2018-19 Russian Ladies' figure skating

[cohen-esque]

Shcherbakova has a good lutz edge, but in fact struggles a bit with flip

Not really, IMO. Her lutz edge is similar to Kostornaia, really- both roll over onto the flat at takeoff. (Shcherbakova’s is the better of the two, though.) I’d probably give her “!”. Whereas her flip is also dangerously flat but looks more correct to me. Going by this video.

I think she’s one of those skaters who doesn’t have a very strong edge on the Lutz or flip.

 

[Shayuki]

Kostornaya's Lutz edge is a struggle, Shcherbakova's isn't, unless you think a consistently shallow outside edge is struggling. :think:

 

[Spirals for Miles]

I thought Shcherbakova had a pretty good outside edge (no Tarakanova, but also no Kostornaya or Medvedeva) it's just the angle she takes off of makes it confusing. Interestingly, she and Zagitova use the same entry.

 

[SkySkater]

"Alina's Lutz technique is one of the few Tutberidze students with a right lutz edge" - Shelepen(she jumped 3+3+2 and 3Lz+2T in 2008 when it was not yet fashionable), Tursinbaeva, Lipnitskaya, Tsurskaya, Zagitova, Panenkova, Tarakanova, Trusova, Kostornaya, Sherbakova, Akatyeva, Erokhov, Samsonov... even Nikolay Kolesnikov 9 y.o. - all have perfect Lz. The one with detriment is in Canada now.

I have no idea about Shelplen or Tursynbaeva's technique back in 2013 when she was under Eteri however out of Eteri's female students I know more about Tsurskaya, Tarakanova, Panenkova, and Trusova all have outside edged lutzes all of the time--these skaters all also joined her around about the age of 12 if not later in cases like Tarakanova and Panenkova so one can presume that they all have their technique on the lutz from their original coach as most girls in russia will have all of their triples by the age of twelve.

Medvedeva and Sherbakova both of whom she has trained since they were younger and as a result been the dominant force in their technique both have problems with their edges with Med's flutz and whilst Sherbakova's is better it still isn't ideal at all times and Lipnitskaya if I remember correrctly was one of the few skaters who both lip and flutz and she also had most of her technique with the triples from camp Eteri.

Zagi is an exception as she did come to Eteri's with a slight flutz and without many of her triples and Eteri was able to train it out of her but I'm not sure if she even had a triple lutz at that point as i know she didn't have all of her triples and its still nowhere near as good as the girls I mentioned in the first paragraph. Kostornaia's lutz is most certainly not ideal and is flat most of the time and inside on occasion and whilst I have heard that it has improved slightly it is definitely still there and a problem though I would probably concede that this is the fault of her last coach as she was 13 when she moved to Eteri. I'm not sure about the rest of the skaters listed but as far as I am aware boys are far less likely to struggle with flutzes based of the difference in pelvis shape so there may be a correlation there.

As a result of this I would say that all of Eteri's skaters with what i would call good lutz technique had most of their jump technique formed under seperate coaches whilst the students of Eteri who struggle the most with their edges are those who are coached with Eteri who was responsible for developing their jumps so I would say that Eteri isn't very good at teaching correct lutz technique.

 

[cohen-esque]

I thought Shcherbakova had a pretty good outside edge (no Tarakanova, but also no Kostornaya or Medvedeva) it's just the angle she takes off of makes it confusing. Interestingly, she and Zagitova use the same entry.

Kostornaya's Lutz edge is a struggle, Shcherbakova's isn't, unless you think a consistently shallow outside edge is struggling. :think:

Well she starts out strong, but then the edge gets shallower, instead of deeper, and when she “snaps” her body into the jump I think she loses the edge. I had the same observation of her quad, so I don’t think it totally depends on video. So I wouldn’t call Shcherbakova’s a shallow “outside edge;” I’d say it’s perfectly flat. Kostornaia rolls over to a slight inside edge occasionally, and doesn’t hold the outside edge as long before it, though, which is why I’d say hers is worse.

I’d not say a constantly shallow outside edge is a “good Lutz edge” for any skater. But if it’s an outside edge it should be acceptable, regardless.

 

[Shayuki]

I thought Shcherbakova had a pretty good outside edge (no Tarakanova, but also no Kostornaya or Medvedeva) it's just the angle she takes off of makes it confusing. Interestingly, she and Zagitova use the same entry.

This season's it hasn't been as good as it was last season. But because of stuff like her Lutz edge being as good as it was just last season, I'd say the more shallow edge this season would have more to do with her injury recovery than it would with her innately having edge issues. I guess we'll see how it is next season - On the 4Lutz video it did look better than at any point this season to me, for what it's worth.

Well she starts out strong, but then the edge gets shallower, instead of deeper, and when she “snaps” her body into the jump I think she loses the edge. I had the same observation of her quad, so I don’t think it totally depends on video. So I wouldn’t call Shcherbakova’s a shallow “outside edge;” I’d say it’s perfectly flat.

It's not perfectly flat though, unless you actually look at when she doesn't have any weight on the skate anywhere, at which point it really doesn't matter. I've not seen a single video where it's perfectly flat where the camera angle was good enough to be sure(Remember the rule to call everything in favor of the skater when uncertain). The few videos I have with a good angle, it's always been a slight outside edge. And no one would call those !.

Take a look at this Lutz from 16-17 season, when it was very good. And that's why I'm confident she'll get that back to that point in no time. Last season, she struggled even rotating the 3Lutz fully around. That doesn't mean I'll conclude that she's going to have UR issues in the future.

 

[chopinskate]

Well she starts out strong, but then the edge gets shallower, instead of deeper, and when she “snaps” her body into the jump I think she loses the edge. I had the same observation of her quad, so I don’t think it totally depends on video.

You're right. Even about her 4Lz. She does indeed roll onto a flat when she's picking the Lz. It's the same here: https://youtu.be/SYJOzKEf73M?t=3m6s

Take a look at this Lutz from 16-17 season, when it was very good. And that's why I'm confident she'll get that back to that point in no time. Last season, she struggled even rotating the 3Lutz fully around. That doesn't mean I'll conclude that she's going to have UR issues in the future.

How's that very good? It's very close to a flat, and the only reason I'm not calling it a flat is because of the camera angle.

 

[frallik]

I have no idea about Shelplen or Tursynbaeva's technique back in 2013 when she was under Eteri however out of Eteri's female students I know more about Tsurskaya, Tarakanova, Panenkova, and Trusova all have outside edged lutzes all of the time--these skaters all also joined her around about the age of 12 if not later in cases like Tarakanova and Panenkova so one can presume that they all have their technique on the lutz from their original coach as most girls in russia will have all of their triples by the age of twelve.

Medvedeva and Sherbakova both of whom she has trained since they were younger and as a result been the dominant force in their technique both have problems with their edges with Med's flutz and whilst Sherbakova's is better it still isn't ideal at all times and Lipnitskaya if I remember correrctly was one of the few skaters who both lip and flutz and she also had most of her technique with the triples from camp Eteri.

Zagi is an exception as she did come to Eteri's with a slight flutz and without many of her triples and Eteri was able to train it out of her but I'm not sure if she even had a triple lutz at that point as i know she didn't have all of her triples. Kostornaia's lutz is most certainly not ideal and is flat most of the time and inside on occasion and whilst I have heard that it has improved slightly it is definitely still there and a problem. I'm not sure about the rest of the skaters listed but as far as I am aware boys are far less likely to struggle with flutzes based of the difference in pelvis shape so there may be a correlation there.

After original(what do'u mean?) coach Orser had a girl with 4S and 3A. Elizaveta went back to ET with 3S ONLY. It is necessary to consider the totality of different coaching successes/failures. Detailed scores of her student - https://vk.com/pages?oid=-97272391&p=%D0%9C%D0%95%D0%9D%D0%AE%20%D0%93%D0%A0%D0%A3%D0%9F%D0%9F%D0%AB

Team Tutberidze helps Russia NFT to work not only with their feet but also with their heads - http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1530470526/739e61a4/22321767.jpg

 

[cohen-esque]

This season's it hasn't been as good as it was last season. But because of stuff like her Lutz edge being as good as it was just last season, I'd say the more shallow edge this season would have more to do with her injury recovery than it would with her innately having edge issues...

...Take a look at this Lutz from 16-17 season, when it was very good. And that's why I'm confident she'll get that back to that point in no time. Last season, she struggled even rotating the 3Lutz fully around. That doesn't mean I'll conclude that she's going to have UR issues in the future.

I think you’re definitely right that this edge is better. Even here though it’s not ideal: that’s an *extremely* shallow BOE. If she works on the quad more, I’m not necessarily sure it will go as well as in the past, because I think a bit of cheat on that jump would be harder to resist, and she’ll have growth to contend with as well as recovery.

But— skaters with much worse edges than her in the past have managed to fix real flutzes. Shcherbakova’s isn’t so bad, so we shall see what she can do when she’s healthy.

​

I think Chopinskatek’s video demonstrates the flat edge better.

 

[chopinskate]

For the record, I think her going from the deep edge to the shallow BOE deserves a bit of slack, because losing control right before you pick in probably still takes more effort than just maintaining a shallow BOE through the take-off.

 

[zounger]

From the current Sambo skaters, no one has a wrong edge (not ideal technic it's a different story) except Alena when it is sometimes (!) and Evgenia with (!) or (e).

 

[SkySkater]

After original(what do'u mean?) coach Orser had a girl with 4S and 3A. Elizaveta went back to ET with 3S ONLY. It is necessary to consider the totality of different coaching successes/failures. Detailed scores of her student - https://vk.com/pages?oid=-97272391&p=%D0%9C%D0%95%D0%9D%D0%AE%20%D0%93%D0%A0%D0%A3%D0%9F%D0%9F%D0%AB

Personally I don't thing Orser coached Tursynbaeva particularly well but I think he did the best with what he had. Her coaching suffered from the fact that when she was forced to leave Eteri she had no coach for at least 6 months which would obviously lead to her technqiue regressing and she had to skate at a mall. Then once she made it to Orser he wasn't able to give her enough coaching time because the KAZ fed wasn't paying him enough and whilst IMO he should have refused to coach her and take their money if he didn't think it was enough to give her a fighting chance he didn't do that. Then he also struggled with the fact that as a result of her visa problems or whatever she spent her summers with Eteri who had a different teaching technique and priorities meaning that there wasn't a standard training method for example Eteri was pro tanos whilst Orser wanted her to work on her jump technique so she would get high GOEs for that and not her arms.

Furthermore whilst I think he did give her good skating skill and okay programs she is from a small fed who weren't able to get her high PCS and she as a skater wasn't a wow skater who demands high PCS as she is very small on the ice which whilst being good for her jumps tends to limit her in PCS.

Jumps-wise I think she had many injuries and Orser prioritised Turnsybaeva's health over her jumps which may have limited her in the long term but considering she wasn't consistently landing her jumps it wasn't a bad idea I don't think to try to simplify them as Orser does seem to prefer having programs that can be consistently landed and are not splat fests over pushing the difficulty.

All I meant by the original coach is who would have formed the majority of their jump technique because at the moment due to Eteri cherrypicking the best talent in Russia the girls joining her have not been with her since they were small and learnt the correct lutz edge with someone else.

 

[Orlov]

Can I ask a question? What is the point of these conversations about edge? To study these angles by video is very unreliable as for me. The protocols are record by judges, not forum users. And I have an opinion that judges tolerate to the technique of performing lutz for many skaters. Or, maybe, more precisely, they are not Lutz-ubers (like some users who want to attack skaters)?
I constantly see (as it seems to me) a flat edge many skaters, but i'm understand that I am amateur who sitting in front of laptop, and that I should not tell the judges who sit near the ice, have experience, qualifications and all the necessary cameras - how to do their work.

 

[chopinskate]

What is the point of these conversations about edge?

It's a sport, and believe it or not there will be comparisons and discussions about the aspects of the sport. The edge of a lutz is a discussion because it comes with a BV reduction, but it isn't called for some skaters.

To study these angles by video is very unreliable as for me.

No more unreliable than the camera angles the tech panels get.

The protocols are record by judges, not forum users.

The calls on jumps are by the tech panel. And they are constantly wrong due to insufficient camera angles, and (it is speculated) bias.

And I have an opinion that judges tolerate to the technique of performing lutz for many skaters. Or, maybe, more precisely, they are not Lutz-ubers (like some users who want to attack skaters)?

The judges are also constantly wrong about a lot of things. Inflated PCS and GOE are just examples. And no one's attacking anyone here.

 

[Shayuki]

Can I ask a question? What is the point of these conversations about edge? To study these angles by video is very unreliable as for me. The protocols are record by judges, not forum users. And I have an opinion that judges tolerate to the technique of performing lutz for many skaters. Or, maybe, more precisely, they are not Lutz-ubers (like some users who want to attack skaters)?

The point is to find flaws in the skaters who threaten one's favorites.

I just find the double standards pretty amusing. Such a big deal that someone's Lutz edge might or might not sometimes be flat. Not even incorrect edge, but flat. And not the entire time, but switching to flat right at the end(Something that doesn't even get called !). I'll still maintain that it's a slight outside, though.

After original(what do'u mean?) coach Orser had a girl with 4S and 3A. Elizaveta went back to ET with 3S ONLY. It is necessary to consider the totality of different coaching successes/failures. Detailed scores of her student - https://vk.com/pages?oid=-97272391&p=%D0%9C%D0%95%D0%9D%D0%AE%20%D0%93%D0%A0%D0%A3%D0%9F%D0%9F%D0%AB

Team Tutberidze helps Russia NFT to work not only with their feet but also with their heads - http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1530470526/739e61a4/22321767.jpg

Tursynbaeva regressed heavily under Orser, that's for sure. She became a snoozefest to watch and lost almost all her jumps. I'm looking forward to her with Eteri so much.

 

[zounger]

Personally I don't thing Orser coached Tursynbaeva particularly well but I think he did the best with what he had. Her coaching suffered from the fact that when she was forced to leave Eteri she had no coach for at least 6 months which would obviously lead to her technqiue regressing and she had to skate at a mall. Then once she made it to Orser he wasn't able to give her enough coaching time because the KAZ fed wasn't paying him enough and whilst IMO he should have refused to coach her and take their money if he didn't think it was enough to give her a fighting chance he didn't do that. Then he also struggled with the fact that as a result of her visa problems or whatever she spent her summers with Eteri who had a different teaching technique and priorities meaning that there wasn't a standard training method for example Eteri was pro tanos whilst Orser wanted her to work on her jump technique so she would get high GOEs for that and not her arms. Furthermore whilst I think he did give her good skating skill and okay programs she is from a small fed who weren't able to get her high PCS and she as a skater wasn't a wow skater who demands high PCS as she is very small on the ice which whilst being good for her jumps tends to limit her in PCS. Jumps-wise I think she had many injuries and Orser prioritised Turnsybaeva's health over her jumps which may have limited her in the long term but considering she wasn't consistently landing her jumps it wasn't a bad idea I don't think to try to simplify them as Orser does seem to prefer having programs that can be consistently landed and are not splat fests over pushing the difficulty.

All I meant by the original coach is who would have formed the majority of their jump technique because at the moment due to Eteri cherrypicking the best talent in Russia the girls joining her have not been with her since they were small and learnt the correct lutz edge with someone else.

I first watched her in the team eent when i was stuck in bed because I was stick and immediately fell in love with her short program and her skating which stood out for me amongst the rest of the competitors. I then went and googled her and found out the full story and watched as many of her programs as I was able to and finding out that she was competing like that on a broken foot was crazy for me considering her abilities.

Out of curiosity. Since you first saw Evgenia at Olympics were you a Tursunbayeva fan before and you know so much stuff about her?

 

[chopinskate]

The point is to find flaws in the skaters who threaten one's favorites.

Like your point with Trusova's quads is to deny she underrotates them? Nice way to ascribe agendas to users. Nice comeback for you when you make another unreliable tech claim, though.

And feel free to keep pretending Scherbackova's threatening someone's faves currently. She's not even out of juniors. But I'm sure we all care just that much.

 

[SkySkater]

Out of curiosity. Since you first saw Evgenia at Olympics were you a Tursunbayeva fan before and you know so much stuff about her?

So if you read that you would know that I was stuck in bed which meant that I had a lot of free time which is when I watched lots of competitions as I wanted to find skaters to root for. I found Turnsynbaeva's story quite interesting especially once I found out Zhenya was moving to Orser as Tursynbaeva did a similar thing and read through lots of interviews to try to get a feel for how Orser would deal with Zhenya because initially I was very skeptical about the move though now I am definitely pro the move because Orser is the only coach who isn't a downgrade from Eteri in my opinion. Basically to surmise I had a lot of free time and most of the stuff I referenced to is what I seen in interviews, her fanfest and none of the stuff I have said is not in the public domain though I will admit that I do as an english student read into things to draw my own conclusions and bring together fragments from different stuff to form a greater picture but I know that I don't know everything as I haven't been following skating for that long.

 

[Orlov]

No more unreliable than the camera angles the tech panels get.

Very doubtful statement, sorry. It's simple logic - you see only one camera when you are considering a jump on video of presentation. Judges can watch videos from many cameras.
But my main argument: in practice, we see that the Lutz-ubers have exaggerated requirements

The point is to find flaws in the skaters who threaten one's favorites.

I know

 

[chopinskate]

Very doubtful statement, sorry. It's simple logic - you see only one camera when you are considering a jump on video of presentation. Judges can watch videos from many cameras.

Ermmm, no. We often have better camera views in angle and resolution.

But my main argument: in practice, we see that the Lutz-ubers have exaggerated requirements

Or, you know, they care about standards. But anyway, this is hardly a conversation worth having with someone determined to not see the point of it. BTW, I could turn it around and say that you call people lutz ubers because they usually call out your favourite skaters. Quite an easy turn-around.