2017 Russian Junior Nationals Ladies FS

[silverfoxes]

Alisa is just 14 and had a terrible setback last year with her injury - she couldn't train for over 3 months. I think it's foolish to write her off already. Maybe if she doesn't improve in a season or two she can think about switching disciplines, but it's just ridiculous to act like she is doomed, as if all the girls who finished above her are guaranteed to do better than her from now on. You just don't know. She still managed to beat a lot of other very talented girls here.

 

[CoyoteChris]

Quick wrap-up of what I saw yesterday.

Biggest surprises: Anna Tarusina and Alexandra Trusova. They are very different so that now I will know for sure who is who - their names sound similar. Not knowing them I used to be confused. Anna Tarusina is razor sharp. There were complaints about Zagitova's rushing (will come back later to it). Anna holds beautiful positions - her landings were pristine. It's such a pity about her injury - she could be the next big junior name this season already if she started from the clean slate with Zagitova back at the beginning of JGP series. My biggest concern is that she seems to weigh below 40 kilos - not sure if she can steer through puberty. For Trusova it's just too early to even think of puberty: she is just 12. Now she shows tremendous promise: speed, jumps, presence create the impression of a mature skater despite how tiny she is. We need to watch her. Next season she can easily replicate Zagitova's content with backloading of everything. And I would not be surprised if she goes beyond that.

Disappointments: Sofia Samodurova sort of lost it. I saw her 2 times before. She was anything but boring. This time I was bored. She did not seem to be ready to give it all. May be there is a reason. Alisa Fedichkina: can she be saved? She was so much fun to follow her last season. And she still has a distinctive personality. And she skates more or less clean. But her results cannot be motivating for her: just 11th place at junior nationals free skating program looks like a sentence. Nastya Gubanova: she is still magical but she lost her spark which she had during JGP even though she fell then. With healthy Tsurskaya it was about Gubanova versus Konstantinova who will get the third spot in the team. Unlike Stasya Nastya did not look as if she wanted to give it all.

Did not get it: Panenkova. A jumping machine. Everything else is very rough so far. I wish Gubanova could jump like that. Or vice versa Darya could skate the way Nastya skates. Well, she can work on it. Boyang was just a joke to watch: he still sort of is. But one cannot deny that he has been slowly turning into a complete skater rather than a jumping bean. Gulyakova - never saw her before and cannot say that she impressed me now.

Konstantinova: I said already after the senior nationals and will repeat now: she is different from the rest. You feel she is on the ice when she enters. Her speed especially during the first half can rival that of men's. One funny thing - I could not get it whose skating she reminds me of. My wife who watches may be one third of figure skating compared with me helped me: "she skates like Kolyada" she told me. I looked better: Yes! You got it! Chebotareva's school - that's what it is about. I wish she keeps skating like this: it's truly different. But Stasya, you should finally show a clean FS. She was almost there - she seemed very poised to hold to her 70 points after SP. And then the final triple and a flop, well, may be next time at the junior worlds. Those who say she is not competitive with Yuna Shiraiwa imo do not get it. Yuna S is a good skater but, sorry, her skating is generic. Yes, Stasya lost 9 points to her in FS in Dresden. But Yuna was clean and Stasya had 2 falls and time violation. Despite that her pcs were still higher than Yuna's. Clean Stasya will be a sure podium contender at junior worlds.

Tsurskaya: I am glad she is back with beautiful skating of beautiful programs. I am glad her pcs are higher than Zagitova's. In fact, they should be the highest in the junior world now as she is for me the best junior skater in the world pcs wise with Gubanova and Marin Honda competing for the second place. But I am worried about her jumps. If she brings them back in full glory she can compete with clean Alina through the quality of her jumps. If not her coming to senior world may be challenging. The only way to be in the Russian senior team now is to be an outstanding skater (which she is) and consistently be clean occasionally fighting for landings but not falling and not popping. But the third spot looks to be open with Radio and Sotskova struggling so far. Will be very entertaining to see a cat fight for it next year (I am sure "entertaining" is the last word the skaters themselves would think of).

Zagitova: She peaked at the senior Nationals. This time she rushed through the program. And I think it's not just about the different panel and Judges (I heard the same Lakernik and the same Shekhovtseva) - she got 69 pcs in Chelyabinsk and 67 here: she skated better in Chelyabinsk that's the first and the only reason. And then I started to worry. We all get used to Medvedeva being perfect, that she gets better and better as the season progresses. And as Alina has been appointed as "Medvedeva's heir" we assume she will show the same consistency and the same continuous improvement. May be it is a grave mistake. Zagitova had a terrible meltdown this season - Medvedeva never had meltdowns competing internationally. Then I am a bit worried if Alina can skate during the junior worlds the way she skated at the senior Nationals. Hope, my worries are futile.

Sorry, such a long post: going to Moscow on a train - 4 hours of free time. One last thing. I know it's whining, the whole thing is about diversity, about helping small feds to promote FS in unusual countries. But I saw this immense talent (even in the first group which was also about 7 triple programs with occasional clean 3Lz-3Ts) and that's even not it. For one thing, Lozko with out of this world spins had to stay at home. With all this talent there are just 3 spots in the junior national team. And next year even getting junior GP spots will turn into big fight with so many deserving candidates. It was not like that just a season ago. How not to waste all this talent?

Thanks for the great report!

There is an incredible pool of Russian talent coming up through the ranks, that is for sure.
My intention is not to get political, but a pool of talent this deep doesnt just happen. I would enjoy hearing from our Russian or ? friends on what they attribute this phenomena to?
If a skater shows talent, are they carefully nurtured by the state, basically being given anything they need to succeed?

 

[sabinfire]

My intention is not to get political, but a pool of talent this deep doesnt just happen. I would enjoy hearing from our Russian or ? friends on what they attribute this phenomena to?

Maybe you missed it, reposting here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I5uixqOpH0

 

[CoyoteChris]

Maybe you missed it, reposting here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I5uixqOpH0

Funny! But that short vid did link into a longer 14 minute Parent Vid....Still, the main question was left unanswered. Someone built more rinks....ok. Maybe the state, maybe private enterprise. And skating is more popular maybe. But that doesnt explain
The sudden pool of talent coming along since the "decline and fall of the Russian skating empire" stopped and turned around. At great expense. I have no idea what the rules are now compared to the days of the East German Sports Machine, but I see nothing wrong with a country supporting sports.

 

[Lana05]

Neary all russian couches have left the country in 1990s and yearly 2000s because of many reasons, at first Russia tried to return them back but then started rising new couches and building a lot pf new rinks (I live in a small city in Siberia and even we now have an ice rink, it was made 2 years ago)

 

[vorravorra]

Maybe you missed it, reposting here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I5uixqOpH0

But then not all talented girls come from Eteri - although her success in producing consistent jumping beans (at least before puberty) seems to be about to crowd virtually everyone else out at east at the junior level. It already feels like there should be a separate competition for girls whose main talents are not jumps. But the basis of all this is that figure skating has become very popular with parents of girls (not so much with boys, unfortunately). There is simply a large pool to chose the most talented from, and then to choose the most psychologically resilient from that talent.

 

[vorravorra]

Funny! But that short vid did link into a longer 14 minute Parent Vid....Still, the main question was left unanswered. Someone built more rinks....ok. Maybe the state, maybe private enterprise. And skating is more popular maybe. But that doesnt explain
The sudden pool of talent coming along since the "decline and fall of the Russian skating empire" stopped and turned around. At great expense. I have no idea what the rules are now compared to the days of the East German Sports Machine, but I see nothing wrong with a country supporting sports.

With ladies' skating in particular there isn't currently that much state support simply because it's not needed, enough of them are coming up their own. The Fed tries to direct its support more to disciplines that are not doing so great and need propping up, although it doesn't exactly always help. Those operate in hothouse conditions compared to ladies' skating with its cutthroat competition because the Fed doesn't have much to chose from and they know it.

ETA: obviously all skaters who achieve success are financially supported to various degrees depending on the level of said success but you have to get to that level more or less on your own.

 

[CoyoteChris]

Neary all russian couches have left the country in 1990s and yearly 2000s because of many reasons, at first Russia tried to return them back but then started rising new couches and building a lot pf new rinks (I live in a small city in Siberia and even we now have an ice rink, it was made 2 years ago)

OK, interesting. In Spokane, WA USA and surrounding areas, the rinks are privately funded, or club owned and operated as non-profit organizations... and are used for figure skating and Hockey. There are skating clubs, Like the Lilac City Skating Club, http://lcfsc.org/ one can join and at the rink, Eagles Ice arena, there are seven coaches. Though there are lots of parental and other volunteer hours put in, competitive figure skating in the US is not a cheep sport. Neither is hockey. I would be interested to talk to a skating parent some day and see what the total monitary cost is to get their skater to novice and the junior level to where they are attending regionals and sectionals. I am sure it is not cheep. As far as I know, there is no goverment funding.

 

[CoyoteChris]

With ladies' skating in particular there isn't currently that much state support simply because it's not needed, enough of them are coming up their own. The Fed tries to direct its support more to disciplines that are not doing so great and need propping up, although it doesn't exactly always help. Those operate in hothouse conditions compared to ladies' skating with its cutthroat competition because the Fed doesn't have much to chose from and they know it.

ETA: obviously all skaters who achieve success are financially supported to various degrees depending on the level of said success but you have to get to that level more or less on your own.

OK, that is good info. So after a Russian skater reaches a certain level, the Fed will provide some level of support. The same is basically true in the US although I have to wonder about the different levels, and the different costs between skating in the US and Russia. Perhaps a skater here will chime in with an estimate on what a US parent would have to kick in over the years to have their skater reach say US Novice Champion.

 

[[email protected]]

Thanks for the great report!

There is an incredible pool of Russian talent coming up through the ranks, that is for sure.
My intention is not to get political, but a pool of talent this deep doesnt just happen. I would enjoy hearing from our Russian or ? friends on what they attribute this phenomena to?
If a skater shows talent, are they carefully nurtured by the state, basically being given anything they need to succeed?

Whatever it is it has little to do with the state support. It's more about the dramatic wealth growth in Russia in 2000-2008. We started the millenium with oil below $20 and it reached $140 in 8 years. As a result incomes grew very high (together with real estate prices in Moscow). I bought my apartment at $1500 per sq.m. in 2000. At the peak in 2008 some person offered me 10 times more. Hence, by 2006-2008 there appeared a lot of middle and upper class people. And with those 2 obvious choices in big Russian cities were: boys to football or hockey - girls to gymnastics or figure skating. This first wave that were 4-6 by then are 14-16 now. These are the current crops of Russian juniors. The crisis of 2008-2009 was relatively minor so that I do not expect the pipeline of juniors to dry down. And then it came Sochi and Yulia. Her phenomenon cannot be underestimated. Many my acquaintances had girls in FS - often the girls just went crazy. They cared less about classes - it was just FS and they wanted to be like Yulia. Having this craze with clear role models helped coaches like Eteri to build the strong performance culture. I understand she expects full dedication from her students. Just a year ago she was ready to fire Zagitova who seemed to be not engaged enough. And now she looks like a principal contender for the junior worlds gold.

This cutthroat competition means ruthless filtering, it means "hunger games" - the survival of the fittest. At the bottom of it are thousands of 4-5 year old girls who enter the sport every year. If you have a child and don't have money she will train in a big group at odd times. Then you will still have to buy skates and dresses. It was like that even during the Soviet Union days. My parents bought me skates, my mom made me a brown overalls. I understand that Zagitova is not from a wealthy family: she wears old Medvedeva's dress for her FS. If you have money in Moscow you will be milked for everything including parking place near the rink: my colleague had to pay $15 each time he or his wife brought their daughter for parking. Even if you show talent like Max Trankov you won't get much support from the state before you show serious results: as he moved to St.Petersburg at the age of 16 he had to live first in barracks with soldiers then in a stadium in a room with 3 more skaters. So wealthy parents pay for extra hours, for choreographers. It means that "state supported" children have to show more talent to surpass them.

So state support of figure skating in Russia is highly overrated. For that I would turn to China. They still have communism - Russia not more.

 

[vorravorra]

So state support of figure skating in Russia is highly overrated. For that I would turn to China. They still have communism - Russia not more.

Yes. To use an example I know, although he trained at a state school, Mikhail Kolyada's skating career could have ended 10 years ago because his parents could not afford all the extra expenses. It was only because his coach, who recognised his talent, went out of her way to find financing that he was able to continue (and that financing didn't come from the state).

 

[CoyoteChris]

Whatever it is it has little to do with the state support. It's more about the dramatic wealth growth in Russia in 2000-2008. We started the millenium with oil below $20 and it reached $140 in 8 years. As a result incomes grew very high (together with real estate prices in Moscow). I bought my apartment at $1500 per sq.m. in 2000. At the peak in 2008 some person offered me 10 times more. Hence, by 2006-2008 there appeared a lot of middle and upper class people. And with those 2 obvious choices in big Russian cities were: boys to football or hockey - girls to gymnastics or figure skating. This first wave that were 4-6 by then are 14-16 now. These are the current crops of Russian juniors. The crisis of 2008-2009 was relatively minor so that I do not expect the pipeline of juniors to dry down. And then it came Sochi and Yulia. Her phenomenon cannot be underestimated. Many my acquaintances had girls in FS - often the girls just went crazy. They cared less about classes - it was just FS and they wanted to be like Yulia. Having this craze with clear role models helped coaches like Eteri to build the strong performance culture. I understand she expects full dedication from her students. Just a year ago she was ready to fire Zagitova who seemed to be not engaged enough. And now she looks like a principal contender for the junior worlds gold.

This cutthroat competition means ruthless filtering, it means "hunger games" - the survival of the fittest. At the bottom of it are thousands of 4-5 year old girls who enter the sport every year. If you have a child and don't have money she will train in a big group at odd times. Then you will still have to buy skates and dresses. It was like that even during the Soviet Union days. My parents bought me skates, my mom made me a brown overalls. I understand that Zagitova is not from a wealthy family: she wears old Medvedeva's dress for her FS. If you have money in Moscow you will be milked for everything including parking place near the rink: my colleague had to pay $15 each time he or his wife brought their daughter for parking. Even if you show talent like Max Trankov you won't get much support from the state before you show serious results: as he moved to St.Petersburg at the age of 16 he had to live first in barracks with soldiers then in a stadium in a room with 3 more skaters. So wealthy parents pay for extra hours, for choreographers. It means that "state supported" children have to show more talent to surpass them.

So state support of figure skating in Russia is highly overrated. For that I would turn to China. They still have communism - Russia not more.

Thanks! OK, that is very interesting. Good report. With the price of oil down, my neighbor is now out of work and in general the US Middle class isnt making as much as their parents were and is shrinking. I am clueless as to how that effects the quality of US skaters, or skating in the US is just loosing its popularity. We have an organization that makes it pretty easy to send money to a individual figure skater's skating fund, used only for official skating costs, but I have to wonder with today's technology, if a very easy to use "GoFundMe" type of website could be an asset. If you like Karen Chen's FS, for instance, you hop on your phone and donate $5 to defer her skating costs....boom...done....
Anyway, no matter how it is being done, I love the class acts I saw on the Junior GP circuit this season, no matter who is funding them....

 

[hanca]

It seems to me that children in the west concentrate too much at the overall 'package' and not as much on the skating, and in Russia it is the other way around. If I go to the rink here, the majority kids will have the latest fashion skating clothes, such as Chloe Noel pants, Lululemon jackets, Zuca bag etc. When I see video clips from practice of children of similar ages from Russia, most of them seem to wear just any black pants and top.

 

[Mrs. P]

I understand that Zagitova is not from a wealthy family: she wears old Medvedeva's dress for her FS.

I thought that dress looked familiar when I saw Alina wear it the first time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvKG-vfX6Is

Speaking of which, it was fun to watch that video becauseit really shows how much Evgenia's improved since then. I think back then she was not considered a major contender relative to Yulia Lipnitskaia, Elena Radionova and Maria Sotskova (who beat her at JGPF that season); speaks to her competitive drive.

 

[vorravorra]

Last season Polina Tsurskaya was more about the jumps than anything else and look at her transformation. Maybe something similar can happen to Alina. What I don't like is that Alina is openly talked about as another Yulia - a "win what you can before your body changes" skater. It doesn't mean her jumps will inevitably fall apart like Yulia's did but most likely she will not be able to jump quite like she does now.

 

[hanca]

Last season Polina Tsurskaya was more about the jumps than anything else and look at her transformation. Maybe something similar can happen to Alina. What I don't like is that Alina is openly talked about as another Yulia - a "win what you can before your body changes" skater. It doesn't mean her jumps will inevitably fall apart like Yulia's did but most likely she will not be able to jump quite like she does now.

We don't know that. Puberty didn't hurt Pogorilaya. She had a few seasons of being pretty high but not quite at the top, a few times she got to Europeans and worlds as the lowest ranking Russian skater from those who were sent, and then it sort of settled down for her and she is more consistent than before puberty!

 

[vorravorra]

We don't know that. Puberty didn't hurt Pogorilaya. She had a few seasons of being pretty high but not quite at the top, a few times she got to Europeans and worlds as the lowest ranking Russian skater from those who were sent, and then it sort of settled down for her and she is more consistent than before puberty!

Anna was not a jumping prodigy. The point with Alina is that she is exceptional, at least among those who are eligible to go senior next season. She has outjumped everyone except Medvedeva and there is a big question mark on the latter. Even if Alina retains her jumps in the end, she'll most likely have a transition period when she won't find it as easy. If she wants to have a real shot at winning, it is very important for her to keep her jumps more or less intact. She is currently a kind of female Chen or Jin. Both may not win the Olympics anyway, but if they develop problems with their quads, even comparatively mild and transient, they definitely won't win, unless they somehow manage to increase scores in other areas by leaps and bounds before the Olympics or all the top skaters suddenly forget how to jump. So we come back to the same thing - the goal for Alina is to get to the Olympics before puberty hits.

 

[venx]

The point with Alina is that she is exceptional, at least among those who are eligible to go senior next season. She has outjumped everyone except Medvedeva

She did at Nationals' FS. :agree:

 

[vorravorra]

She did at Nationals' FS. :agree:

Yes, technically she outjumped her too. But no way will she be allowed to win over Medvedeva for now unless Medvedeva herself starts having problems. And to win over relatively problem-free Medvedeva next season she will at the very least have to deliver her current level of tech consistently. Hence the need to keep the puberty monster at bay.
I guess I am not very comfortable with the idea of another 15 year old skater getting a gold medal due to her childlike body. Maybe raising the age by another year would not be such a bad idea, but it is almost like you need to decide on a case-by-case basis.

 

[venx]

I guess I am not very comfortable with the idea of another 15 year old skater getting a gold medal due to her childlike body. Maybe raising the age by another year would not be such a bad idea, but it is almost like you need to decide on a case-by-case basis.

I'd rather have Zagitova as Olympic champion than Medvedeva for thousand of reasons.