2018-19 Russian Ladies' figure skating

[cohen-esque]

If the WADA thing rears its head again before the next Olympics, RusFed might do very well to invest in skaters training outside the country. (Though hopefully it’ll be forgotten by then; I’ve more or less put it out of mind before being reminded by talk of Russian athletes out of country.)

Anyway, with the proposed age limits, it might be good for RusFed to invest in alternate training environments. Whatever is to be said of the Russian coaches, nobody in Russia is producing long-term consistent women past a certain age. Zhenya is the only one so far— and since she’s not training well with Eteri anymore, it might be worth it, to RusFed, to see if they can keep an older, but long-term reliable skater in the senior ranks by trying out an international coach, since their own coaches aren’t managing it. Brian has as many or more world records by his skaters as Eteri does, but he’s also coached some skaters who were able to stay at the highest international levels for long stretches (Yuna, Yuzu, Javi).

 

[Osmond4gold]

Did their skating federations fully fund their training abroad?

Whada...fully fund, did I imply same? If so vorravorra, that was not my intention.

All team members have a certain honorarium from their home countries. How they wish to sent it training wise, should be their prerogative. If they feel they need certain coaches to advance in the sport, that is their decision and should be respected as such.

 

[ramed]

If the WADA thing rears its head again before the next Olympics, RusFed might do very well to invest in skaters training outside the country. (Though hopefully it’ll be forgotten by then; I’ve more or less put it out of mind before being reminded by talk of Russian athletes out of country.)

Anyway, with the proposed age limits, it might be good for RusFed to invest in alternate training environments. Whatever is to be said of the Russian coaches, nobody in Russia is producing long-term consistent women past a certain age. Zhenya is the only one so far— and since she’s not training well with Eteri anymore, it might be worth it, to RusFed, to see if they can keep an older, but long-term reliable skater in the senior ranks by trying out an international coach, if their own coaches aren’t managing it. Brian has as many or more world records by his skaters as Eteri does, but he’s also coached some skaters who were able to stay at the highest international levels for long stretches (Yuna, Yuzu, Javi).

As long as WADA's ugly head remains so heavily fueled by political agenda and the presumption of innocence becomes extinct, training abroad will not be a guarantee of anything.

 

[vorravorra]

then I guess that the money they made shouldnt go to the government either, yet they have to give the money they earn to the coaches (a part of it)

Not just the coaches. They have to pay to the Fed too for being represented by it. But this can bee seen as a return on the state's investment in training them since they were little kids. I personally believe Zhenya should get the same money as every member of Team Russia, there is absolutely no reason to refuse to give her that only because she'll spend it in another country. But this is a complex issue because this funding is not in the form of a grant that is given to the skater and that they use to pay for training, ice time etc. The club is funded directly for the facilities. The skaters get a salary, certain funding for costumes, programs, going to competitions, skates, uniforms etc.

 

[moriel]

then I guess that the money they made shouldnt go to the government either, yet they have to give the money they earn to the coaches (a part of it)

Oh, so coaches are government now?

 

[vorravorra]

Whada...fully fund, did I imply same? If so vorravorra, that was not my intention.

All team members have a certain honorarium from their home countries. How they wish to sent it training wise, should be their prerogative. If they feel they need certain coaches to advance in the sort, that is their decision and should be respected as such.

The issue is that Russian skaters are not given a honorarium to spend on training, all of that is paid above their heads, so to speak. If a skater wants to go abroad this becomes a problem.

 

[moriel]

If the WADA thing rears its head again before the next Olympics, RusFed might do very well to invest in skaters training outside the country. (Though hopefully it’ll be forgotten by then; I’ve more or less put it out of mind before being reminded by talk of Russian athletes out of country.)

Anyway, with the proposed age limits, it might be good for RusFed to invest in alternate training environments. Whatever is to be said of the Russian coaches, nobody in Russia is producing long-term consistent women past a certain age. Zhenya is the only one so far— and since she’s not training well with Eteri anymore, it might be worth it, to RusFed, to see if they can keep an older, but long-term reliable skater in the senior ranks by trying out an international coach, since their own coaches aren’t managing it. Brian has as many or more world records by his skaters as Eteri does, but he’s also coached some skaters who were able to stay at the highest international levels for long stretches (Yuna, Yuzu, Javi).

Let me correct you, "nobody in the World is producing long-term consistent women past a certain age".
Please point out a single CONSISTENT lady past lets say 18.

 

[Osmond4gold]

The issue is that Russian skaters are not given a honorarium to spend on training, all of that is paid above their heads, so to speak. If a skater wants to go abroad this becomes a problem.

Thanks for clarifying. I don't believe that a skater like Evgenia is expecting her federation to cover all of her expenses next season, as I am sure they didn't for Yagudin when he lived/trained in the states. Esp. when his main rival, Plushy, was back in Russia.

 

[sweetice]

"nobody in the World is producing long-term consistent women past a certain age".

Not in this last olympic quad, but before...

 

[ramed]

Ask me, 'What do you like more , a single moment of greatness or several years of mediocrity ?' Guess what I'll answer .

 

[vorravorra]

Thanks for clarifying. I don't believe that a skater like Evgenia is expecting her federation to cover all of her expenses next season, as I am sure they didn't for Yagudin when he lived/trained in the states.

And if she continues to represent Sambo-70, will it still get the funding it would normally get for a Team member? This I am not sure about.
I also don't think the Fed will cover all expenses, but some people in this thread seem to be worried about exactly that. The Fed can't have all other team members take a paycut to pay for Zhenya, the money will have to come from some outside source, even if part of it is from the government. The Fed has been known for helping skaters to find sponsors, but in Zhenya's case she already has her own sponsors.

 

[ramed]

Several years of greatness?

True, but you know what I mean... We're talking too much about consistency and longevity but some are born to make just one outstanding performance in their lifetime, and I don't want to miss it only because some bureaucrats decided to establish a new limit.

 

[cohen-esque]

Let me correct you, "nobody in the World is producing long-term consistent women past a certain age".
Please point out a single CONSISTENT lady past lets say 18.

I mean, define “consistent.” But, Zhenya (well, she’s 18 now), Miyahara, Osmond by results, which I would argue is what actually matters. In comparable historical eras, Yuna, though she didn’t compete much past 19. Maybe Mao in the 2005-2010 and 2012-2014 period, also by results. She’s an example of a skater who was able to overcome her post-puberty decline, before her time off. Michelle Kwan was landing seven triples and winning into her twenties, though she was too long ago to be a worthwhile comparison.

As opposed to say: Lipnitskaya (didn’t even make it to 18), Tsurskaya (let’s see; I hope), Tuktamhsheva, Radionova, Sotnikova, Sotskova...

Russian ladies are unique in having Uber-consistent juniors who near universally lose that consistency, and no one in Russia seems able to fix it, and we get inconsistent skating and poor placements: Tsurskaya couldn’t make the GP Final, Radionova can’t even make it to the GPF, Euros or Worlds despite being a medalist in the past, we all saw how Sotnikova worked out (but she was plagued by injury) and Lipnitskaia’s post-Sochi seasons. And it’s not just that they can’t compete domestically, which would be one thing, it’s that they’re all declining to the point where they’re losing to foreign skaters they used to be able to beat.

I think perhaps at this point, the foreign coaches who are used to working with less consistent skaters and then getting consistent results anyway—Orser being the best example, and the coach in question— might have something of an experience advantage.

 

[chopinskate]

What do you say, I could make a "Great Consistency Debate" thread, or something?

 

[moriel]

I mean, define “consistent.” But, Zhenya (well, she’s 18 now), Miyahara, Osmond by results, which I would argue is what actually matters. In comparable historical eras, Yuna, though she didn’t compete much past 19. Maybe Mao in the 2005-2010 and 2012-2014 period, also by results. She’s an example of a skater who was able to overcome her post-puberty decline, before her time off. Michelle Kwan was landing seven triples and winning into her twenties, though she was too long ago to be a worthwhile comparison.

As opposed to say: Lipnitskaya (didn’t even make it to 18), Tsurskaya (let’s see; I hope), Tuktamhsheva, Radionova, Sotnikova, Sotskova...

Russian ladies are unique in having Uber-consistent juniors who near universally lose that consistency, and no one in Russia seems able to fix it, and we get inconsistent skating and poor placements: Tsurskaya couldn’t make the GP Final, Radionova can’t even make it to the GPF, Euros or Worlds despite being a medalist in the past, we all saw how Sotnikova worked out (but she was plagued by injury) and Lipnitskaia’s post-Sochi seasons. And it’s not just that they can’t compete domestically, which would be one thing, it’s that they’re all declining to the point where they’re losing to foreign skaters they used to be able to beat.

I think perhaps at this point, the foreign coaches who are used to working with less consistent skaters and then getting consistent results anyway—Orser being the best example, and the coach in question— might have something of an experience advantage.

Zhenia is not consistent past 18.
Miyahara is only consistent due to extremely bad technique, so it is debatable.
Osmond is not consistent, when was the last time she skated 2 clean programs back to back again?
Yuna did not compete past 19.
Mao, is it the one with URs and other issues?

Ok, so far you managed to list only one consistent skater. Anybody else?

As for Radionova and Tuktamysheva, i think it was written over 100 times in this thread already. The failure to make the team is not related to them performing poorly, it is related to the next generation of girls being simply better. They are not declining, they are just not able to go to major competitions because Russia has limited spots, and there are stronger new skaters now.

Orser's consistent results are debatable. I mean, please point at least one Orser's skater that has consistent results. Hanyu? No, he has major ups and downs, and the difference between his max and min scores in any season is something like 50. That is like, the BV of 4 quads. Javi? Same story. Daleman?

 

[chopinskate]

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?73033-The-Great-Consistency-Debate!

I am interested in reading this, too.

 

[vorravorra]

I mean, define “consistent.” But, Zhenya (well, she’s 18 now), Miyahara, Osmond by results, which I would argue is what actually matters. In comparable historical eras, Yuna, though she didn’t compete much past 19. Maybe Mao in the 2005-2010 and 2012-2014 period, also by results. She’s an example of a skater who was able to overcome her post-puberty decline, before her time off. Michelle Kwan was landing seven triples and winning into her twenties, though she was too long ago to be a worthwhile comparison.

As opposed to say: Lipnitskaya (didn’t even make it to 18), Tsurskaya (let’s see; I hope), Tuktamhsheva, Radionova, Sotnikova, Sotskova...

Russian ladies are unique in having Uber-consistent juniors who near universally lose that consistency, and no one in Russia seems able to fix it, and we get inconsistent skating and poor placements: Tsurskaya couldn’t make the GP Final, Radionova can’t even make it to the GPF, Euros or Worlds despite being a medalist in the past, we all saw how Sotnikova worked out (but she was plagued by injury) and Lipnitskaia’s post-Sochi seasons. And it’s not just that they can’t compete domestically, which would be one thing, it’s that they’re all declining to the point where they’re losing to foreign skaters they used to be able to beat.

I think perhaps at this point, the foreign coaches who are used to working with less consistent skaters and then getting consistent results anyway—Orser being the best example, and the coach in question— might have something of an experience advantage.

Tsurskaya's problems are health-related. Sotskova is about as consistent as she has ever been, I believe. Tuktamysheva made it through puberty just fine and had one great season but then seems to have lost motivation. I have a feeling something like that is going on with Radionova, she doesn't see a point in fighting. Lipnistkaya's technique simply did not survive puberty.

 

[shine]

True, but you know what I mean... We're talking too much about consistency and longevity but some are born to make just one outstanding performance in their lifetime, and I don't want to miss it only because some bureaucrats decided to establish a new limit.

Then we probably just view skating fundamentally and philosophically different. I probably will never see eye to eye with this shortsighted view on what success means when it comes to figure skating and developing figure skaters.

 

[cohen-esque]

Zhenia is not consistent past 18.
Miyahara is only consistent due to extremely bad technique, so it is debatable.
Osmond is not consistent, when was the last time she skated 2 clean programs back to back again?
Yuna did not compete past 19.
Mao, is it the one with URs and other issues?

Ok, so far you managed to list only one consistent skater. Anybody else?

As for Radionova and Tuktamysheva, i think it was written over 100 times in this thread already. The failure to make the team is not related to them performing poorly, it is related to the next generation of girls being simply better. They are not declining, they are just not able to go to major competitions because Russia has limited spots, and there are stronger new skaters now.

Orser's consistent results are debatable. I mean, please point at least one Orser's skater that has consistent results. Hanyu? No, he has major ups and downs, and the difference between his max and min scores in any season is something like 50. That is like, the BV of 4 quads. Javi? Same story. Daleman?

Yuna retired at 23 and she never placed off the podium. Osmond has medalled at 13/15 competitions she’s been in in the past two seasons (placing 4th both other times).

Mao was a “maybe”: but she was landing 3As for over a decade straight (compare to Tuktamhsheva) and won a slew of World, 4CC, GPF medals and titles. Between 2011 and 2014 (over 18, and before the time off) she only missed the podium twice, and the same between 2003-2010 (but which includes pre-18 years, obviously).

As for Orser, Hanyu has medalled at literally every single competition he’s been in from 2015... and since the six seasons he’s been with Orser, he’s only missed the podium twice (also placing 4th both times.) Javi has only missed the podium three times since Sochi. Yuna, while she was with him, won 3 GP Finals and a World and Olympic title, aside from setting 11 world record scores.

In what universe are those not consistent results?!

Radionova lost to Japanese (and American?) skaters and CaroK on the GP, not simply Russians. Ditto Tuktamhsheva. Their scores have declined since their peaks, not just their placements, despite a general trend of scoring inflation. It is not just that the new generation is stronger, they have gotten worse.

EDIT: Daleman, though, I grant you, which is why I think we should temper expectations of Orser’s work with Zhenya until we see it.

 

[sweetice]

Ask me, 'What do you like more , a single moment of greatness or several years of mediocrity ?' Guess what I'll answer .

What is "greatness" ? A quad jump ?

Tastes.

Actually, if i reexamine some programs like Zhou's FS of the Olympics i just see a lot of huge jumps, but not at all a program good to see, and then i prefer to go see again what Jason Brown has do at the 4 Continents, even without quads.

Be able to do some of the most difficult things you can in this sport does not necessarily make you a "complete package", something that great, that memorable to see overall.

I can say the same for Trusova, at the moment. Is impressive what she can do, but i can pick and like more a lot of senior programs, and juniors actually (someone has said Kostornaia ?), skate this season from very different ladies.

You may think otherwise, and maybe prefer to see a future senior ladies event entirely of 15 to 17 years old girls, if not less, but to me skating is not all about tech points. I pick what Kim, Mao and Caro have show past 20y over Julia, Elena (Radionova) and Alina at 15y, anytime, and not because they are Russian, not at all.