one skater. How do You know that many fans in Asian will not watching figure skating after Yuzuru retires?? Because you talked to a few of your friends in Asia?? Figure skating has been a big sport in Japan way before Yuzuru became a superstar... Mao is more popular than Yuzuru in Japan and even if Mao retires, people will not stop watching the sport. So stop making crap up. You do NOT speak for many fans in Asia.

Darling, go to Baidu and read what they say. I am not making up their words. And I am member of other Asian fan groups as well, I also play tumblr. I assume you don't mind them leaving the sport. I didn't say I mind them leaving the sport after Yuzuru retires either. They're all very young, under 25 so their taste change all the time. If they leave then it's ok, other new fans will come.
And if there is anything I am sure Yuzuru is more famous in China than Mao. His fan fest in Chinese forum has over 17.000 fans, Mao had like... less than half of it.

 

[Jaana]

I have followed figure skating since early sixties. During this long time there has been lots and lots of favourite skaters, sometimes only one and sometimes several at the same time. Very early I learned that skaters come up onto the scene and leave the scene, but the sport of figure skating continues and always new favourites will arrive.... To me it sounds really shallow, that somebody stops watching figure skating because a big favourite leaves the skating.

 

[Meoima]

I have followed figure skating since early sixties. During this long time there has been lots and lots of favourite skaters, sometimes only one and sometimes several at the same time. Very early I learned that skaters come up onto the scene and leave the scene, but the sport of figure skating continues and always new favourites will arrive.... To me it sounds really shallow, that somebody stops watching figure skating because a big favourite leaves the skating.

i disagree. If they go then they go, what's the problem? I have seen some blog dedicated to Mao and Yuna said now hey all retire they don't have more attachments to figure skating anymore. It's normal.

 

[qwertyskates]

Well "style" is important, in that a skater needs to present a style in their skating. Shoma has a ton of it, he moves with the music and utilizes his body in interesting ways and you can feel his soul. Brezina...doesn't. The range of motion of his body is rather shallow and he doesn't main a clear expression and idea throughout his performance. He doesn't make his movements and positions super important, as in every movement showcasing a meaning and emotion and distinct picture, the placements of the feet and arms. His spins are nothing special. That little "fan spiral" he tries to do at the end of the program is terrible. The whole end of the program ran out of energy and missed the music too.

I don't see how Brezina's skating can be called "smoother" either? I've just watched the performance again and, yeah, there are choppy aspects to his skating. Like that hitch-kick he tries to do and several jump exits. He has a considerable set-up into every jump of the program too. It was a good performance from him, his best in a LONG time, but hardly anywhere close to deserving 90 PCS.

The "style" of both of their programs are so very different - Tango and Cowboy, Brezina rightly skated in a humorous, eccentric style with cowboy gestures. There were a lot of transitions going into his jumps all the way till the end. He's a very hardworking skater.

His SP is the opposite, debonair and elegant, so his style changes according to his programs. His posture isn't worse than Hanyu or Kovtun, about as straight as a skater can get for the lanky frame.

Shoma in fact doesn't move out of his comfort zone, Turandot and this Tango are so similar, he doesn't get the same flak as Evgenia does for doing similar programs 2 seasons in a row. PCS doesn't have a category for this specific area of "style", and different programs will require different styles of skating. So I'm still waiting to hear in terms of CH, TR, etc. how Shoma is head and shoulders above everyone. If he was clean he would get 93-94, close to Patrick's best, and that's only 2nd year in Senior's.

If Javier, Jason, Adam, Patrick start doing this I'll also find it unacceptable, and they're already veterans.

Jumps are definitely easier if there isn't much else you're doing for the FS, which is long and taxing. It gives an unfair advantage.

The purpose of PCS is thus defeated, the Artistry of the program suffers.

While Brezina has some bad performances, he also did very well on many occasions. I suspect Brezina is always low-balled because he doesn't belong to a powerful skating Fed. I feel sorry for all the skaters who put in extra efforts to deliver a complex, intricate piece but still get low PCS, it's as bad as getting away with UR while others did FR, and I want to see efforts at better Artistry awarded.

 

[Blades of Passion]

The "style" of both of their programs are so very different - Tango and Cowboy, Brezina rightly skated in a humorous, eccentric style with cowboy gestures. There were a lot of transitions going into his jumps all the way till the end.

Wait, humorous, what?? Brezina is skating to a mixture of Morricone music, namely Once Upon a Time in the West (not humorous), The Mission (not humorous), and The Untouchables (not humorous). It was a serious theme throughout the entire thing and in his performance too, so I'm really not sure what you were seeing here.

What you say about the transitions is simply not true. There were no transitions directly into any of his jumps, he always pauses before going into the jumps. Such as the 2nd Triple Axel of the program, yes he does some turns leading towards the jump, but then he stops and just waits on the edge before jumping. This is not necessarily bad if you don't make it look like you are preparing for a jump, but he always does look like he is preparing. It's a break in the performance, every single time from him. It's also inherently less difficult in terms of the transitions score. I suppose the 2nd Triple Flip of the program did have a counter hop directly into the three-turn for the jump, but it was still a rather mechanical movement instead of fluid. The hop instead of doing an actual counter turn makes it much easier.

Shoma in fact doesn't move out of his comfort zone, Turandot and this Tango are so similar

How are his Turandot and Tango "so similar", aside from the cantilever and final spin that he does in both programs? The choreography is totally different otherwise, as is his expression in many parts.

 

[noskates]

My earliest fan favorite was Kurt Browning. Up to that time I had been nationalistic and liked the US men, but Kurt was the first non-US skater that really intrigued me and I grew to love his skating and figure skating in general. Once Kurt retired it was someone else, and then someone else, and then someone else. I love figure skating and I'm always going to have a favorite or two. I don't think I'm that different than most of the fans. It's the same with baseball, football, soccer, tennis and golf. I love to watch certain people but I can appreciate the sport regardless. To me this is human nature and a love of sports in general.

If I had to pick one thing that I dislike intensely about this scoring system - and we talk about this ALL the time on this board - is that a fall does not have more of a penalty. I don't care if you've rotated the jump. A fall is a fall. It seems like URs carry more of a penalty than landing on your butt on the ice. It's because of this that I think many of the young men (and probably ladies in pairs teams) are going to suffer injuries. "Oh what the heck. If we rotate it we'll still get points - even if we can't land the jump!" I can appreciate a quad when it's executed beautifully - just like I can appreciate other jumps. What I can't appreciate is a poorly rotated or dead-from-the-beginning quad jump that still garners points. Something inherently wrong with that.

 

[Sydney Rose]

I have followed figure skating since early sixties. During this long time there has been lots and lots of favourite skaters, sometimes only one and sometimes several at the same time. Very early I learned that skaters come up onto the scene and leave the scene, but the sport of figure skating continues and always new favourites will arrive.... To me it sounds really shallow, that somebody stops watching figure skating because a big favourite leaves the skating.

You're completely missing the point. Hanyu has attracted people to figure skating who would otherwise not be watching the sport. Why would they continue to watch it after he retires?

Like you, I was a FS fan for decades. But unlike you, I became increasingly bored with its failure to evolve over time. And, as most of its former fans in North America and Europe have done, I gradually stopped paying attention to it.

Then a few years ago I happened to see some video of Hanyu and was captivated by him; he was the most unique skater I'd seen since Torvill and Dean. And so I began to follow FS again to see what this amazing creature could do. He has never disappointed me and I continue to be astonished by him, both as a skater and as a human being.

But when he retires from competitive skating, I'm pretty sure I'll retire from watching it. Why? Because most of it is BORING. Boring and dated. FS is still decades behind the times. It failed to evolve as it needed to in order to stay relevant and now the sport is paying the price for it. I know no one in real life who watches it today but I knew quite a few who did back in the 1980s (way before Tonya and Nancy). And as a consequence of its dwindling fan base, there is virtually no critical analysis of it by journalists anymore, no objective monitoring of its always suspect judging system. That really, really bothers me.

I do think the ISU may have finally recognized at least some of the mistakes they've made and are belatedly trying to revive it. But, judging from comments I read on forums like this, many diehard fans are still utterly clueless that this sport they're passionate about is on life support. And I find that almost as astonishing as I do Yuzuru Hanyu.

 

[Meoima]

You're completely missing the point. Hanyu has attracted people to figure skating who would otherwise not be watching the sport. Why would they continue to watch it after he retires?

Like you, I was a FS fan for decades. But unlike you, I became increasingly bored with its failure to evolve over time. And, as most of its former fans in North America and Europe have done, I gradually stopped paying attention to it.

Then a few years ago I happened to see some video of Hanyu and was captivated by him; he was the most unique skater I'd seen since Torvill and Dean. And so I began to follow FS again to see what this amazing creature could do. He has never disappointed me and I continue to be astonished by him, both as a skater and as a human being.

But when he retires from competitive skating, I'm pretty sure I'll retire from watching it. Why? Because most of it is BORING. Boring and dated. FS is still decades behind the times. It failed to evolve as it needed to in order to stay relevant and now the sport is paying the price for it. I know no one in real life who watches it today but I knew quite a few who did back in the 1980s (way before Tonya and Nancy). And as a consequence of its dwindling fan base, there is virtually no critical analysis of it by journalists anymore, no objective monitoring of its always suspect judging system. That really, really bothers me.

I do think the ISU may have finally recognized at least some of the mistakes they've made and are belatedly trying to revive it. But, judging from comments I read on forums like this, many diehard fans are still utterly clueless that this sport they're passionate about is on life support. And I find that almost as astonishing as I do Yuzuru Hanyu.

Thank you for your experience. I also watched FS ever since I was a kid but only because television showed it. I lost my interest after 2006 and only came back to this sport at WC 2012.

We do need more skaters with star power like Yuzuru to shine in this sport. Of course I hope more stars will come. It will help with the public appearance of figure skating as well. There is a reason why suddenly so many young people start watching FS when they see Yuzuru on tumblr. I have played tumbr ever since it first days and the attention that young people are giving to FS truly amazes me. Yuzuru has been a tropic trending on tumblr for at least 6 times (Olympic team, Olympic individual, WC 2014, CoC 2014, GPF 2014, NHK 2015, GPF 2015). And it's astonishing because usually tumblr doesn't care about skating. Of course it's nowhere near the big fandom like dramas, pop, movies... but it's a positive sign we have someone like Yuzuru to attract young fans.

And by the way... My gosh https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10209811041927713&set=p.10209811041927713&type=3&theater

The MP3 of Notte Stellata (The Swan) that Yuzuru uses for his exhibition program is ranked first on Amazon JP today, both in "Kids & Family" and "Variety sound effects" categories. :shocked::shocked::shocked:

This track went from "Unranked" to #1 in "last 24 hrs sales" after music was announced. Only because Yuzuru chose this song as his exhibition program this season. :roll9: wow... Japanese fans amaze me.

 

[qwertyskates]

Wait, humorous, what?? Brezina is skating to a mixture of Morricone music, namely Once Upon a Time in the West (not humorous), The Mission (not humorous), and The Untouchables (not humorous). It was a serious theme throughout the entire thing and in his performance too, so I'm really not sure what you were seeing here.

What you say about the transitions is simply not true. There were no transitions directly into any of his jumps, he always pauses before going into the jumps. Such as the 2nd Triple Axel of the program, yes he does some turns leading towards the jump, but then he stops and just waits on the edge before jumping. This is not necessarily bad if you don't make it look like you are preparing for a jump, but he always does look like he is preparing. It's a break in the performance, every single time from him. It's also inherently less difficult in terms of the transitions score. I suppose the 2nd Triple Flip of the program did have a counter hop directly into the three-turn for the jump, but it was still a rather mechanical movement instead of fluid. The hop instead of doing an actual counter turn makes it much easier.



How are his Turandot and Tango "so similar", aside from the cantilever and final spin that he does in both programs? The choreography is totally different otherwise, as is his expression in many parts.

We just have to agree to disagree - I see more TR CH PE, etc. (PCS values and qualities) in Brezina's LP at SC than Shoma's LP at SA, you don't. The skates are there, so we will all reserve our own judgment.

However, one thing for sure, if Shoma keeps doing the same contents, the same 2-footed skating for a long portion of the FS, he simply won't grow. Many of his rivals might actually prefer that he stays this way.

 

[viennaskater]

Love watching Patrick skate. I know his program will be even better in time.

No matter how hard I try, I cannot enjoy his skating. I find it soulless and I am therefore always left completely unmoved. And it is not as if this LP was faultless - far from it.