2018-19 Russian Ladies' figure skating

[bubblecherry]

That is not exactly true. Evgenia has been asked several times about Eteri saying that she wanted Alina to stay in juniors. Here are her statements:

Off season, right after Eteri made the comment: "No comment."
October: "I don’t remember exactly, but even if I say something, I didn’t mean it like this."
November: "There are lots of rumors right now saying that I want to prevent junior skaters to access the senior ranks, that I get mad at them. I’m not."

She gets asked about this a lot. I wish the reporters would stop asking. Evgenia's answers are different every time.

None of these things contradict one another. Once she doesn't want to answer, the next time she answers, the next time she states her opinion on the subject in question. But yes, people should stop asking her because she's already shut it down and it's just unproductive gossip and at this point is entirely not interesting.

Anyway, I cannot understand why people want to rehash Eteri and Evgenia drama at this point. It's boring.

 

[Icey]

Did Evgenia revert to some of her old technique in the long program?

 

[zenskate]

The essence of what happened to Alina is that when she came with flowers and with words of gratitude to Eteri, she was leaving figure skating and she was student of Anna Tsareva. No one, including Eteri, did not expect that she will come to say farewell to her. In addition, I guess, she was looking on Eteri with adoring eyes. Would you be able to resist? Eteri couldn't.

This kind of gesture is why I admire Alina as a person as well as a skater. When Eteri dismissed Alina, she ended Alina's dreams of being a great figure skater. But Alina didn't respond with ugly words or ignore Eteri. When the time came, Alina still came to say thank you and farewell with flowers in her arms.

If someone slaps your right cheek, instinct is to protect yourself, not to turn over your other cheek to be slapped, too.
How many can look past their own hurt and disappointment to recognize that person responsible for hurting and disappointing them still deserves to be thanked for the good things they did? Not a lot. But Alina could, at the tender age of 13. That is one of the many reasons she is Olympic champion.

P.S. Eteri is very passionate about second chances. She had a failed career in dance and gave up to skate in shows. It was a decision she regretted, but circumstances forced her. No one gave her a second chance to become a great skater. That is why now that she is a coach herself, she is very willing to giving second chances to students.

 

[Sugar Coated]

None of these things contradict one another. Once she doesn't want to answer, the next time she answers, the next time she states her opinion on the subject in question. But yes, people should stop asking her because she's already shut it down and it's just unproductive gossip and at this point is entirely not interesting.

Anyway, I cannot understand why people want to rehash Eteri and Evgenia drama at this point. It's boring.

Exactly. All of those things are reasonable answers that aren't inconsistent. Every one focuses on Evgenia's inconsistencies but some of Eteri's statements also appear inconsistent. She mentioned that she found out about Zhenya leaving on TV, correct? But their social media group had deleted her pictures several days before the announcement which suggests that her leaving was known before this time to the people at sambo-70 and Eteri.

I understand that culturally this felt like a major faux pas and disrespectful to an elder and teacher. But from another perspective, Eteri owes Zhenya the same respect for her years of work and she had just as much responsibility to attempt to make the breakup amicable rather than trashing her on TV. Zhenya solidified Eteri as a top coach. It was Zhenya's tireless hard work and performance under pressure that resulted in monetary rewards and prestige for Eteri. And Zhenya's success was probably instrumental in recruiting other top talent to Sambo-70.

 

[malya]

Can we please not talk about Zhenya VS Eteri and the lost OGM again. I think everything has been argued a million times before.

... Change of topic ...

With 3A sweeping the podium the thing to do is to complain about the junior skaters in an adult championship. What is your opinion on raising the age limit at RusNats and internationally?

In my opinion

ISU: keep it

RusNats: raise the limit a bit so only juniors that are able to compete senior internationally in the next season can enter. I love to see the 'new wave' aproaching and it's frustrating when they can't compete against seniors anyways for over a year internationally. For example Kostornaia won senior bronze last year and was still in JGP this season. If you don't care about the 'new wave' aspect you can limit the age restrictions all together.

 

[Alexz]

Can we please not talk about Zhenya VS Eteri and the lost OGM again. I think everything has been argued a million times before.

... Change of topic ...

With 3A sweeping the podium the thing to do is to complain about the junior skaters in an adult championship. What is your opinion on raising the age limit at RusNats and internationally?

In my opinion

ISU: keep it

RusNats: raise the limit a bit so only juniors that are able to compete senior internationally in the next season can enter. I love to see the 'new wave' aproaching and it's frustrating when they can't compete against seniors anyways for over a year internationally. For example Kostornaia won senior bronze last year and was still in JGP this season. If you don't care about the 'new wave' aspect you can limit the age restrictions all together.

I can agree to 16 yo. Starting next Olympic cycle after 2022. And keep it this way at least for another 2 Olympic cycle before returning to this topic and reviewing it again.

 

[DSQ]

post

Thank you for writing this! I hope they find your passport soon.

I agree with you on Med but I think part of the problem is that the Orser way of choreography is to add transitions as the season develops and because she has such problems with her jumps they never had the opportunity to grow her Tango program. Compared to her old stuff it does feel less busy.

 

[zanadude]

Age restrictions at Nationals are ridiculous. It's supposed to be the place to crown the national champion without restriction. So laughable to be protecting people from 12 and 14 year olds.

 

[[email protected]]

With 3A sweeping the podium the thing to do is to complain about the junior skaters in an adult championship. What is your opinion on raising the age limit at RusNats and internationally?

In my opinion

ISU: keep it

RusNats: raise the limit a bit so only juniors that are able to compete senior internationally in the next season can enter. I love to see the 'new wave' aproaching and it's frustrating when they can't compete against seniors anyways for over a year internationally. For example Kostornaia won senior bronze last year and was still in JGP this season. If you don't care about the 'new wave' aspect you can limit the age restrictions all together.

The key question is true motives. I just don't believe that it is a coincidence that yesterday many well-known people in Russia told the media that the age limit has to be raised. Among those not only people related to figure skating but also 5 time Olympic champion in synchronized swimming and a famous footbal commentator. The following comment from an anonymous user got 390 thumb ups - a very rare case at figure skating section of sports.ru (I used normal words while translating - in Russian it sounds harsher):

нравится смотреть на детей? Может лучше смотреть на девушек? Это естественно! Мне Туктамышева приятнее, чем Трусова. Лиза сформировавшиеся девушка, даже с формами, а не ребенок намалеванный. Ценз нужен и даже жестче! Ибо тут должны соревноваться именно девушки, а не девочки, которые не перешагнули пуберат, извините с доской вместо груди и с куцыми ножками к 14 годам. Явно еще и пичкают, что не было циклов естественных. Естественно ребенок может прыгать там и 4-е, вес и прочее, но живет в тюремных условиях - надо и все! Это его ломает! Потом к 16-годам, либо проблемы с здоровьем разного факта или же насыщение фигурным катанием. Когда катаются дети, эти не спорт взрослых... Или же надо как в гимнастике, детей ставить, а после 17-18 списывать переломанных..

"You like to watch kids? May be it's better to watch grown-up girls? It's natural. I like Tuktamysheva more than Trusova. Liza is a fully developed lady rather than a painted up baby. We need even stricter limit. It should be the competition of ladies rather than small pre-puberty girls without breasts and weedy legs at the age of 14. They are surely fed with some stuff to avoid natural cycles. Of course, such a kid can jump quads because of the weight. But she lives in a prison - you must and nothing else. This breaks her up. Then by 16 it's either various health problems or hate of figure skating. When children skate this is not the sport for grown-ups. Or it will be like in gymnastics - train the kids to write them off by 17-18 fully broken"....

Whoever tried to object was critized often getting minuses (they allow dislikes at sports.ru). At the same time, the voting brings a different result: out of 11500 votes 62% are for keeping everything like it is or even letting younger skaters compete with seniors (Sotnikova was 12 when she won the Nationals same as Buyanova/Vodorezova) and only 38% for changing the limit. Hence, I think the outcry is not spontaneous - it is directed against Eteri and her success - nothing new. Luckily "big guns", Lakernik and Chaikovskaya spoke up against changes.

My personal view is "hands off" age limit if it may prevent the 3A from becoming seniors next year. Both "breasts" and "health" concerns are pure hypocrisy.

And a witty reply to those who want to watch "ladies with breasts" was: "there are a lot of such ladies in early groups of international competitions. Why do you people often skip those going directly to later groups where "babies" compete?"

 

[madison]

Even if ISU decides to change the age limit, this should happen after Beijing to give some time to the system to accommodate the change.
It will be unfair to change it immeadiatly next year. It would beneficial for Zagitova for example, who also benefited from the present age limit which allowed her to compete and win in Korea.

 

[zanadude]

If a competition of women with breasts is desired, then create a Senior Championship to go alongside the Junior Championship. Then keep Nationals open so that we can have a true winner.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Wow...just saw a clip of Sasha’s 4t from her gala ex. Um...that was massive and absolutely textbook clean as can be.

 

[Sam L]

Who was the highest placed junior male in the senior men competition?

 

[nips]

I like the juniors. They truly deserved the podium. Even if their PCS were lower. The pcs points are the instrument of judges to back up the seniors who have their accomplishment but were unable to deliver once in a while their best skate. Like it or not, but if the competiotion would be strictly based on its performances, we would have two winning seniors Stasya and Sonya and the third spot for worlds for Alina, what could bring disasterous consequences to everyone next year. Now it eas possible to split euros and worlds between Liza and Sonya.

I admire the determination of Sasha and Anna with training their quads. I am definitely not against it. But they are still young girls who need to develop correctly. And like we see in gymnastics, the trainer and sometimes even the parents do everything possible just to keep those girls from puberty. the competition is simply too tight and you need to do really everything. then we see many talented girls who haven't even reach their 20s retiring with anorexia and injuries. At least as much as we are clapping for Sashas quads (yes, she is really amazing) we should appreciate the rare skaters, who even getting older have the right technique and still step by step can deliver some improvements like Liza, Caro and hopefully one day even Zhenya.
The thing is that most of the girls/trainers want rather win today then to invest in a long career. Eteris way vs Mishins way. If the age for the nationals would be raised the trainer would be forced to develop the technique how to skate well not only today but be able to enjoy it even in fee years.

 

[Sam L]

I don’t want Figure Skating to become like Artistic Gymnastics that sport is a joke with someone like Biles doing somersaults. Rhythmic Gymnastics is the real gymnastics, the current dominant champions Averina are in their early 20s. No age restrictions there. The emphasis is not on tricks but quality and grace.

 

[lzxnl]

Wow...just saw a clip of Sasha’s 4t from her gala ex. Um...that was massive and absolutely textbook clean as can be.

I think you'll find that there are always valid concerns about Sasha's quads, especially how she takes off forwards and thus doesn't do a true 4T or 4Lz. I think her 4S was pretty good though; sad to not see it again.

Re raising the age limit, I think something does indeed need to be done to discourage risky training of quads, although I don't think anything will be done until the two quadsters reach puberty (inevitably) and we see what happens to them. Only then will we see if something needs to be done.

 

[Fluture]

My problem is primarily this: I do not want quads to be necessary to win a competition like it is in men’s.

And one reason why I was so happy about Alena winning JGPF and even Anna winning Nationals here was that both put a lot of factor on artistry and the PCS. Anna, while certainly not having the skating skills Alena has, at least listens to the music and interprets it. Sasha does not. I say it as harshly, yes, because I have been told that she has musicality she does interpret and I have watched her programs over the months multiple times and if you focus solely on the way her body moves to the music it is clear that she doesn‘t. She enjoys skating and enjoys her programs, she is intense and concentrated but her body never responds to the music or feels it. She has timing (e.g. in the SP with the combo perfectly timed to the music) but she always looks like she’s just ticking off boxes on what she’s been told to do. It’s okay, she’s still young after all and not many have an ability like Anna’s and Alena’s which I think is inherent. But my problem is primarily how she reacted to the losses which were, the first time primarily because she failed her quads and the second time because she had a PCS difference with Anna. But both time PCS allowed her competitors to gain an advantage. Alena would never have won in Vancouver had she not had a significant lead in PCS.

And the same at Nationals: Anna won due to PCS and her were already quite low to begin with! I mean, yes, had Sasha landed the second quad she would have won and I think we all know that. But that’s exactly what I don‘t want to happen. That it’s always just... how many quads will the winner need? Because figure skating is a sport, yes, but there’s a reason why there‘s the components factor and the spins and the footwork.

And I know Sasha was disappointed. And I understand it, to lose twice after a year of utter domination must be harsh and I feel for her. Because it‘s obvious that she does not understand what has changed. Last year her PCS and Alena‘s were almost equal, there was at most 2 - 3 points difference. And she is young and determined after all and at this point she knows no fear. But she has seen her PCS score twice now and she was surprised by it. The rules have changed. This is a clear message by the judges. If they can prevent someone winning solely because of quads, they will do so. Because they want the complete package, not only quads. And I wish her and her team would understand it. Build the other things up. Create solid basics.

She has worked on spins, that’s great and I’m glad that she‘s making the effort. And yes, the SP works for her, too because it hides her weaknesses of emoting and shows her strengths instead. But the FS... I’m sorry, if the quads are gone the program doesn’t have much going for it. And I wish her team saw that. But instead we have Sasha saying she‘ll learn 4Lo and 4F and not give up. Girl, you don’t need to give up, you are almost unbeatable already. But why rely solely on your ability to do quads when you could be the complete package of artistry and technique?

I like all three of them and I like that they are unique and I would never want to force Sasha to become the fragile elegant type of skater Anna and Alena are. She is powerful and athletic primarily. That‘s okay, everyone has different strengths after all. But what I’d want for her is to take the time to listen to the music even though she’s doing extremely difficult elements. It may be a bit too much to ask from a 14 year old girl but maybe her team uses this message it has been given and says: “okay, Sasha, you can do jumps all you want but now we have to do other things more, too. You have seen what happened at the last two competitions.“ But I fear that if she wins JWC, which she is very likely to do, she‘ll only want to increase the quads even further and further.

About the age limit thing: I would say 16 would be perfect because that‘s the age when we‘s seen most skaters start to mature (like Alina this year) and it would create more equal opportunities. But older than that? No. And I‘m not even sure how sustainable it would be. To imagine that someone like Alena Kostornaya would have to spend a THIRD year in juniors even though she’s already almost the complete package is a truly strange thought. It would be fairer for some but really, really unfair for the others. It‘s a difficult situation and while I certainly am the type of person who enjoys watching a skater and athlete evolve over the years and not win everything in sight and then retire immediately to make space for the next wonderbaby to arrive, I know at the same time that those wonderbabies are people too and they work hard and maybe only have this one chance. Alina, for example. Had she been only allowed to go senior this year, would she have ever won the Olympics? I doubt it. It’s a difficult case. Because while it was unfair to the Kostner’s and Medvedeva‘s and Miyahara’s at the Olympics that a pre-pubescent girl was there, pulling off 3-3-3-3-3 in her sleep, this pre-pubescent girl may have had a natural advantage and luck on her side but that doesn‘t mean she didn‘t work as hard as they did. And also... the Miyahara’s and Medvedeva’s and Kostner’s also turned senior at 15 and especially the second of them won everything in sight. It’s not like they’re that different. Medvedeva for example just had bad luck that the Olympics weren‘t a year or two earlier. Had the Olympics been in 2017 or 2016, she would have won without a doubt. But well... that’s life. And yes, originally, she was the same wonderbaby Alina was, there to take over Yulia‘s reign and stun the world at 15. So, should we really prevent some of these girls from getting the biggest chance at experiencing the Olympics just because we want to protect the older ones? Maybe but I find it a very difficult decision to make.

What I think should be changed isn‘t the age limit but the judging system so that it rewards more things than only the technical prowess. And I think this year‘s change worked towards this direction in the right way. Let the young girls fight, too and just give credit where credit is due. Sasha for her technical elements, Alena for her high quality jumps, spins and footwork even if they aren’t ultra-c elements and her PCS. But at the same time do not raise PCS just because of consistency anymore. If this was done correctly, a lot of problems would be gone. But I think we‘re heading slowly but steadily in the right direction. Not forbid or try to stop the technical development of the sport but also make it very clear that the basic roots of figure skating which are skating skills and footwork and some newer additions like PCS and spins should not be forgotten and that it will be punished if the focus is only on the jumps. I feel like this could be the right balance.

 

[moriel]

Elena Tchaikovskaia: "It is not worth to introduce age limits on internal championships. We move forward single ladies figure skating, we won't hold anyone back, we have amazing results, amazing discoveries, and so we will keep moving in this direction. In a year, Anna Shcherbakova, Alexandra Trusova and Alena Kostornaia will be participating in international competitions [on senior level] and they are ready already."
https://www.sports.ru/figure-skating/1070002593.html

That is it for me.


As for what Fluture wrote...
Currently, we have a major flaw in the judging system, where, if you have huge TES, huge PCs and GOEs usually follow. We have seen it last year with Alina (she won not directly because of backloading. We see it this year with Rika.
But i think this should be fixed not by removing talented girls from FS, but rather with fixing the juging.



Also, there is a bunch of people saying it puts pressure on adult skaters.
That is kinda BS. I mean, please keep Kihira in juniors until she loses her 3A because she puts pressure and makes girls nervous. When this is done, then talk about russian juniors =)

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I think you'll find that there are always valid concerns about Sasha's quads, especially how she takes off forwards and thus doesn't do a true 4T or 4Lz. I think her 4S was pretty good though; sad to not see it again.

Totally disagree on nearly everything. I actually think people are being hyper critical to her and Anna and find her technique to be as true as any other. Girls always face this extra scrutiny though. Hopefully their coaches are able to prepare them for the harsh reactions they’ll receive.

I and many others think that learning quads early is the key. Not later. You’re free to your opinions but they are just that. Opinions. Did you even see the quad I was talking about?

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bru9bzChRWj/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1o8f8z96snmc9

That is a true quad done perfectly by the ISU standard.

Re raising the age limit, I think something does indeed need to be done to discourage risky training of quads, although I don't think anything will be done until the two quadsters reach puberty (inevitably) and we see what happens to them. Only then will we see if something needs to be done.

This is just strange to read. Are you suggesting that girls shouldn’t be allowed to train quads or maybe just attempt them until they’ve gone thru an acceptable amount of puberty? It’s just so weird to read I don’t even know where to begin :scratch:

FWIW: I don’t find quads any more dangerous than training 3a. Especially when you have the ups Sasha has been able to develop.

 

[moriel]

Stuff from russian media

People who don't want to raise the min age (basically, rusfed)

Elena Tchaikovskaia: "It is not worth to introduce age limits on internal championships. We move forward single ladies figure skating, we won't hold anyone back, we have amazing results, amazing discoveries, and so we will keep moving in this direction. In a year, Anna Shcherbakova, Alexandra Trusova and Alena Kostornaia will be participating in international competitions [on senior level] and they are ready already."
https://www.sports.ru/figure-skating/1070002593.html

Aleksandr Lakernik: "Obviously, the question about participants age in figure skating exists, and not for the first year, and there are many different oppinions on this topic. We give the chance to participate in russian championship to ladies who are only one year younger than the minimum age, which means they are the athletes who can move to senior level next year. And we have always done this. Lets remember the future Olympic champion Adelina Sotnikova, who won her first russian championship in 2009, age 12."
"I don't think that, for example, Zagitova skated bad because before her, 14 year old Shcherbakova skated well. Alina skated bad by herself, and this is a reason to analyse. But i wouldn't relate those two facts. If Konstantinova was russian champion, with the skate she had yesterday, this wouldn't be great too, because it was not a champion's skate."
"I understand that there is something to talk about, the question will be discussed. But do we have to change the system, that is a big question - we possibly will win something, but surely will also lose something".

https://tass.ru/sport/5945443




People who want to raise the min age

TAT: "We should obey what ISU has done. Maybe this is wrong, but since those are the rules, they will go back to it only in 4 years. We could have changed this, isf we were ready for this question. Nobody was prepared, but of course I would have raised it, to 16 years. No more. We would give a chance for the girls to strengthen, and also for the girls who made the history to quit humanely. And learn something in this time. But now, its not a question that should worry us. In 4 years, this question will be surely raised, and nobody knows how the countries will vote."
https://rsport.ria.ru/20181224/1548569923.html

Ludmila Velikova: "This question has been in the air for as many years as i work, and nothing is being solved and will not be solved. I think that girls should compete with their peers, because this puts pressure on adult athletes, on the ones who already jumped their share, who is not that mobile anymore. Juniors should compete separately".
https://tass.ru/sport/5945652

Oleg Vasiliev: "I already said: i think that little girls shouldn't be allowed to participate in russian championship. The European Championship is literally in 3 weeks, and mental breakdowns of our senior ladies will do no good to anybody. The juniors have enough competitions during the season, to keep in shape and learn how to compete. And the russian senior championship should be the russian championship among seniors. And the results prove my words once more: nobody needs this"
https://rsport.ria.ru/20181223/1548502134.html

Svetlana Romashkina (unrelated to FS): "Yesterday, russian championship in figure skating ended. I follow our figure skaters for quite a while, but so far cannot differentiate Lutz from Loop. But this doesn't keep me from being able to evaluate the artistic, emotional component of the programs. The rusnats performances one again convinced me that I am categorically in favour of women's, womanly, adult figure skating, for the introduction of a minimum age threshold!"
https://www.instagram.com/p/BrujBOkF7a8/?utm_source=ig_embed

Georgi Cherdantsev (unrelated to FS): "I think that this is not normal that figure skating was reduced to performances of 14 years old teenagers. This is professional sport of high achievements after all, with prize money, and not junior competitions. But we understand that a grown woman won't jump 4 rotations. Problem."
https://twitter.com/cherdantsev/status/1076765192632053760