2018-19 Russian Ladies' figure skating

[sweetice]

Let's try to not generalize. I'm older, but I do not miss front loaded programs, telegraphed jumps or the 6.0 judging. I like the jump sequence to match the program.

if you're ... about 27-30 y.o ..... What will that tell? Youngest or oldest ?

I did say "sometimes". Obviously, it was a generalization

The question, at least to me, seem related on why you see skating, what you like of it, if you don't have practice the sport itself. Age may not mean much about that, but as we are talking about a more recent trend, age may come into play.

To me, see a lot of speedy movements in a program it's worthy if connected to the music. Sometimes that just don't happen, and some positions appear like they aren't sustained enough, to be worthy of praise, as it's something that takes away some elegance of those movements themselves.

My two cents.

 

[colormyworld240]

Don‘t agree. I love Alina so I‘m not saying this to badmouth her or anything but at the Olympics, Zhenya and Alina were pretty on par. In the individual event, I would have had Zhenya first. Had Alina skated the program she showed during the Team Event, I would have had her for the win without a doubt. It‘s not about the mistake she made on the first 3Lz. It was barely visible and she spectacularly made up for it by adding the 3Lo very late in the program. It was more that she didn‘t seem relaxed during the program and while the 3Lz-3Lo was right to the beat of the music, other things weren‘t. She seemed tense which is quite understandable. Zhenya however had an almost technically perfect skate and her performance was obviously more passionate. She should have been ahead in PCS by a bigger margin. But that’s just my opinion. Overall, I‘d say they were pretty equal in the FS ans that’s why it came down to the SP that Alina won. I have no problem with Alina‘s victory at all. I think it could have been both of them but Alina is a splendid Olympic Champion who skated tremendously well considering her age and the whole circumstances.

About the style-debate: I don‘t think it is related to age or when you started to watch skating which program style you like. I‘m very young and I started to watch skating casually around 2014. I love Yuna‘s or Caro‘s programs and their ability to hold a move and make a special moment out of it. But I also appreciate the programs Team Eteri‘s got. It‘s matter of personal taste and ultimately, no style is better than the other. It‘s just that the sport is changing and nowadays the busy programs get rewarded more.

Alina's jumps were better in the individual. She had very tilted axes on some jumps in the team, like the flips and axels, so her GOE should be more in the individual. Also, you can argue PCS all you want, but looking relaxed is not a PCS component. But even if you're scoring fairly, even if you argue Alina's PCS should be 5 or even 10 points lower, she still would have won the free. Are we forgetting Evgenia's uncalled flutz that should have been an e would automatically be many points loss, and also how all her elements (including spins! the real scandal) have higher GOE than Alina's even though Alina clearly has better elements? Even the most biased mind can see that while they're both probably overscored compared to other competitors, no way should Evgenia ever have higher GOE than Alina on anything but the salchow. That TES gap should have been WAY bigger. You can't argue unfair PCS, and ignore GOE. Even if the PCS argument makes no sense and Evgenia is definitely not Kostner in that department.

Sorry for bringing this up again, but if someone makes ridiculous "PCS" arguments without the rest of the story, you have to call them out on it.

 

[tinybluemoon]

I didn't follow Yulia that closely. Very cool she is coaching now though!

Yulia's life was crazy. Her mother was really something else - part of me hopes we never see another Daniela Lipnitskaya again and part of me hopes we do for the entertainment value she brought with her. Eteri and Daniela apparently used to get into huge screaming matches across the rink with one another. It always made me smirk in interviews about Evgenia when Eteri used to say that one of the easiest things about working with her was her mother and how she was always present but quiet. Like, yeah, I bet she enjoyed that. She probably enjoys Alina's parents living in different cities even more. It will certainly make for a good lifetime movie one day. But no, I don't think these days Eteri would put up with that these days. She doesn't have to put up with it these days. She's too big a coach, too in demand, too many talented students. She no longer needs to rely on one if that one comes with a crazy parent.

 

[neusw]

Yulia's life was crazy. Her mother was really something else - part of me hopes we never see another Daniela Lipnitskaya again and part of me hopes we do for the entertainment value she brought with her. Eteri and Daniela apparently used to get into huge screaming matches across the rink with one another. It always made me smirk in interviews about Evgenia when Eteri used to say that one of the easiest things about working with her was her mother and how she was always present but quiet. Like, yeah, I bet she enjoyed that. She probably enjoys Alina's parents living in different cities even more. It will certainly make for a good lifetime movie one day. But no, I don't think these days Eteri would put up with that these days. She doesn't have to put up with it these days. She's too big a coach, too in demand, too many talented students. She no longer needs to rely on one if that one comes with a crazy parent.

Wow that's crazy. I had no idea the situation was that bad, though Eteri has hinted at some drama in interviews. She's implied that Yulia pretty much lost all motivation because she'd achieved her mother's ultimate goal of OGM. I did read an interview with Sasha's dad where he said that he sometimes disagreed with her coaches' decisions and wanted to protect his daughter. I'd like to see Eteri get into a screaming match with him...

 

[madison]

You know what would be an interesting experiment (but it would never work soo..) if you could have someone skate the exact same performance (same jumps and mistakes) in a ugly dress, a neutral dress and a really beautiful dress and see if it had any effect on the PCS marks. I bet it does.

I liked Alina's dresses this weekend. I liked her tutus last year (the swan lake one was the better of the two to me). Her competition dresses have been very nice so far. I hope Evgenia gets new dresses for the short and long. Maybe the nice Russian lady who made her Anna Karenina dresses can help out (Olga?)

Ohh, yes.... very good point. I am also sure that the dresses have an impact on PCS[emoji3]

 

[madison]

I can't believe people are STILL trying to rehash this. Evgenia DID get awarded for her Olympics performance. She scored much higher than she was scored at Euros, reflecting both the technical improvement and performance improvement at Olys. In order for her to have scored 160 with her tech content, judges would've had to lose their minds with GOE like they did at Japan Open, and that kind of scoring simply is not realistic. People who keep claiming that she could've/should've scored 160 at the Olympics simply because she's gotten that score once before in an exhibition-level "competition" is ridiculous. The score she received for the Oly FS is already the realistic maximum that a program with that tech content can receive (unless you're Kostner).

I will continue to defend that any perceived excess in Alina's PCS scoring was more than sufficiently compensated for by the fact that she got lower GOE for almost every single element than Evgenia. If you watch the comparison videos of their programs side by side, we can spend another 6 months arguing Alina should've gotten higher GOE for every single element.

In the end, you can do your absolute best and it simply won't be enough, and that's life.

Exactly that is the point. That Alina was massively overscored in PCS.

 

[colormyworld240]

Yulia's life was crazy. Her mother was really something else - part of me hopes we never see another Daniela Lipnitskaya again and part of me hopes we do for the entertainment value she brought with her. Eteri and Daniela apparently used to get into huge screaming matches across the rink with one another. It always made me smirk in interviews about Evgenia when Eteri used to say that one of the easiest things about working with her was her mother and how she was always present but quiet. Like, yeah, I bet she enjoyed that. She probably enjoys Alina's parents living in different cities even more. It will certainly make for a good lifetime movie one day. But no, I don't think these days Eteri would put up with that these days. She doesn't have to put up with it these days. She's too big a coach, too in demand, too many talented students. She no longer needs to rely on one if that one comes with a crazy parent.

It was already made into a lifetime TV show. It's called Dance Moms

 

[neusw]

Exactly that is the point. That Alina was massively overscored in PCS.

And Zhenya was also massively overscored in GOE relative to Alina. You do not get to have one half of the equation without the other. That is my point.

In a vacuum with perfectly neutral scoring who wins? Who knows. Maybe it's even Osmond. Why the f is this still interesting to argue about. Perfectly neutral scoring has never existed and never will. The system is what it is and everyone who plays the game knows what the biases are.

 

[madison]

And Zhenya was also massively overscored in GOE relative to Alina. You do not get to have one half of the equation without the other. That is my point.

In a vacuum with perfectly neutral scoring who wins? Who knows. Maybe it's even Osmond. Why the f is this still interesting to argue about. Perfectly neutral scoring has never existed and never will. The system is what it is and everyone who plays the game knows what the biases are.

Except the lutz she was not massively overscored in GOE.

 

[Vandevska]

Ah I finally saw the performances this weekend. Hope Alëna sorts out whatever issues there might be (sickness or tiredness or something), but I want to congratulate her on getting to JGPF!
I kinda got used to Alina's sp so it was less cringe-worthy, but oh my, the long program.....
She improved in some of her jumps, she has other beautiful elements, and even despite the puberty issues she seems to be in top form. She's really great technically, just a lot of improvement compared to last season's start. And because of that I just can't justify her getting that sh**ty program this year. It was hard for me to finish watching. I just, I can't explain in what way it's bad for me.

On another note: I'm team programs-full-of-transitions all the way probably because I started watching recently, but the more I watch and learn, the more I dislike some busy programs for having movements without any sense.

 

[plushyfan]

I thought the same thing today. But does Eteri have time for more students? Would have to be another Russian coach. I actually watched a video about an American ballet dancer who moved to Russia to train under the Bolshoi Ballet. She was the first I think. In one of the Skating Lesson episodes their guest coach felt that Americans were not progressing as much in figure skating because the parents get too involved and switch coaches too hastily. Can you imagine a parent getting in Eteri's business?! LOL I don't thinks so!

Yes! I followed her story, Joy Womack..Inspiring story and became a very good dancer after the examens she remained in Russia in the Bolshoi!

I agree Eteri's method doesn't work with American children or American environment..

 

[hippomoomin]

Ah I finally saw the performances this weekend. Hope Alëna sorts out whatever issues there might be (sickness or tiredness or something), but I want to congratulate her on getting to JGPF!

I was wondering whether anyone has some insight on Alena's situation, illness, injury, family emergency...

 

[Fluture]

Alina's jumps were better in the individual. She had very tilted axes on some jumps in the team, like the flips and axels, so her GOE should be more in the individual. Also, you can argue PCS all you want, but looking relaxed is not a PCS component. But even if you're scoring fairly, even if you argue Alina's PCS should be 5 or even 10 points lower, she still would have won the free. Are we forgetting Evgenia's uncalled flutz that should have been an e would automatically be many points loss, and also how all her elements (including spins! the real scandal) have higher GOE than Alina's even though Alina clearly has better elements? Even the most biased mind can see that while they're both probably overscored compared to other competitors, no way should Evgenia ever have higher GOE than Alina on anything but the salchow. That TES gap should have been WAY bigger. You can't argue unfair PCS, and ignore GOE. Even if the PCS argument makes no sense and Evgenia is definitely not Kostner in that department.

Sorry for bringing this up again, but if someone makes ridiculous "PCS" arguments without the rest of the story, you have to call them out on it.

I think I stated very clearly in my post that I thought Alina and Zhenya were pretty equal in the FS (hence why they got the exact same number of points) but I personally would have had Zhenya first. What exactly do you need to call me out for? For having an opinion? I‘ve said times and again that I‘m Alina‘s fan and think she is a wonderful Olympic Champion and deserves her win. Just because I think it was close and that it could have been either of them? I really don‘t like this discussion but I was just reacting to a post stating that Alina should have been a lot higher in the FS than she already was, which I politely disagree with. I think her GOEs should have been higher, especially on spins because she’s excellent at them. But her PCS also were too high so it‘s kind of negligent, her score was fine the way it was. I wasn‘t saying or even intending to say that Alina doesn‘t deserve her win because I simply do not think this way. It was close but she won fair and square. She is the Olympic Champion and nothing should nor will change this. So please don‘t try to twist my words in this direction, thank you.

 

[Giver]

Some people already claimed that I am Alena's hater but I really can't understand what 3A is she talking about if she can't jump even 2A properly. And NO it wasn't "accidental mistake", because she popped axel in warm-up too (AFAIK not even once).

 

[chopinskate]

I'd forgotten that the Olympics were part of the 2018-19 season for the Russian Ladies.

This is a good commentary for this thread: https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

 

[atsumiri]

Some people already claimed that I am Alena's hater but I really can't understand what 3A is she talking about if she can't jump even 2A properly. And NO it wasn't "accidental mistake", because she popped axel in warm-up too (AFAIK not even once).

in this case I advise you to buy a glasses.
And you can also learn what a"proper 2a" is.
Before you write such .... delusions.

 

[Giver]

in this case I advise you to buy a glasses.
And you can also learn what a"proper 2a" is.
Before you write such .... delusions.

Proper 2A is different from 1A<<. And Alena jumps 1A<< a little too often to think that it is not a systematic problem. Pop in SP and one or two pops (I can't remember) in FS warm-up. Do you really think that it is normal?

 

[Fluture]

Some people already claimed that I am Alena's hater but I really can't understand what 3A is she talking about if she can't jump even 2A properly. And NO it wasn't "accidental mistake", because she popped axel in warm-up too (AFAIK not even once).

So every skater who pops a jump more than once can‘t jump it properly? That‘s interesting because Alina (just the first example that I could think of) popped her 3Lz at the test skates and at the exhibition gala. That’s already more than once. Would you say she can‘t jump 3Lz? I don‘t think so. Because she clearly showed VERY OFTEN that she is absolutely able to do it. Just like Alena with her wonderful 2A. She was sick, she wasn‘t physically fine thus she made mistakes. Happens to everyone.

 

[atsumiri]

Proper 2A is different from 1A<<. And Alena jumps 1A<< a little too often to think that it is not a systematic problem. Pop in SP and one or two pops (I can't remember) in FS warm-up. Do you really think that it is normal?

:shocked:
yes. I DO think it's Normal.
She is not a robot. She was not feel well. She was ill. You can see it clearly even without glasses.
And her 2a is one of the best in the ladies field. It's a proper and perfect 2a.

so..... every single skater who popped the jump at some point of their career should go to the corner and cry.. poor Yuzuru.... who doesn't have a "proper" Axel...

 

[Giver]

So every skater who pops a jump more than once can‘t jump it properly? That‘s interesting because Alina (just the first example that I could think of) popped her 3Lz at the test skates and at the exhibition gala. That’s already more than once. Would you say she can‘t jump 3Lz? I don‘t think so. Because she clearly showed VERY OFTEN that she is absolutely able to do it. Just like Alena with her wonderful 2A. She was sick, she wasn‘t physically fine thus she made mistakes. Happens to everyone.

Is she really sick? Because she wasn't talking about sickness in her interview. She said that it was accidental mistake. Mistake that repeated during next warm-up.