2018-19 Russian Ladies' figure skating

[Caustica]

Isn't this the state of Russian ladies skating thread, not the Eteri Tutberidze fanfest? That's why I thought we were talking about both coach and skater. But thank you for clarifying your opinion. It seems you are looking at this from a different perspective from the skaters, who want to win gold, rather than be a reflection of their coaches. Let's pretend Alina was coached by someone other than Eteri. Do you think Eteri think there was a difference, then, between her achievements with 18+ skaters and Brians?

This line of thinking does not make sense. Of course, to skaters, OGM and OSM are two completely different results. But when assessing whether to move coaches, the skater would assess the coach's abilities to coach skaters, rather than their skaters' personal feelings about their results. And the coach's abilities aren't necessarily tied to results, since results depend on who else is at the competition and their performance as well.

All that the Olympics shows is that Eteri can coach both 15 year-olds and 18 year-olds very well.

I'm sure Eteri thinks her coaching ability (for ladies) is better than Brian's since she has two Olympic medals to Brian's one (Gabby's main coach is not Brian).

 

[moriel]

Isn't this the state of Russian ladies skating thread, not the Eteri Tutberidze fanfest? That's why I thought we were talking about both coach and skater. But thank you for clarifying your opinion. It seems you are looking at this from a different perspective from the skaters, who want to win gold, rather than be a reflection of their coaches. Let's pretend Alina was coached by someone other than Eteri. Do you think Eteri think there was a difference, then, between her achievements with 18+ skaters and Brians?

We are not talking about what skaters think or what coaches think.
We are currently discussing the interview of Medvedeva, and a statement which she made there, that Orser is great at coaching older ladies because Yuna.
A few of us found this statement debatable, and we are debating it.

Please read a few posts before hijacking the discussion.

 

[Shayuki]

It seems that the salt here against Zhenya is because she didn't want to stick around to see if she could be Eteri's first successful adult skater. She made an assessment and did what she thought was best for herself. Unforgivable, right?

So, Moriel and Shayuki: you guys are basically saying that Zhenya should be satisfied with the silver she got. Is that it?

... Are you not projecting?
I guess here I should say: "Why are you putting words in my mouth"? Here, I merely stated that the reason she gave doesn't make a whole lot of logical sense and explained why that's the case... That's it. If she wanted change, there'd be numerous reasons I would find perfectly understandable. And it has nothing to do with her being or not being satisfied with silver, I don't think that that was something I ever even implied...?

 

[moriel]

KiraraChin, I am saying that what Zhenya said in her interview about Orser, Yuna and longevity makes no sense to me, because BOrser, same as Eteri, never coached successful older ladies. I do not say that she should be satisfied with her silver, or that she shouldnt have moved to BOrser.

 

[russianfan]

So what i understood from the last few pages is that if you use logic and actual arguments you're either Medvedeva's hater or Tutberidze's fanboy.
Now i get it. If you have coached 19yo to success - you're an ultimate coach for mature ladies. But if you managed to coach only 18yo to success - this one is just an exception and doesn't count :agree:

 

[Persimmons]

We are not talking about what skaters think or what coaches think.
We are currently discussing the interview of Medvedeva, and a statement which she made there, that Orser is great at coaching older ladies because Yuna.
A few of us found this statement debatable, and we are debating it.

Please read a few posts before hijacking the discussion.

Please do not accuse me of "hijacking" the discussion - last I checked a discussion could evolve. Then let me ask you the same question - if Alina had been coached by another individual, would you think Eteri's achievements were equal to Brians with 18+ female skaters? If the answer is yes, then I think we are discussing the same thing. I think the difference between what we're debating and the intent of Evgenia's comment is she isn't trying to be Brian's PR hype man, she's looking out for her own interests. If you think her statement is misguided, what's the ultimate point about Russian ladies skating? That she's not any better off? Got it.

 

[Persimmons]

So what i understood from the last few pages is that if you use logic and actual arguments you're either Medvedeva's hater or Tutberidze's fanboy.
Now i get it. If you have coached 19yo to success - you're an ultimate coach for mature ladies. But if you managed to coach only 18yo to success - this one is just an exception and doesn't count :agree:

Eteri did an amazing job with Evgenia, and of course it counts. If she never chose to move and chose to retire instead, she'd be as decorated as she is now all thanks to Eteri. Brian is by no means a gateway for "older" success - he's quite lucky he's working with someone with this much hype. But equating Gold to Silver? Last I checked those were not the same.

 

[russianfan]

Last i checked "junior coach" Eteri has won(as a coach) all major senior competitions but one in the last 3 years.

 

[Fluture]

So what i understood from the last few pages is that if you use logic and actual arguments you're either Medvedeva's hater or Tutberidze's fanboy.
Now i get it. If you have coached 19yo to success - you're an ultimate coach for mature ladies. But if you managed to coach only 18yo to success - this one is just an exception and doesn't count :agree:

Oh come on, you know that‘s not true. I don‘t think anyone was trying to say that Orser‘s the ultimate coach or Eteri a failure or something like that. Just that Orser‘s at least as good as Eteri at coaching older skaters if not better (that depends on the way you see it, I agree now). And I also agree that Evgenia‘s statement with Yuna could be a bit misleading and she could have used a better one. But again, she probably just saw the appeal of a consistent Yuna with great technique (even though it‘s debatable whether she really got that from Orser) who won an OGM and that‘s why she said that. Nothing more.

@above: Yes but „senior“ isn‘t synonymous with „adult skater“. Zagitova‘s been 15 when she won the senior competitions. Medvedeva was 16/17 when she won her world titles. The only medal she has with an adult skater is Med‘s silver medal. So yes, I‘d say she does focus on junior skaters and younger senior skaters. Which AGAIN isn‘t bad.

 

[russianfan]

Just that Orser‘s at least as good as Eteri at coaching older skaters

this is something i can probably agree with

 

[lesnar001]

Eteri did an amazing job with Evgenia, and of course it counts. If she never chose to move and chose to retire instead, she'd be as decorated as she is now all thanks to Eteri. Brian is by no means a gateway for "older" success - he's quite lucky he's working with someone with this much hype. But equating Gold to Silver? Last I checked those were not the same.

I don't understand why you have her only other option as "don't move and choose to retire". She could have chosen to stay with Eteri also.

Gold and Silver not the same - but MUCH CLOSER in 2018 than in 2010.

Top 3 in 2018 all skated beautifully and a little mistake here or there could have changed the results.
Top 3 in 2010 weren't even close - Mao Asada had major mistake in LP and IIRC Joannie Rochette had a couple of minor stumbles.

2010 results similar to 2006
2018 results similar to 1998

If you use only "Gold" vs "Silver" as a measuring stick then Robin Wagner was a much more succesful ladies coach than Frank Carroll.

 

[KiraraChin]

... Are you not projecting?
I guess here I should say: "Why are you putting words in my mouth"? Here, I merely stated that the reason she gave doesn't make a whole lot of logical sense and explained why that's the case... That's it. If she wanted change, there'd be numerous reasons I would find perfectly understandable. And it has nothing to do with her being or not being satisfied with silver, I don't think that that was something I ever even implied...?

KiraraChin, I am saying that what Zhenya said in her interview about Orser, Yuna and longevity makes no sense to me, because BOrser, same as Eteri, never coached successful older ladies. I do not say that she should be satisfied with her silver, or that she shouldnt have moved to BOrser.

Now i get it. If you have coached 19yo to success - you're an ultimate coach for mature ladies. But if you managed to coach only 18yo to success - this one is just an exception and doesn't count :agree:

From everything you wrote, it does awfully sound like you guys think Zhenya's silver medal is the same level of achievement as Yuna's gold medal. It's a shame Zhenya herself feels differently, right?

 

[Fluture]

this is something i can probably agree with

That‘s good because this whole discussion is making me a bit anxious to be honest.

Just to lighten the mood a bit: We‘ve just reached 200 pages (201, I guess) in this thread and it‘s still the off season

 

[moriel]

As a side note, folks,

CONGRATS!

Page 200, people!!

Good job, keep discussing, chances are we may actually hit 300 at test skates.

 

[Kirpich]

Wow, i've finally read out all the debate about Zhenya's interview and her motivation of moving to Orser. I think neither of him and Eteri are expirienced with 20+ yo women singles but aside from that there is still plenty of reasons for Zhenya to change the coach. I don't know how it will work out with them,but curious about result, it's pretty intriguing. But yeah, this is kinda wrong thread for discussions on this topic, all though i don't know how it should've been moved from here to the coaches fanfest or where it is more on topic

 

[frallik]

I'm not sure on whether she mean test skates or a CS competition? Can any russian speaker enlighten us

In September on required control skatings EM will meet Tuktamysheva, Radionova, Konstantinova, Sotskova, Kostornaya, Zagitova, Tsurskaya, Panenkova... + 5 more ladies with BV higher than her. Most likely on the RusNats she will not even enter the top five.
By the way ET has 3 Olympic champions.

 

[moriel]

I don't understand why you have her only other option as "don't move and choose to retire". She could have chosen to stay with Eteri also.

Gold and Silver not the same - but MUCH CLOSER in 2018 than in 2010.

Top 3 in 2018 all skated beautifully and a little mistake here or there could have changed the results.
Top 3 in 2010 weren't even close - Mao Asada had major mistake in LP and IIRC Joannie Rochette had a couple of minor stumbles.

2010 results similar to 2006
2018 results similar to 1998

If you use only "Gold" vs "Silver" as a measuring stick then Robin Wagner was a much more succesful ladies coach than Frank Carroll.

She could also have moved to Ravi Walia, who coached 22 years old Osmond into Olympic Bronze at her second Olympics. Or to Michael Huth, who have coached Kostner to 3 Olympics if i am not mistaken. Or the 2 coaches that coached Yuna into her second Olympics and the silver medal at her second Olympics for that very same reason she mentioned - they clearly know how to work with older ladies =)

 

[Fluture]

I don't understand why you have her only other option as "don't move and choose to retire". She could have chosen to stay with Eteri also.

Gold and Silver not the same - but MUCH CLOSER in 2018 than in 2010.

Top 3 in 2018 all skated beautifully and a little mistake here or there could have changed the results.
Top 3 in 2010 weren't even close - Mao Asada had major mistake in LP and IIRC Joannie Rochette had a couple of minor stumbles.

2010 results similar to 2006
2018 results similar to 1998

If you use only "Gold" vs "Silver" as a measuring stick then Robin Wagner was a much more succesful ladies coach than Frank Carroll.

It was her only option because she didn‘t want to stay with Eteri any longer. The rivalry with Zagitova, seeing all the young quad jumping prodigies, it probably was too much. Whereas in Toronto things seem much more relaxed. Gabby and her are friends but really don‘t rival each other that much like Alina and Zhenya did. (Imo, if they‘re clean their only threat is the other one) Jason and her already seem to have become quite good friends. Of course, she knows Yuzu and Javi as well, I guess and they‘re obviously no threat to her because they don‘t compete with each other. So I guess she just chose what was best for not only her results but her mental health as well which is currently one of her biggest strengths. Constant pressure, seeing those who one day inevitably will surpass her, it must take a toll on you. She managed to push it out of her mind during the Olympic season because she was set on her goal but I can imagine that she later realised how difficult this would be if she continued to stay with Eteri. That would probably also explain why, after the Olympics, she was still so set on staying with Eteri. She hadn‘t yet fully understood that things had changed, she had changed. And when she realised it she‘d already said what she‘d said, made all those statements. And yet, she still decided to change which takes a great bit of courage to my mind. Of course I can‘t guarantee this, it‘s only what I believe so just mere assumptions but what I was trying to say: She could have chosen to stay with Eteri, yes but she didn‘t want to. So, Orser ultimately was her only choice.

 

[Sugar Coated]

Zhenya most likely is being diplomatic. It’s likely less about the history of success with older female skater and more about her wanting a change of coach/training environment. It’s gotta be really hard to train with Alina and all the juniors after getting silver. But she can’t really say that. Yagudin seemed to sympathize and understand her perspective. And while BOrser may not have history of any more success with older ladies it does seem Eteri has a history of burning out older athletes, especially after initial success. BOrsers philosophy seems more suited to longevity but really Zhenya’s outcome will determine if this is true or not.

 

[Shayuki]

So on the topic of the new GOE changes, which of the Russian ladies do we actually expect to be able to routinely hit +3 GOE? It requires: Very good take off and landing, very good jump height and distance, effortless throughout. Would Zagitova and Medvedeva even hit these, or would they be stuck at +1-+2 GOE? Would Tuktamysheva's stock raise massively because she would be able to +4 or +5 almost everything? Tsurskaya as well? I wonder how much jump height exactly is required. If Medvedeva and Zagitova can't ever get higher than +2 GOE on jumps the competition within Russia might change more dramatically than we expect. If these skaters would hit the "very good height and distance"-bullet point, then honestly almost every notable Russian skater will be able to and that's no concern.