2018-19 Russian Ladies' figure skating

[WhiteProphet]

Actually, fed is made of people, and there are people influential with fed or who have connections with fed. I mean, folks like TAT, Mishin, Buyanova have more weight with fed than Eteri.

Outside the medals, there is a $$$ issue. Elite skaters get coached for free in Russia, and coaches are paid by government. But also, elite skaters give their coaches are fraction of their prize money. So for example, when an Eteri student medals, for fed, it is just a medal, but for Eteri, it is medal + $$$.
Now, see where we are going, the spots for most international events are limited. The podium places too. So the fact that Eteri's students are successful means not only that Eteri makes more money, but also that other coaches make less money. Look at GPF, for example - if Alina was not there, Sotskova would have won gold. Look at Euro spots - if it was not for Eteri students, someone like Radionova or Tuktamysheva could have made it, which means prize money for the coach.
Now see that those coaches are connected to fed and much more influential than Eteri is. So i suppose this is the reason why fed is very unlikely give Eteri girls 3 spots for Worlds / Euros.

Fed is made of people, and they pursue their own interests and agendas, not just an abstract medal count. I mean, stuff like sending Konstantinova to Worlds is a good example how shady fed interests eclipse the interest in more medals.

And i totally see how rusfed may want Eteri to stay as a "junior" coach, so the influential folks can snatch her students and have them winning medals for them, not for Eteri.

I see, somehow I failed to understand the actual hierarchy, that's very interesting, thank you!

 

[yoloaxel]

I wonder where all those commentators like "Medvedeva earned enough to afford trainings in Canada easily, so she doesn't need fed support"?
Not enough it seems.

I don't think she needs it, but it definitely wouldn't hurt her to be supported by the fed. I don't see why they shouldn't be, she is the skater who won them the most medals in the past 3 seasons and she has never been off the podium once. As long as she provides them with a work plan, which I'm sure she has, she should be fine!

 

[kwanatic]

Whether you agree with TAT or not, I don't see why she shouldn't express her opinion. She likes Orser? Good. Orser is the best coach for men at the moment. Eteri is the best coach for ladies - Evgenia training at TCC will be the ultimate test for Orser, I guess. TAT can say whatever she wants, in the end it will be the results that will speak :agree2:

I think the main thing here is that Eteri is proven when it comes to teaching younger girls...not women. With the exception of Evgenia, none of her elite skaters have successfully competed beyond the age of 17. The rest were sidelined with injuries, technique issues, etc. and fell off before ever making it into that "woman" age bracket (18+). In that sense, Eteri is untested. She has so many amazing skaters coming up through the ranks, she ends up shifting her attention to the up and coming talent rather than trying to fix/work through the kinks of her older talent. Without help they fall off and the rest is history...

Brian is the gatekeeper for the men, that's true...but he also coached Yuna Kim to world and Olympic titles when she was 19/20 years old. He's proven that he can work with older skaters (men and women) which might have been part of the allure for Evgenia. She's committing herself to staying in for another 4 years which means she'll be 22 years old at the next Olympics. She needs someone who can guide her through that phase of her career and, as of now, Brian has a road map for that. Eteri doesn't.

But I definitely agree: the results will speak for themselves. Only time will tell if going to Brian was the right move. Granted I don't think staying with Eteri is an option either so...

 

[yoloaxel]

I think the main thing here is that Eteri is proven when it comes to teaching younger girls...not women. With the exception of Evgenia, none of her elite skaters have successfully competed beyond the age of 17. The rest were sidelined with injuries, technique issues, etc. and fell off before ever making it into that "woman" age bracket (18+). In that sense, Eteri is untested. She has so many amazing skaters coming up through the ranks, she ends up shifting her attention to the up and coming talent rather than trying to fix/work through the kinks of her older talent. Without help they fall off and the rest is history...

Brian is the gatekeeper for the men, that's true...but he also coached Yuna Kim to world and Olympic titles when she was 19/20 years old. He's proven that he can work with older skaters (men and women) which might have been part of the allure for Evgenia. She's committing herself to staying in for another 4 years which means she'll be 22 years old at the next Olympics. She needs someone who can guide her through that phase of her career and, as of now, Brian has a road map for that. Eteri doesn't.

Oh I agree, I prefer Brian to Eteri, and I think he's great at managing champions. His current ladies, tbh, do not come close to any of the Eteri girls, but I'm sure he'll do a splendid job with Zhenya. I was answering to those who were criticizing TAT for picking sides and going against Eteri I think TAT should say whatever she wants, the truth will lie in the results and in the future

 

[kwanatic]

Oh I agree, I prefer Brian to Eteri, and I think he's great at managing champions. His current ladies, tbh, do not come close to any of the Eteri girls, but I'm sure he'll do a splendid job with Zhenya. I was answering to those who were criticizing TAT for picking sides and going against Eteri I think TAT should say whatever she wants, the truth will lie in the results and in the future

That's true. I don't think any of Brian's "from the ground up" skaters are factors. He's more of a "take your career to the next step" kind of coach. The skaters who come to him are already on the scene but are trying to break through. The exception to that was Yuna who was a top skater when she came to him; he just made her more consistent which elevated her even higher. But that's what Brian did for Yuzu and Javi. Prior to Brian they were both in that 2nd/3rd tier of skaters terms of placements. After the switch they started landing on podiums consistently. He even elevated Gabby Daleman to better finishes and a world medal so that is a success even though it's on a smaller scale. She was battling injuries this season so we'll have to see if she can put herself back in the mix next season. It will be interesting to see what he can do with Evgenia.

I don't understand all of the hate for Evgenia and people who defend her for acting in the best interest of maintaining her career. Doesn't make any sense to me. :noshake:

 

[moriel]

I don't think she needs it, but it definitely wouldn't hurt her to be supported by the fed. I don't see why they shouldn't be, she is the skater who won them the most medals in the past 3 seasons and she has never been off the podium once. As long as she provides them with a work plan, which I'm sure she has, she should be fine!

Well, you see I am a russian.
My grandmother currently lives in russia. She spent 45 years of her life, since she was 15, working on a factory. For all this hard work, she receives a pension of USD250.

Now, a couple of years ago, Orser stated that his wage used to be USD110. This probably raised by now. So let me get it straight, my grandma's monthly pension wouldn't pay 2 hours of Orser's time. Training in Russia is much cheaper than that, since coaches receive a salary (which is compatible with russian reality). There are many great coaches in Russia, and also great choreographers and so on.
So, as a Russian, I dont want my country to pay that much money to some foreign specialist for something Medvedeva could get in Russia as well. Orser is not like the only possibility. The money paid to Orser will not generate jobs in Russia, and will not be even spent in Russia.

Simply like that, we don't have that much money. I personally think that fed paying for Medvedeva is a bad investment and waste of $$$ which could be used to support Russian people instead. The medals she MAY win are not worth that much.


So like, i'm fine with Evgenia doing whatever she thinks is best for her career. I am not fine with Russia paying for whatever she thinks is best for her career, and not for what is best for Russia (which is clearly investing money locally)

 

[Shayuki]

Well, you see I am a russian.
My grandmother currently lives in russia. She spent 45 years of her life, since she was 15, working on a factory. For all this hard work, she receives a pension of USD250.

Now, a couple of years ago, Orser stated that his wage used to be USD110. This probably raised by now. So let me get it straight, my grandma's monthly pension wouldn't pay 2 hours of Orser's time. Training in Russia is much cheaper than that, since coaches receive a salary (which is compatible with russian reality). There are many great coaches in Russia, and also great choreographers and so on.
So, as a Russian, I dont want my country to pay that much money to some foreign specialist for something Medvedeva could get in Russia as well. Orser is not like the only possibility. The money paid to Orser will not generate jobs in Russia, and will not be even spent in Russia.

Simply like that, we don't have that much money. I personally think that fed paying for Medvedeva is a bad investment and waste of $$$ which could be used to support Russian people instead. The medals she MAY win are not worth that much.


So like, i'm fine with Evgenia doing whatever she thinks is best for her career. I am not fine with Russia paying for whatever she thinks is best for her career, and not for what is best for Russia (which is clearly investing money locally)

And the other thing is that Medvedeva definitely can afford it. She earned hundreds of thousands for the Olympic silver alone, and the endorsements should make paying for it very possible. I agree that it's a significant and unnecessary waste of resources for the Russian fed and it's doubtful whether it'll actually be for any gain. She might even regress, in which case it's the tax payers' money down the drain.

 

[yoloaxel]

I understand cultural differences play a big part here, so I won’t judge anyone’s opinion. My personal view is that a fed that would point blank refuse to contribute to their most successful representative’s training situation doesn’t make sense to me. And I doubt that RusFed don’t have enough money to give some to her and some to developing athletes. If anything, she has more than earned her fair share *

 

[kwanatic]

And the other thing is that Medvedeva definitely can afford it. She earned hundreds of thousands for the Olympic silver alone, and the endorsements should make paying for it very possible. I agree that it's a significant and unnecessary waste of resources for the Russian fed and it's doubtful whether it'll actually be for any gain. She might even regress, in which case it's the tax payers' money down the drain.

But isn't that the case for the majority of skaters receiving funding? Even though Russia has a good number of skaters in the women's field who make it to the elite level, there are more who don't make it. And that's not counting the men, pairs and ice dance who don't win medals. Is it a waste of tax payers' money for them? Evgenia's never missed a podium. Until evidence to the contrary is presented, it seems to me she's a safer investment than the majority of people who receive funding.

 

[ramed]

Well, you see I am a russian.
My grandmother currently lives in russia. She spent 45 years of her life, since she was 15, working on a factory. For all this hard work, she receives a pension of USD250.

Now, a couple of years ago, Orser stated that his wage used to be USD110. This probably raised by now. So let me get it straight, my grandma's monthly pension wouldn't pay 2 hours of Orser's time. Training in Russia is much cheaper than that, since coaches receive a salary (which is compatible with russian reality). There are many great coaches in Russia, and also great choreographers and so on.
So, as a Russian, I dont want my country to pay that much money to some foreign specialist for something Medvedeva could get in Russia as well. Orser is not like the only possibility. The money paid to Orser will not generate jobs in Russia, and will not be even spent in Russia.

Simply like that, we don't have that much money. I personally think that fed paying for Medvedeva is a bad investment and waste of $$$ which could be used to support Russian people instead. The medals she MAY win are not worth that much.


So like, i'm fine with Evgenia doing whatever she thinks is best for her career. I am not fine with Russia paying for whatever she thinks is best for her career, and not for what is best for Russia (which is clearly investing money locally)

I'll put it even simpler: rusfed should invest in local coaching first and foremost. But they have even more important task today: to defend Russia's position in ISU against those feds who are now desperately wishing to redistribute the prize pool in their own favor. Yes, I'm talking about the proposal to increase the minimum age for seniors. Then the last firm medal chances for Russia will be gone, the last successful coaching school in Russia will be killed and the young Russian talents who were so inspired by recent successes of Russian ladies will be totally demoralized and lose faith in this sport - quite fairly on their part. However, that'll be a pyrric victory for those other feds, because they will kill the interest of the public to FS entirely. It was already quite low until recent times, when the new breed of Russian ladies revived that interest because of one simple reason: they are pushing the boundaries. Goodbye ultra-complex programs, hello the new boring face of FS. Goodbye Kostornaya, Trusova and other young guns. All hail Miss Mediocrity.

 

[vorravorra]

I'll put it even simpler: rusfed should invest in local coaching first and foremost. But they have even more important task today: to defend Russia's position in ISU against those feds who are now desperately wishing to redistribute the prize pool in their own favor. Yes, I'm talking about the proposal to increase the minimum age for seniors. Then the last firm medal chances for Russia will be gone, the last successful coaching school in Russia will be killed and the young Russian talents who were so inspired by recent successes of Russian ladies will be totally demoralized and lose faith in this sport - quite fairly on their part. However, that'll be a pyrric victory for those other feds, because they will kill the interest of the public to FS entirely. It was already quite low until recent times, when the new breed of Russian ladies revived that interest because of one simple reason: they are pushing the boundaries. Goodbye ultra-complex programs, hello the new boring face of FS. Goodbye Kostornaya, Trusova and other young guns. All hail Miss Mediocrity.

Do you seriously think Eteri is incapable of creating Champions aged 17+? Is Medvedeva a collective hallucination? And Trusova, Kostornaya and Shcherbakova are going to make it to the Olympics by the currently proposed rules, you know.

 

[vorravorra]

Even Lakernik isn't panicking, what is this "Ladies skating is going back to the Dark Ages of 2-2! It's an anti-Russian conspiracy!!!!111 :gaah:"? Eteri is so inflexible she can't adjust? She said herself she would adjust to whatever changes are introduced. The age isn't raised to 25, after all.

 

[charlotte14]

Well, you see I am a russian.
My grandmother currently lives in russia. She spent 45 years of her life, since she was 15, working on a factory. For all this hard work, she receives a pension of USD250.

Now, a couple of years ago, Orser stated that his wage used to be USD110. This probably raised by now. So let me get it straight, my grandma's monthly pension wouldn't pay 2 hours of Orser's time. Training in Russia is much cheaper than that, since coaches receive a salary (which is compatible with russian reality). There are many great coaches in Russia, and also great choreographers and so on.
So, as a Russian, I dont want my country to pay that much money to some foreign specialist for something Medvedeva could get in Russia as well. Orser is not like the only possibility. The money paid to Orser will not generate jobs in Russia, and will not be even spent in Russia.

Simply like that, we don't have that much money. I personally think that fed paying for Medvedeva is a bad investment and waste of $$$ which could be used to support Russian people instead. The medals she MAY win are not worth that much.


So like, i'm fine with Evgenia doing whatever she thinks is best for her career. I am not fine with Russia paying for whatever she thinks is best for her career, and not for what is best for Russia (which is clearly investing money locally)

You don’t even know of much they will pay for Orser even if they pay. Lol. If they pay Orser the same amount they pay Russian coaches, and the rest Med has to pay for herself?
They don’t even say anything in details. If Med remains in the national team and gets good results, of course she deserves her amount of funding, however small it might be.

 

[moriel]

You don’t even know of much they will pay for Orser even if they pay. Lol. If they pay Orser the same amount they pay Russian coaches, and the rest Med has to pay for herself?
They don’t even say anything in details. If Med remains in the national team and gets good results, of course she deserves her amount of funding, however small it might be.

I simply don't care about the amounts. You see, I don't want them to spend russian tax money outside russia.
I want the fed to fund a local rink, which will employ local people. If they need to hire a foreign specialist, they can get the said specialist to move to russia, as they do with football coaches sometimes, for example. You know, so you pay the salary of the coach, and the coach then spends this money in russian stores and so on.

 

[charlotte14]

I simply don't care about the amounts. You see, I don't want them to spend russian tax money outside russia.
I want the fed to fund a local rink, which will employ local people. If they need to hire a foreign specialist, they can get the said specialist to move to russia, as they do with football coaches sometimes, for example. You know, so you pay the salary of the coach, and the coach then spends this money in russian stores and so on.

Sorry I don’t get this logic. All Skaters in the national team deserve their funding. Where they invest the funding is their own issue. Their job is to compete well and get the medals. And that’s the main point. If Russian fed gives Med the same amount of funding she is getting now it’s fair. If that funding isn’t enough for Med to pay Orser, it’s not Russian’s fed issue. She has to pay the rest by herself and it seems she knows that very well. Just because she has chosen to practice outside of the country it doesn’t mean she should not get the same funding of a legit national team member.

 

[moriel]

But isn't that the case for the majority of skaters receiving funding? Even though Russia has a good number of skaters in the women's field who make it to the elite level, there are more who don't make it. And that's not counting the men, pairs and ice dance who don't win medals. Is it a waste of tax payers' money for them? Evgenia's never missed a podium. Until evidence to the contrary is presented, it seems to me she's a safer investment than the majority of people who receive funding.

Well, you see a skater receives funding while training in russia. This money is spent on russian stuff. You know, so the skater for example buys food produced by a local farm, for example. In a local store that employs local people. The rink employees are local too, and so on.
So while this money does not produce medals, it is still used to support the russian business and people, on a very small scale.

So if you spent an amount X for the skater to train in russia, most of this money will be paid to russian people and for russian products also, not just on the possible medals the skater will win.
Money spent outside the country is just possible medals.

 

[vorravorra]

Well, you see a skater receives funding while training in russia. This money is spent on russian stuff. You know, so the skater for example buys food produced by a local farm, for example. In a local store that employs local people. The rink employees are local too, and so on.
So while this money does not produce medals, it is still used to support the russian business and people, on a very small scale.

So if you spent an amount X for the skater to train in russia, most of this money will be paid to russian people and for russian products also, not just on the possible medals the skater will win.
Money spent outside the country is just possible medals.

So essentially no Russian skater should ever train outside Russia?

 

[charlotte14]

So essentially no Russian skater should ever train outside Russia?

I know right, even the Chinese let their skaters go abroad for a while. Look at their pairs and Boyang. The kind of close mindset like this won’t do well for the athletes.

 

[moriel]

So essentially no Russian skater should ever train outside Russia?

In my oppinion, they are totally free to do it, with their own personal money. I don't want government to fund it.

I know right, even the Chinese let their skaters go abroad for a while. Look at their pairs and Boyang. The kind of close mindset like this won’t do well for the athletes.

Well you see, I really dont want government pay USD110/hr to some foreign dude while my grandma earns USD250 a month.
Just repeating, for the 10th time or so. Athletes are fine to go wherever they want, just not with government money. RUssian government has no money to pay Orser $110/hr, period.
If Medvedeva can afford Orser, sure, she can train with him. If she cannot, well, we not always can afford the stuff we want, thats life.

 

[Dmitryfromsiberia]

I understand cultural differences play a big part here, so I won’t judge anyone’s opinion. My personal view is that a fed that would point blank refuse to contribute to their most successful representative’s training situation doesn’t make sense to me. And I doubt that RusFed don’t have enough money to give some to her and some to developing athletes. If anything, she has more than earned her fair share *

I am from Russia, and I agree with your opinion.