2018-19 Russian Ladies' figure skating

[Spirals for Miles]

I remember that for the 2016/18 season, the Russians were sending 3 ladies to some JGPs. This past season however, only 2 Russian girls appeared at any one Grand Prix. Why was that? Grand Prixs at home can send 3 girls? A new rule so that one country can’t sweep the medals? Just curious.

it's a home country advantage --> if you host a JGP, you get 3 spots for each discipline
so in 2016, Russia hosted in Saransk so they sent Tsurskaya, Nugumanova, and Konstantinova

that's why I joke that Russia should host all the JGPs

also, helena b: please do make more vids!!

 

[Shayuki]

Look at Tuktamysheva's jumps and then look at Medvedevas, Zagitovas, etc. (any Prerotator) Jumps - subconciously, you will feel that Liza's Jumps are better to watch. Because they are smoother, have delayed rotation and are therefore more elegant and more vigorous/stronger!! I always recognize the prerotated Jumps, even without slow mo etc, because they look far superior and more laboured than actual technically perfect Jumps Imo. :agree:

I don't question that you find Tuktamysheva's jumps better to watch than Zagitova's or Medvedeva's. But I DO question that the reason is the pre-rotation! For a very obvious example, let's take:

Alexandra Trusova's SP 3Lutz

Elizaveta Berestovskaya's SP 3Lutz

Here, you'll note that Trusova pre-rotates by a huge amount(180 degrees). On the other hand, Berestovskaya has just about the most perfect Lutz technique I've ever seen out of a Russian lady. She doesn't pre-rotate in the slightest, not the tiniest bit(as close to 0 degrees of pre-rotation I've seen anyone get). But Trusova's jump is massive, while Berestovskaya's is tiny. In a situation like this, do you still think that Berestovskaya's perfectly non- pre-rotated Lutz is better to watch? Or is the reason behind Tuktamysheva's Lutz being better to watch something completely different altogether? Notable that Berestovskaya's technique is also better than Tuktamysheva's on her Lutz.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Can someone confirm...

When Gubanova went to CSKA her old coach Angelina Turenko picked up Sima and Liza Nugumanova? FWIW: Serafima posts the happiest daily pics and stories I’ve ever seen from her. Not sure if it will translate to the ice or not but I see she’s already gone to Italy and worked with Benoit Richaud. I’m totally curious to see what Sima does with with Anastasia’s lyrical approach...if in fact that’s what we get.

I have no idea what to expect out of Liza


Haven’t heard who’s working with Anastasia for choreo this season or seen any hints of training yet :curse:

 

[alvina9894]

Exactly! And I don‘t get all this fuss about pre-rotating anyway. I mean, you only see if a skater pre-rotates if you look very, very closely and that‘s only if you have some knowledge about figure skating. The casual viewer? In no way is he or she going to get this right. The rules are already confusing, no need to make them even more so.

Prerotation is actually pretty easy to spot. Just spot any toe-pick jumps that ends up as a half/whole-blade "step jump" with the ankle awkwardly twisted at takeoff.
Casual viewers aren't going to spot URs and edge problems either, so why bother picking on them? My friends who don't watch figure skating once told me, in his eyes a programme consists of "rotating in air", "rotating upright" and "rotating when squatting".

 

[Shayuki]

The difference is that it's not wrong or against the rules to pre-rotate the allowed amount. Sort of like how it's not wrong or against the rules to UR up to 90 degrees.

 

[serty]

Prerotation is actually pretty easy to spot. Just spot any toe-pick jumps that ends up as a half/whole-blade "step jump" with the ankle awkwardly twisted at takeoff.
Casual viewers aren't going to spot URs and edge problems either, so why bother picking on them? My friends who don't watch figure skating once told me, in his eyes a programme consists of "rotating in air", "rotating upright" and "rotating when squatting".

So we should base our sport on a casual viewer who has basically no understanding of what he/she is watching.

I don't think it's a very healthy way to propel the sport.

 

[hippomoomin]

Didn't she announce not long ago she will take a break from skating?
By the way, I think whoever goes to CSKA in the past few years are smart and ambitious.

Can someone confirm...

When Gubanova went to CSKA her old coach Angelina Turenko picked up Sima and Liza Nugumanova? FWIW: Serafima posts the happiest daily pics and stories I’ve ever seen from her. Not sure if it will translate to the ice or not but I see she’s already gone to Italy and worked with Benoit Richaud. I’m totally curious to see what Sima does with with Anastasia’s lyrical approach...if in fact that’s what we get.

I have no idea what to expect out of Liza


Haven’t heard who’s working with Anastasia for choreo this season or seen any hints of training yet :curse:

 

[alvina9894]

So we should base our sport on a casual viewer who has basically no understanding of what he/she is watching.

I don't think it's a very healthy way to propel the sport.

Exactly my point. Please refer to the post I quoted.

 

[colormyworld240]

Judging by your logic it was impossible to win nationals for Sotnikova in 2008/2009 or to get 2nd place for Radionova in 2012/2013. Which wasn't the case I agree that russian judges are very reputation-dependant and you definitely have a point - but do not forget that Eteri's juniors will have quite strong reputation at that time too - even if they got it only by junior-level events. Trusova is world-famous already for her hystorical achievements, Kostornaia got 3rd place last year.. they just can't give them PCS lower than they getting regularly at least - and TES - it's hard to oppose quads anyway ) All is possible of course but what I mean - situation will be different already in next season. Russia wouldn't get anything from downplaying her own genius quadjumpers achievements while it can gain much fame when advertising them to the world.

P.S.: someone MUST make video preview for RusNat 2019 (as it was done for 2017 one)! With QUADS! Just imagining that preview giving me goosebumps - what EPIC it would be! :hpull: I can't wait already! :hap93:

Sotnikova and Radionova was at a different time. The competition isn't like what it is right now. They don't give juniors less PCS, they give others higher PCS. Look at Konstantinova. Had she landed a combo in the SP, she would have scored probably enough to take the gold medal. And she was competing against Trusova and Kostornaia, who just went 1-2 and JGPF. No BV difference is enough to make up GOE and PCS different, especially for juniors who automatically get lower PCS than seniors. And that's what I mean. Kostornaia got 3rd place last year, with 2 clean skates and beautiful skating. Alina fell, Sotskova fell and both placed much higher, score wise. Favoritism has been seen even just in seniors, like Masha vs. Anna, Buyanova anyone vs. everyone else. It's more enhanced when the others are juniors, theres more room to underscore them relatively. I think as long as Alina or Zhenya are clean next year, there is no way a junior will be national champion even with 4Lz, 4S, 4T. I mean I think they'd certainly deserve it, I just don't see it happening.

 

[colormyworld240]

And honestly... Trusova got 92.35 TES for her FS at junior worlds, while Alina got "only" 81.62 at Olympics. That gotta be some massive PCs gap.

Exactly. It's huge. 153 with 92 TES and 157 with 82 TES. That's without national bias. The TES won't be able to overcome that gap, not while one is junior and the other is senior.

 

[colormyworld240]

Actually, even if this was a triple it would be better than any Lutz any of the Olympic podium skaters were performing. Better edge, better rotated, by far the prettiest take off and aerial rotation.

Trusova and Zagitova having a massive PCS gap is one thing. But Anna Shcherbakova has far, far, far greater PCS potential than Trusova.

It's not the potential that matters, this isn't TES (mostly BV part). It's whether or not they'll be scored to reflect the potential difference, and I think not. Kostornaia and Trusova only had a 1 point PCS gap in FS. And junior PCS seems to have a hard cap at 62 internationally and 68 nationally, regardless of what the skating shows.

 

[Shayuki]

It's not the potential that matters, this isn't TES (mostly BV part). It's whether or not they'll be scored to reflect the potential difference, and I think not. Kostornaia and Trusova only had a 1 point PCS gap in FS. And junior PCS seems to have a hard cap at 62 internationally and 68 nationally, regardless of what the skating shows.

Hmmm... Kostornaia is one thing, Shcherbakova is another. For instance, at the Russia Cup final where Shcherbakova had a clean skate and Trusova's mistake was a fall on the 4T(landing a clean 4S), Shcherbakova scored 63.68 and Trusova 62.40 in PCS. Yes, it's just slightly more than one point of a difference, but you have to realize... Trusova had all the international fame and momentum of the season. She had won the junior grand prix final with record-breaking scores. And Shcherbakova? She has much more room for improvement PCS-wise than Trusova does, from that skate onward. For instance, if she gets some international exposure... That should in itself have a very significant effect. Remember that before her injury, Shcherbakova for instance at FFKK outscored Trusova in PCS by over 6 points.

Furthermore... Would Shcherbakova actually have less TES potential than Trusova?

 

[dansams]

Shcherbakova for instance at FFKK outscored Trusova in PCS by over 6 points.

I don't think it's realistic to expect Anna to outscore Sasha in PCS by anything close to that amount in the future. The current system simply does not allow for that big a gap among skaters of a similar caliber. This is the reason why everyone is so TES focused right now. And whatever Sasha lacks in artistry/performance, she can make up in speed/ice coverage/SS.

First things first, Anna will need to improve her consistency after this disappointing season. (due to injury) That's the only way to up her scores in the judges' eyes.

 

[Shayuki]

Hmm... :think:

I think there's quite a difference in the skating skill potential as well. For instance, last season Trusova was way behind Shcherbakova in that regard. I expect Shcherbakova to quickly catch up if she's able to have a good and healthy off season. In fact, she already showed some serious improvement in some of these aspects during this season, as "disappointing" as it was(I wouldn't use that word...). I would say that international exposure is also very important. Consistency is one thing but being dull and boring in spite of being consistent doesn't get you very far(As shown by Panenkova), which definitely means that that's not the only thing that would matter. Shcherbakova's lines, posture and full body control in general are much better and I believe that that's going to be reflected on the scoreboards...

This is for the PCS comparison between her and Trusova. Now, as for the rest... It depends on the state of her jumps. But let's say that she actually is able to even repeat the quad Lutz, with a combo... What then?

 

[dansams]

I can't wait for next season to start, and not have to put up w/ more instagram teases.

That Rus Nats is gonna be HOT FIRE!

 

[Fluture]

So we should base our sport on a casual viewer who has basically no understanding of what he/she is watching.

I don't think it's a very healthy way to propel the sport.

That‘s not what I was trying to say. It‘d be absolutely ridiculous to base a sport on the casual viewer but it’s a fact that it‘s not against the rules to pre-rotate a certain amount and I don‘t want it to be either. This doesn‘t mean we shouldn‘t punish UR or edge calls, of course we should, but why bother making rules even more strict and complicated than they already are? Especially if most of the current world elite does pre-rotate? So, we‘re just going to do what - take points off Medvedeva, Zagitova, most of the Russian juniors, Kaetlyn, Satoko and so on, on? This would be... unhealthy. Besides, in no way are Russia, Canada and Japan (whose top ladies are among the most frequent pre-rotators) going to push for a rule change considering pre-rotating. And what countries are left that could push against those three in figure skating? Not many, I‘d say. But we should stop this discussion already, it‘s leading into nowhere, I feel.

Sotnikova and Radionova was at a different time. The competition isn't like what it is right now. They don't give juniors less PCS, they give others higher PCS. Look at Konstantinova. Had she landed a combo in the SP, she would have scored probably enough to take the gold medal. And she was competing against Trusova and Kostornaia, who just went 1-2 and JGPF. No BV difference is enough to make up GOE and PCS different, especially for juniors who automatically get lower PCS than seniors. And that's what I mean. Kostornaia got 3rd place last year, with 2 clean skates and beautiful skating. Alina fell, Sotskova fell and both placed much higher, score wise. Favoritism has been seen even just in seniors, like Masha vs. Anna, Buyanova anyone vs. everyone else. It's more enhanced when the others are juniors, theres more room to underscore them relatively. I think as long as Alina or Zhenya are clean next year, there is no way a junior will be national champion even with 4Lz, 4S, 4T. I mean I think they'd certainly deserve it, I just don't see it happening.

That‘s what I thought, too. They will want to show off their top senior ladies (so either Evgenia or Alina) and not have some 13-year old on the podium. But still, let‘s take into consideration that Trusova isn‘t exactly a randomn 13-year old. She‘s the girl making history, the one that‘s been all over the news, the quad-girl. So, I could see this happen that they allow her to win, as they won‘t lose any reputation with it. Or they simply don‘t know how to stop her from winning. I mean, if she goes clean with who knows how many quads, how could a Zhenya ever beat her with her current TES? 15 points PCS more than her? That sounds a bit like a stretch. Even Alina will have problems and her TES is the best of any current senior lady. But I‘d still very much like it to happen. Zhenya or Alina winning, I mean. It‘s not going to be long before they will be pushed aside for the quadies anyway.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

Nah, they just have to give Sasha 63 in PCS and Zhenya/Alina 78 in PCS = 15pt difference, and honestly I fear they might do that even if Sasha's clean
BUT if she brings 4Lz in addition to 4S and 4T, all bets are off
They might let Sasha get 2nd but never win until she goes senior of course

 

[yoloaxel]

Nah, they just have to give Sasha 63 in PCS and Zhenya/Alina 78 in PCS = 15pt difference, and honestly I fear they might do that even if Sasha's clean

Tbh, I Sasha got even close to Zhenya and Alina's PCS I would be very disappointed in the judges, because at the moment (everyone can get better) there would be no justifying it. Her technical prowess is unmatched, but her FS in particular looks like a jumping exercise more than anything else, and it needs to be judged fairly.

 

[russianfan]

i would like ISU to separate figure skating into two branches:
1) something like "artistic skating"(something i'll never watch) - so all those so called "artistic skaters" can go there and receive prizes for their hands-waving, so their fans will be satisfied
2) "sport skating" with all the jumps, hard elements, etc - pure sport, so whoever shows more complicated elements in total - wins

PCS is an utter bs anyway and mean nothing

 

[yoloaxel]

i would like ISU to separate figure skating into two branches:
1) something like "artistic skating"(something i'll never watch) - so all those so called "artistic skaters" can go there and receive prizes for their hands-waving, so their fans will be satisfied
2) "sport skating" with all the jumps, hard elements, etc - pure sport, so whoever shows more complicated elements in total - wins

PCS is an utter bs anyway and mean nothing

Idk if you were referring to my post or not, but either way I actually disagree with this. The beauty of figure skating for me is that it combines athleticism and art. If you take out the artistic part, you lose something beautiful. You might as well get rid of the music, the costumes and the choreography and have a jumping competition.

There are so many bautiful artistic skaters (Javi, Yuzuru, Stephane Lambiel, Carolina to name a few) who also have great technical abilities. I think what makes a true champion is having both things.

This doesn't diminish the athletic achievements of people like Trusova, for example, but at the same time I find myself preferring to watch, for example, Kostornaia or Medvedeva or Higuchi, who are also brilliant technically although not as monstruous as Sasha, but can skate to the music, interpret it, make me feel something. Figure skating should be about having it all. That's just my opinion