2018-19 Russian Ladies' figure skating

[Fluture]

Totally disagree on nearly everything. I actually think people are being hyper critical to her and Anna and find her technique to be as true as any other. Girls always face this extra scrutiny though. Hopefully their coaches are able to prepare them for the harsh reactions they’ll receive.

I and many others think that learning learning quads early is the key. Not later. You’re free to your opinions but they are just that. Opinions. Did you even see the quad I was talking about?

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bru9bzChRWj/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1o8f8z96snmc9

That is a true quad done perfectly by the ISU standard.




This is just strange to read. Are you suggesting that girls shouldn’t be allowed to train quads until they’ve gone thru an acceptable amount of puberty? It’s just so weird to read I don’t even know where to begin :scratch:

I can see this thread turning into a lot of sea of negativity

I obviously don‘t think the girls should be hated on because of their technique but honestly, to say that their technique is correct when it clearly isn‘t is also a bit strange for me. They deserve respect and admiration for being as daring as they are but to simply state that the technique they‘re using is flawed is not wrong at all to my mind. I like these girls but it‘s obvious that there are problems with how they jump. Does that take away from their performance for me? No. I personally don‘t mind, just like I never minded seeing a flutz. But there are people who do. And for them to point that out is understandable. It only depends on how you do it and the tone you use. And if it‘s said respectfully, it should be okay.

I don‘t want to forbid these girls to learn quads but I do want them to focus on other things too. And especially for their coaches to watch out for them. So, like I said, if Sasha loses twice due to PCS, I want Eteri to make clear to her that now the focus needs to be put somewhere else and not only quads. And statements like: “I‘ll now learn 4Lo and 4F“ as the response to a loss that was caused by PCS, yes, they concern me. And I also wish Sasha would stop jumping quads in gala. Yes, it‘s pleasing the crowd but it‘s just not necessary and a additional risk. Just jump three triples in a row if you want. But not a 4T or 4Lz in show light. Even Daniil showed signs of disapproval and was worried. That‘s what should be limited.

And like I said. Don‘t keep these girls out of seniors but change the judging system accordingly that high TES + consistency doesn‘t result in high PCS. I‘m looking forward to seeing the 3A in seniors. Having them another year in juniors would be weird. That‘s why I‘m in favour of changing the judging system and not the age limit.

 

[eaglehelang]

Its more the long term effects of training quads on the body. Much has been discussed on this since the quad craze started in the men's discpline. Patrick Chan talked quite a bit abt this.

Yuzuru's ankle injuries, Boyang Jin's torn ankle ligaments begore 2018 OG, till now not fully healed.
Was Nathan Chen's hip surgery few years ago due to him training quads ? Vincent Zhou's back injury during OG 2018. Kolyada's back injury.
Shoma's foot injury at 2018 WC, now severe sprained ankle at nationals- Shoma has the least injuries among the quadsters perhaps due to his short stature. Yet at 21, its starting to take its toll on his body.

For the women/girls, the scary way they fall(more scary than the men) makes me think it's only a matter of time before someone breaks a leg.
Like gymnastics, why some moves were subsequently banned? Cos someone became paralysed doing it.
Why did they change the shape of the vault? Cos of Julissa Gomez

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I obviously don‘t think the girls should be hated on because of their technique but honestly, to say that their technique is correct when it clearly isn‘t is also a bit strange for me. They deserve respect and admiration for being as daring as they are but to simply state that the technique they‘re using is flawed is not wrong at all to my mind. I like these girls but it‘s obvious that there are problems with how they jump. Does that take away from their performance for me? No. I personally don‘t mind, just like I never minded seeing a flutz. But there are people who do. And for them to point that out is understandable. It only depends on how you do it and the tone you use. And if it‘s said respectfully, it should be okay.
.

Those poor flutz people

Honestly the only quad I commented on was the one I linked. It’s perfect!!

 

[moriel]

Honestly, most of the arguments are kinda... Well, "mature women's skating" is a sort of a FS meme in russian community at this point.

People say that the seniors get too much pressure. But... They will have to compete with Trusova and Shcherbakova and Kostornaia in less than a year. They have to compete with Kihira now. They HAVE TO be able to handle such pressure, because it is a sport, and there will always be one who skates better than you. If you can't handle, maybe you shouldn't even compete on this level, for your own good.

People say the juniors have an unfair advantage because they got slimmer bodies. But... All people are different. Tursynbayeva will have a "teenage boy's body" for her whole life, because that is her body type. Should she be banned from senior competitions because it is unfair for ladies with wider hips and larger breasts to compete against her? Same goes for quite a bunch of asian skaters. Sotskova and Tsurskaya are tall, which makes the whole skating thing harder. Should we ban skaters who are shorter than 1.65 from competition to make things fair? And so on and so forth. There is no way to make it fair.

People complain about artistry and maturity. Kostornaia, at 13-14, was skating with more artistry and maturity than most of the seniors we know. And honestly, some seniors we know are less artistic than Trusova, even, so what, maybe demote them to juniors? Artistry, like wisdom, do not always comes with age, sometimes age comes alone.

 

[Icey]

The quads notwithstanding, a terrific athletic feat for sure, the Japanese podium was significantly superior to the Russian one imo.

 

[moriel]

Its more the long term effects of training quads on the body. Much has been discussed on this since the quad craze started in the men's discpline. Patrick Chan talked quite a bit abt this.

Yuzuru's ankle injuries, Boyang Jin's torn ankle ligaments begore 2018 OG, till now not fully healed.
Was Nathan Chen's hip surgery few years ago due to him training quads ? Vincent Zhou's back injury during OG 2018. Kolyada's back injury.
Shoma's foot injury at 2018 WC, now severe sprained ankle at nationals- Shoma has the least injuries among the quadsters perhaps due to his short stature. Yet at 21, its starting to take its toll on his body.

For the women/girls, the scary way they fall(more scary than the men) makes me think it's only a matter of time before someone breaks a leg.
Like gymnastics, why some moves were subsequently banned? Cos someone became paralysed doing it.
Why did they change the shape of the vault? Cos of Julissa Gomez

Matter of time?
Shcherbakova broke a leg last year already. And nope, it was not on a quad, but on a simple triple.

 

[Lunalovesskating]

https://twitter.com/olyphil/status/1077188592945020929?s=19

Apparently Zhenya could have a chance to go to Worlds. Liza as well, but we knew that

 

[Fluture]

Those poor flutz people

Honestly the only quad I commented on was the one I linked. It’s perfect!!

Well, there is a certain appeal of skaters jumping with the correct technique. Toe pick assistance + minimal prerotation + correct edges + effortless landing make for a beautiful jump. I can understand that. I personally manage to see past that and prerotation and stuff like that only bothers me aesthetically when it‘s so extreme it‘s visible even without slowmotion. I don‘t have any problems with Sasha‘s “forward take off“ or whatever that is she‘s doing wrongly.

I‘m just concerned because it‘s obvious that she‘s a child, that she knows no fear and thus jumps quads any time she can. I have a brother at that age, I know how children can be. They‘re fearless, they want to learn and experience new things and they often don‘t know the consequences. That’s natural, they are children after all. And that’s why the adults in their life should be responsible and watch out for them and yes, limit them sometimes. Like, saying to Sasha: No quads in gala. That‘s it.

Her 4T is better than her 4Lz, that‘s for sure. And more consistent also. That‘s why it surprised me that she failed on the 4T after she landed the lutz better than she‘s ever done. I know you like Sasha. I think most of us do. But for me it‘s obvious that she‘s a child and she‘s acting her age. She doesn‘t know the consequences but they will inevitably come. How severe? Who knows. But at least the consequences can be minimized by not jumping quads when it‘s not necessary - like in galas. Or focus on solely one quad like Anna does. Most girls don‘t even land one quad, so why put the pressure on your hips to land 2 or even 3 when it‘s not necessary to win? Especially in her junior years? Yeah, history and everything but I don‘t think Sasha understands that making history now could lead to her body burning out in her second senior yesr due to all the pressure she put on her ankles and hips when she was 13.

 

[Sugar Coated]

Which Eteri juniors will be eligible for nationals next year? If there continues to be juniors upsetting seniors, including juniors who previously won nationals the year before, then there may be a problem. Because that would indicate age is a more important factor than talent. But for now I don’t see anyone upsetting the 3A in the next year or two.

However, do think it will be interesting to see if the 3A last until the Olympics or if some other younger girl upsets them all. That would also suggest to become an Olympic champion you must have been born in the right year (to be 15 or as young as possible). And that to me seems problematic.

People keep referring to professionals being scared of 12 - 14 year olds or girls with breasts. It isn’t about being scared of them or really about their “breasts.” It’s what lengths will athletes be pressured to go to prevent puberty if that’s the only way to stay competitive. Because if being national champion means you have to starve yourself (or even take drugs and hope they don’t get detected) to prevent puberty that’s a problem. These are young girls who may be damaging their bodies permanently due to pressures to win and if that’s the case then the sport should do its best to protect the athletes. But from my understanding, most girls have hit puberty by 15 even if they haven’t completed it. Maybe raising the age to 16 would help but maybe not. I really think it’s top early to tell and the success and longevity of the 3A will be an important factor.

 

[Fluture]

https://twitter.com/olyphil/status/1077188592945020929?s=19

Apparently Zhenya could have a chance to go to Worlds. Liza as well, but we knew that

Liza will go to Worlds. Zhenya... like I said, I don‘t think it will do her any good this year. And who should she replace? Liza and Alina are set. There‘s only Stasya left who was the first senior at Nationals. So probably if she fails at Euros, Zhenya could have a chance. But I doubt it. If they‘d wanted for Zhenya to go to Worlds; they would have sent her with Liza to Universiade to prove she‘s ready. Then Stasya and Zhenya would both have had a chance to show that they‘re ready. But they gave both to Stasya which leads me to believe that they want her alongside Liza and Alina at Worlds. Which is okay. Stasya was indeed the first senior at Nationals after all.

 

[Mawwerg]

If Konstantinova was russian champion, with the skate she had yesterday, this wouldn't be great too, because it was not a champion's skate."

I cannot remember when I was so agree with any Lakernik's statement.

 

[anna gabriela]

Firstly,

whole post

completely agree with all of this

Secondly, on the topic of quads, Eteri’s interview with Ted actually made me see things in a different light, when she mentioned that she doesn’t want her girls when they grow up to regret not doing quads while they still could. Obviously Anna and Sasha are still young and they may not have thought about it this closely, but without quads they would be just the same as the infinite number of talented Russian girls who can do triple-triples and my guess is that when they reached senior level, they would be good, but probably wouldn’t last long at the top anyway before the new kids arrive.

However by doing quads, they will be remembered forever, particularly Sasha who has numerous records and achievements to her name. Maybe they’ll get a bad injury and it will cut their career short, but come on how many Russian ladies (or even ladies in general) do we know whose successful senior career lasts more than a few years anyway. Perhaps Sasha and Anna would prefer to write their names in the history books now and maybe go on to have a successful career in something else than to have a slightly longer but much less impactful career in figure skating. To be honest I think I would prefer that as well.

 

[eaglehelang]

Matter of time?
Shcherbakova broke a leg last year already. And nope, it was not on a quad, but on a simple triple.

Add to that, break a hip. After watching the way Trusova fell at Junior GPF, I worry for her hips. When they fall, they just plop down hard. I hope somehow they learn how to land more safely or learn how to save the jump.
Then again, this comes with experience.

When the boys fall on a quad, like say Stephen Gogolev falls, it doesnt look so dangerous. They just slide & get back up.

 

[bubblecherry]

To me, raising the age limit is not the answer. That just says, we will not allow you to compete because you are too good and will obviously crush the ladies whose breasts we like, due to your natural advantage.

What an absolutely horrible thing to say. No matter what you think age limits should be, don't objectify these skaters.

 

[Sam L]

Why is Kostornaia lumped in with the quad duo? She doesn’t and has no plans to do quads? I can see her developing fully as a skater in all areas.

 

[LenaRadiFan]

I got to say, my issue isn't the age limit, even though I wouldn't complain if it would be raised to 16, but much rather that a lot of these Juniors have one or two dominating seasons and then they burn out. Just look at all the talent that Eteri has at her school, she doesn't need to look at longetivity with her skaters, because there will be a younger girl that will pick up the pieces if the other one starts to go into puperty. And that leads to that the age at international comps is 16-17 and that's just kind of ridicoulus to me.

Also the judging is HORRIBLY flawed because pcs shouldn't be affected by your reputation/technical strength(except ss)/consistency, the performance then and there should be the only thing that matters.

 

[SkateSkates]

Why is Kostornaia lumped in with the quad duo? She doesn’t and has no plans to do quads? I can see her developing fully as a skater in all areas.

I don’t know why she is being lumped in with them. I can’t help but wonder how different the narrative would have been had she not fallen in the short and won the whole event. I’m pretty sure the age limit discourse would have been “too bad she wasn’t born 2 months earlier” instead of age limit needs to be raised. Why are all these “experts” forgetting she was also on the podium last year? There was no outcry then.

 

[Tolstoj]

https://twitter.com/olyphil/status/1077188592945020929?s=19

Apparently Zhenya could have a chance to go to Worlds. Liza as well, but we knew that

https://media.giphy.com/media/1M9fmo1WAFVK0/giphy.gif

I like her, but RusFed has to be realistic: Evgenia is getting more and more inconsistent at each competition, and they even simplified the free program a lot, to the point where at Worlds against clean Rika, clean Alina and clean Liza she has maybe no chances of medalling.

Personally i think they'd do a favor by not sending her to Euros and Worlds (she can always go to Winter Universiade), and let her working on the programs and the jumps now for the next season.

 

[Fluture]

Honestly, most of the arguments are kinda... Well, "mature women's skating" is a sort of a FS meme in russian community at this point.

People say that the seniors get too much pressure. But... They will have to compete with Trusova and Shcherbakova and Kostornaia in less than a year. They have to compete with Kihira now. They HAVE TO be able to handle such pressure, because it is a sport, and there will always be one who skates better than you. If you can't handle, maybe you shouldn't even compete on this level, for your own good.

People say the juniors have an unfair advantage because they got slimmer bodies. But... All people are different. Tursynbayeva will have a "teenage boy's body" for her whole life, because that is her body type. Should she be banned from senior competitions because it is unfair for ladies with wider hips and larger breasts to compete against her? Same goes for quite a bunch of asian skaters. Sotskova and Tsurskaya are tall, which makes the whole skating thing harder. Should we ban skaters who are shorter than 1.65 from competition to make things fair? And so on and so forth. There is no way to make it fair.

People complain about artistry and maturity. Kostornaia, at 13-14, was skating with more artistry and maturity than most of the seniors we know. And honestly, some seniors we know are less artistic than Trusova, even, so what, maybe demote them to juniors? Artistry, like wisdom, do not always comes with age, sometimes age comes alone.

I think it‘s not only the physical component that gives an advantage to the younger girls but also the psychological factor that is different. Look at Sasha now. She is fearless because yes, she is a naturally brave person but also because she hasn‘t been given any reason not to be. I‘m actually close to Medvedeva‘s age so it‘s not long ago that I myself went from being the Alina of last year to the Alina of this year. And I can say that this one year of being either 15 or 16 does make a difference. Last year Alina was a child, both physically and mentally. A tough child of course and stronger than the average one but still. This year she‘s maturing right in front of the world and honestly, she‘s doing a better job than most teenagers would ever do. She‘s managing to stay a top level athlete despite going through all these changes. For me, it‘s not about “women‘s skating“ or “artistry“ or ”maturity“. A certain maturity always comes with age but artistry certainly doesn’t. Alena Kostornaya would beg to differ. But it‘s more the mentality, I’m thinking about. As soon as you get older you start to worry more, you have to listen to your body more. I can only say: Look at Alina. And I know that if I happened to be a sportswoman at the elite level I‘d find it insanely unfair to compete against the girl I was three/four years ago because that girl just didn‘t care and worry too much. Because she didn‘t have to. She could do whatever she wanted and her body would accept it because she was young. That girl thought the world belonged to her. It was a certain naivety that is normal for that age. But the older you get, the less this works.

But then again, is it fair to rob these girls of the chances of being at the high level competitions when it‘s easier for them, physically and mentally? I don‘t know and I don‘t think it‘s up to anyone to really decide. That‘s why I‘d be in favor of changing the judging system (or at least apply the one we have correctly) rather than keeping the young talents out of the senior ranks.

 

[vesperalvioletta]

Which Eteri juniors will be eligible for nationals next year? If there continues to be juniors upsetting seniors, including juniors who previously won nationals the year before, then there may be a problem. Because that would indicate age is a more important factor than talent. But for now I don’t see anyone upsetting the 3A in the next year or two.

However, do think it will be interesting to see if the 3A last until the Olympics or if some other younger girl upsets them all. That would also suggest to become an Olympic champion you must have been born in the right year (to be 15 or as young as possible). And that to me seems problematic.

People keep referring to professionals being scared of 12 - 14 year olds or girls with breasts. It isn’t about being scared of them or really about their “breasts.” It’s what lengths will athletes be pressured to go to prevent puberty if that’s the only way to stay competitive. Because if being national champion means you have to starve yourself (or even take drugs and hope they don’t get detected) to prevent puberty that’s a problem. These are young girls who may be damaging their bodies permanently due to pressures to win and if that’s the case then the sport should do its best to protect the athletes. But from my understanding, most girls have hit puberty by 15 even if they haven’t completed it. Maybe raising the age to 16 would help but maybe not. I really think it’s top early to tell and the success and longevity of the 3A will be an important factor.

I'm not sure how old Maya Kromykh is, but Usacheva and Valieva will both be too young to compete at Senior Nationals next year. If Eteri takes Ksenia Chistyakova, I think she'll be her only senior nationals eligible junior. Though there will always be exceptional juniors, I think the 3A were just an even bigger anomaly within that phenomenon. I don't expect to see three juniors sweeping Russian Nationals again for quite a while. I'm someone who thinks that the age cap should stay right where it is. I don't have anything against skaters younger than 14 competing, I just don't see the point.