2018-19 Russian Ladies' figure skating

[Edwin]

The whole Team Eteri vs Team Brian debate is a clash of different funding systems and many ignorant people that don't consider the circumstances of the unfamiliar team.

It's about state sponored sports/trainers vs athletes/parents that are able to pay themselves

Both have their up- and downsides and neither is 'better' per se.

Many athletes that never had (and will never have, sorry) big sucesses train at TCC for years and also *gasp* have private lessons with Brian Orser. Why? Because they pay. And why should they not be allowed to train at TCC if they finance it and are pleasant to be around? If skater X books time with specialist y for jumps/spins/choreo they will work with anyone individually and help with their individual problems: Zhenya's spins, Javi with his last minute prep for Europeans or 16 yo Z who just started working on her double jumps.

Russia has a different funding system.
Upside: many more small children and their parents can afford to start skating and later there is a bigger talent pool to chose from than - let's say Canada. Kids at Sambo pay very very little fees to train there - > Eteri can chose from the best talents.
They are financed by talking part of the prize money from their sucessful skaters and state funding (-> no sucessful skaters, no funding!) Team Tutberitze can chose from a lot of promising athletes, but they HAVE to be sucessful with their athletes to 'survive'. Will they have time to work many hours individually with every skater, especially ones that don't compete for top places at the moment? No, because they don't get paid for it. 16 yo Z with her doubles would never be accepted. You might not get kicked out for every injury (-> Shcherbakova) but skaters that turn out to be not so promising and have many 'problems' will get told to leave and try their luck elsewhere. This does not mean they can not find sucess (-> Alina, Daria Pavliuchenko @ Europeans this week)

Tursynbaeva's mother recently said they very much prefer Tutberitze, and they spent enough time with both teams.
On the other hand does anyone believe someone like Javier Fernandez would have been World Champion training with Team Eteri? Look at videos of him skating as a teen...

It's stupid to compare both because of their funding sytems - TCC can never produce as many top novices/juniors for Canada even if they do great work and at Sambo you can't expect Eteri to have 2h/day lessons with only one struggling student

True and well summarised.

Even though the Russian program is well funded by the Ministry of Sports and some corporate sponsors as a whole. Most rinks can use any extra money directly into their hands, because unfortunately, corruption is still around in the whole chain of finance with each layer of administration "taking their cut".

So when I noticed young Kamiliya Valiyeva in the Dec 29 Ingolstadt Gala (alongside Keegan Messing fresh from GP finals), her appearance is still confirmation that no skating or gymnastics event in Western Europe is complete without Russians (or Romanians previously in gymnastics) on the billboard advertisements and flyers. People are always eager to buy tickets just to watch the wonderful almost otherworldly young athletes from Russia, and Kamiliya didn't disappoint.
My guess is that Valiyeva and her trainer/chaperone were flown in on the morning just for this evening's single gala appearance, a night's stay in a comfy hotel and back to Moscow the following day.
Taking back with them a small 4 figure sum of endorsements (tax exempted when possible) and probably as much figure skating and medical purchases as their trunks could handle to stock up Sambo-70's supply of basic essentials or anything somebody else asked them to bring along.

 

[bobbob]

Eteri has single-handedly revolutionized Russian ladies figure skating for many, many years to come. Actually scrap that...she has revolutionized ladies figure skating, period.

 

[DSQ]

The big excitement is coming again this week. Three Russian girls will fight for podium. We are thinking with my wife if we shall fly to Minsk for the free skate only. I will check ticket availability.

The odds of a Russian sweep are high. I’m excited, fingers crossed that we see an NHK level of competition.

 

[plushyfan]

guess is that Valiyeva and her trainer/chaperone were flown in on the morning just for this evening's single gala appearance, a night's stay in a comfy hotel and back to Moscow the following day.
Taking back with them a small 4 figure sum of endorsements (tax exempted when possible) and probably as much figure skating and medical purchases as their trunks could handle to stock up Sambo-70's supply of basic essentials or anything somebody else asked them to bring along.

What do you want to say? Are the Russians tax fraudsters, and in Russia there are no medical purchases...? They are happy if they can go to the West and buy many things.....

 

[Edwin]

What do you want to say? Are the Russians tax fraudsters, and in Russia there are no medical purchases...? They are happy if they can go to the West and buy many things.....

None of the above. Non EU visitors can request a refund of the compulsory (substantial) income taxes levied on price money, appearance fees etc.

Of course Valiyeva c.s. are happy to travel and experience a nice gala event. It might even be beneficiary to help young skaters adapt to different circumstances, time schedules etc.
And they can do some shopping for supplies that are hard to come by or considerably more expensive in Moscow, as they can request a refund of German sales tax at customs upon leaving the EU. I doubt Russian customs will bother them declaring their valuables and goods upon entry of Russia.

 

[colormyworld240]

Well Eteri herself said it is a factory.



https://fs-gossips.com/eteri-tutberidze-during-the-work-pity-does-not-help/

This is two completely different arguments. You can read the rest of my comment to see what I’m saying. Eteri is saying it’s a factory as in the girls skills are a product of the coaching team. This is true (along with their natural talent as well). There is nothing wrong with saying it’s a factory in that sense. However, the absurd argument is that her factory only produces top girls to replace them later when they struggle. In what quote did eteri say this? They are are just outskated by someone better. What’s eteri to do - make them skate worse? You can discuss coaching issues like technique all you want. But I have never seen eteri actively replacing her skaters. She’s just not holding the others back.


And how do we know eteri doesn’t help her girls when they have issues? Actually her team and Alina have both spoken about adjusting her training with her body changes. But it’s no easy task and perhaps they can’t do it that quickly. Most skaters have issues with growth or injuries. Many leave eteri maybe due to competition in the group, maybe not. But even if that were the case, that’s not eteri replacing them. There is just a lot of talent in the group and as a whole in Russia. Not everyone can cope with that, and each skater is free to make their own decisions.

 

[Scott512]

Sure, if you ask: "do you want to be happy and healthy rather than unhappy and unhealthy?" On the other hand, if you ask: "do you want to be the best skater in the world if there is the price to pay such as reduced happinness and increased injuries?" the answer will be different depending on whom you ask.

Who says Eteri skaters are unhappy? Maybe those who win are happier than those who dont. This is how life works. when I worked at companies where I've done well I was happy and whenever I've struggled as a sales rep at a company I was unhappy. I'm sure it's the same in the sports world.

 

[[email protected]]

Who says Eteri skaters are unhappy? Maybe those who win are happier than those who dont. This is how lifee works.

The argument was that some girls in general and Zhenya in particular left Eteri because they were not happy. Another argument was that "Zhenya is happy now". My point of view is that being happy whatever it means (you are happy in the morning then you slip and fall on the street and suddenly you are unhappy) is not the key factor for top skaters' choices.

And we don't know if Zhenya is happy now or not. She says so, she smiles but is that for real? We don't know. But we shall know after some time passes.

 

[plushyfan]

None of the above. Non EU residents can request a refund of the compulsory (substantial) income taxes levied on price money, appearance fees etc.

Of course Valiyeva c.s. are happy to travel and experience a nice gala event. It might even be beneficiary to help young skaters adapt to different circumstances, time schedules etc.
And they can do some shopping for supplies that are hard to come by or considerably more expensive in Moscow, as they can request a refund of German sales tax at customs upon leaving the EU. I doubt Russian customs will bother them declaring their valuables and goods upon entry of Russia.

Where are the Russian posters? Well, what I see..in Moscow there is everything! everything from the West. From luxury items to branded goods maybe those are more expensive than in other cities but Moscow is one of the most expensive cities in the world. I don't think Valieva or other Russian skaters rush to shopping! Just as you or me in foreigne countries not worth mentioning.

 

[ankifeather]

At the cost? I would be glad to hear the statistic of other teams, the rate of injuries or other problems to number of skaters and I should say top skaters. Also, people often speak about how long skaters are with her. In fact, in comparison with others it is not some short time, Kim Yuna was with Orser for three years, since 2007 to 2010. And again, it causes no trouble giving him credit for Yuna's seccess during that era. But when it comes to Eteri, no "credit for skater XY's success should belong to her previous coach, not Eteri" and all. I don't think I'm the only one who consider this attitude very biased.

I personally bet that the message is clear: "Eteri, please, be kind and create only one top skater per 4 years like we others do. Creating more could be considered as being evil."

Interestingly I have seen the argument the other way round way more - that the technique of Yuzu and Yuna were from their former coach and they would have done equally well with any coach, hence its not the merit of Orser's, he is just lucky he got them, whereas Eteri brings her athletes from the ground up (despite the fact she trained Alena, Trusova etc for as long as Orser trained Yuna, and he had trained Yuzu & Javi 7-8 years, the majority of their senior life). I believe whichever coach was the coach of the skater when he/she won the gold should take the merit of the gold regardless of how long they have been training the skater or what age he/she came to the coach - in both the case of Eteri and Orser.

I personally don't think of Orser as some super nice coach who puts longevity and health of his skaters above everything (there are stuff in his biography that suggest otherwise), nor do I think Eteri's system is 'evil' - it is an application of survival of the fittest, a basic sporting principle, and I think the girls and their parents knew what they signed up to in Sambo-70.

I think there are other Russian coaches and authorities that want to paint her as evil out of jealousy, but a lot of these views are also coming from people with good feelings for her former students (when once upon a time Eteri was a goddess to them). She makes it hard for them to remember her with fondness when she shames every student that leaves her publicly (as someone already pointed out). There is no guarantee Eteri won't do it again when any of her current champions leave or retire, some of which have fans that completely supports her today. When that day comes, will she become 'evil' to them too is the question.

 

[Edwin]

Who says Eteri skaters are unhappy? Maybe those who win are happier than those who dont. This is how lifee works.

I don't think winning by itself counts as the measure of happiness in an athlete. Athletes are rational people thinking "today I was the best, tomorrow I can fall and somebody else will come out on top instead of me".
Athletes all respect each other and give them their success in the competition.
Athletes all have normal lapses in motivation or moments of despair. When certain elements seem harder to master than expected, when a small pain won't go away, when you're having your period at a wrong moment in time, etc. etc.

Doing your daily routines just a little better every day, having good skates in front of and positive comments from your trainers, a little banter with your friends and that feeling of camaraderie despite being 'competitors' for the few high profile assignments, all these are aspects good trainers will foster in their school. For in a positive atmosphere, everybody benefits.

When on assignment, the thrill of performing a good skate in front of an exciting audience, with equally good rewards from the judges, praise from your trainer, should be rewarding enough by themselves.

I don't think kids like the 3A's really should need to worry about 'earning' price money to sustain your rink, or being a pawn in some political game of power fought over their heads.

Overall, the good moments and benefits should far outweigh the bad moments and sacrifices.

 

[j00mla]

My guess is that Valiyeva and her trainer/chaperone were flown in on the morning just for this evening's single gala appearance, a night's stay in a comfy hotel and back to Moscow the following day.
Taking back with them a small 4 figure sum of endorsements (tax exempted when possible) and probably as much figure skating and medical purchases as their trunks could handle to stock up Sambo-70's supply of basic essentials or anything somebody else asked them to bring along.

I honestly tried to find in these words logic and common sense, but not managed to

 

[Sugar Coated]

This is two completely different arguments. You can read the rest of my comment to see what I’m saying. Eteri is saying it’s a factory as in the girls skills are a product of the coaching team. This is true (along with their natural talent as well). There is nothing wrong with saying it’s a factory in that sense. However, the absurd argument is that her factory only produces top girls to replace them later when they struggle. In what quote did eteri say this? They are are just outskated by someone better. What’s eteri to do - make them skate worse? You can discuss coaching issues like technique all you want. But I have never seen eteri actively replacing her skaters. She’s just not holding the others back.


And how do we know eteri doesn’t help her girls when they have issues? Actually her team and Alina have both spoken about adjusting her training with her body changes. But it’s no easy task and perhaps they can’t do it that quickly. Most skaters have issues with growth or injuries. Many leave eteri maybe due to competition in the group, maybe not. But even if that were the case, that’s not eteri replacing them. There is just a lot of talent in the group and as a whole in Russia. Not everyone can cope with that, and each skater is free to make their own decisions.

But this model suggests that Eteri is not the one necessarily responsible for the girl's success, its the coaches who are training the younger girls. Her athletes are constantly replaced by someone younger. She is able to recruit the top talent to her, the product of other coaches around the country, and leads them to success for about 2 years until they are replaced by a younger talent following the same model.

 

[flanker]

The whole post...

So, trying to be as brief as possible, I dare to sum the whole post into stating that the dislike with Eteri's methods comes primarily from the state of those who are leaving her and how, in your opinion, she threats her students at some occations (when they are injured or when they leave her). You have cited some examples when Eteri persuaded some students to compete even when they weren't fit completely. You also think that she doesn't care properly for those who have some troubles, provides them one or two succesful seasons and then nothing more. I hope I'm right and didn't miss anything.

As for the matter of "forcing" her students to compete despite their health. First of all, that's what we see all the time. I can just mention most recent and known example of Yuzu during Rostelecom. Second, yes, there are definitely cases when Eteri debates with her students whether they would skate or not being in particular condition (which, I bet, is discussion that takes place at any coaching team in figure skating at some occation, not to mention any other sport branch), but if sometimes she evaluates the situation the way that skater should skate, there are other examples, when she persuaded the skater otherwise. Again, just most recent example we know, Alina during GP final, where Eteri considered withdrawal and it was Alina who insisted in continuing with her FS - and we should remember that we definitely know every such conversation, this particular thing we heard from other sources, Samro only later confirmed it when there was talk abnout it. So, if Ted wouldn't see Alina fall over the cable, we wouldn't probably know anything real about it. We somehow live in a state we judge just by scrap of information believing we know everything necessary for making a judgement. Therefore, I'm concluding this part by stating that we know examples of both attitude, I guess Eteri is well aware of their student's health conditions and she decides whether she would let (or recommend) them to skate or not based on her judgement of the particular situation.

As for the ability to support her students when they have troubles, it is a question what exactly it should be in the eyes of those who raise such objection, because, just like I've written in my previous comment, I saw her providing care of her skaters in different way, and the case of Zhenya's broken bone is good example. She gave her time and all, everybody knows the case, not necessary to repeat. And I repeat, many people balmed her then that she cares too much about Zhenya at the expense of Alina in that time and now they reproach her just the opposite, that she doesn't provide necessary support for those who have troubles. I don't think there is win/win situation for Eteri, when it comes to public opinion (or part of it) because either people were blaming her for preferring Zhneya or preferring the new skaters (like Alina). But how one of the later users written, I don't think Eteri would somehow intentionally made them weaker, that is just nonsence, just don't hold the youngsters back. As for her methods, yes, they definitely don't work for everyone, which is completely normal and I in no way see that as her fault, because that is the same everywhere. When we speak about the duration of one or more seasons, well, again, with Zhenya I count it as four very succesful seasons, since 2014-2015 to 2017-2018, because I see OG silver as huge success, who would disagree Alina, she had two very succesful seasons, the third season is yet the most succesful post-olympic season of any OG winner since 1984, with just one bad program (and with only two falls during the whole season, who can say that about himself). As for the others, there were at least two seasons, sometimes there was some wound that prevented more succes, but again, that's what happens everywhere and it was used as an argument in different discussion that e. g. Kaetlyn's career before 2016-2017 season wasn't more succesful only because of her injuries. But it is OK. It is not OK only when Eteri's student is injured, it seems One could object that with other teams even after injury skater could achieve other successes when he/she was recovered, but that happened with Eteri's students also. If we ommit omnipresent Zhenya, we can name Anna. That's why I say that saying generally Eteri can't take proper care for students when they struggle is simply not true. Yes, it doesn't work everytime, as everything doesn't work anywhere else either.

As for the speaking about the leaving students, it is portrayed as some continual uninterrupted avalanche of negative comments day by day from Eteri's side about every single skater that changed team or ended career, which simply is not true. If she is asked, she speaks what she thinks. That's how it works. Also, here again applies what I've written above, that we really know only a fraction of information. Some people are convinced she is unjust, because they instantly believe the exact opposite, but that's not how one should perceive reality, by his own filter made of subjective opinion. While I still didn't hear her saying anything that could be called bad about Anastasia or Darya (at least I don't remember, only Daniil said something, that, to be honest I did not understand what he meant by it). So, those statements made by Eteri either express her opinion when she is asked, which is based on much deeper knowledge than we have (yet many people think they know more) or are not present at all. And, while I don't need to agree with everything, I'm aware that I was not there, also I'm neither the coach or athlete, so I honestly disagree with advicing the professional from non-proffesional.

As for the case of jealousy, yes, I'm strongly persuaded there is jealousy towards Eteri and her team, both nationally and internationally, and I see it in some comments through all the public sphere.

As you have written, anything is only black or white, yet if I would evaluate the situation only from comments (incl. yours), I would probably see it exacly that way Just to make it clear, I don't consider Eteri being saint, but it is really hard to find that 10 % of justified objections towards her (because, nobody is infallible, incl. her) behind some 90 % of waste rock.

BTW, I've promised to be brief, but I didn't fulfill that at all.

 

[flanker]

I think there are other Russian coaches and authorities that want to paint her as evil out of jealousy, but a lot of these views are also coming from people with good feelings for her former students (when once upon a time Eteri was a goddess to them). She makes it hard for them to remember her with fondness when she shames every student that leaves her publicly (as someone already pointed out). There is no guarantee Eteri won't do it again when any of her current champions leave or retire, some of which have fans that completely supports her today. When that day comes, will she become 'evil' to them too is the question.

As I've written above, it is definitely not "every student", also, it is not like she would arrange special press conferences every day just to say something bad about Yulia/Polina/Evgenia. Also, in fact none of her students said bad things about her coaching and all, as some people proposed (e. g. to Zhenya, that she should "reveal Eteri's vile methods publicly" or something like that). Also, she posted those pictures of Yulia and some others in obviously good will, but even that some people condemned. As for Evgenia, remember that to some not too smart journalist question (he obvilously expected some sensation) she she quietly answered that Zhenya is two time world champion.

 

[LoveSkater]

Strange an ugly hype about Shabotova.
13-year-old figure skater Anastasia Shabotova, who trains at the Snow Leopards Club in Moscow, said on air on instagram that dope should be used for stable performances in figure skating.

“How to perform consistently? Drink a lot of dope - and perform consistently. That's all. Only it is necessary to drink the right dope.

In the "Crystal" drink or do not drink? Of course they drink, ”said Shabotova.
https://www.sports.ru/figure-skating/1070789037.html (in Russian) . Feel sorry for this young girl. Now Rusada and Sports ministry will take actions because joke in instagram

 

[plushyfan]

Strange an ugly hype about Shabotova.
13-year-old figure skater Anastasia Shabotova, who trains at the Snow Leopards Club in Moscow, said on air on instagram that dope should be used for stable performances in figure skating.

“How to perform consistently? Drink a lot of dope - and perform consistently. That's all. Only it is necessary to drink the right dope.

In the "Crystal" drink or do not drink? Of course they drink, ”said Shabotova.
https://www.sports.ru/figure-skating/1070789037.html (in Russian) . Feel sorry for this young girl. Now Rusada and Sports ministry will take actions because joke in instagram

Unfortunately it's a bad joke after the doping scandal. But I hope she won't be punished hardly. She is too young to use the social media.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bs5szhVhDtp/ her IG was closed but they opened it. Her message

 

[Edwin]

These are the dangers of kids doing live streams on social media that get screen recorded.

RUSADA already jumping on her: https://www.sports.ru/figure-skating/1070799668.html

Nothing too severe apparently at this stage, a serious warning for starters.
She might have been provoked by suggestive questions put to her in the stream, etc. etc. according to Svetlana Panova, her trainer: https://www.sports.ru/figure-skating/1070800382.html

She is already excusing herself for her silliness, poor kid: https://www.sports.ru/figure-skating/1070807068.html original: https://www.instagram.com/p/Bs5szhVhDtp/

Some nasty comments were made though like "this girl is not OK in the head" etc etc.

Is she eligible for Jnr Nationals? This live stream might cost her her start as a disciplinary punishment.
But let's hope it will all fizzle out and be taken as a lesson for all the young skaters on how to behave in live streams and always be on alert for trick questions from the "fans".

Nastya here has learned an important lesson the hard way.

 

[Orlov]

Strange an ugly hype about Shabotova.
13-year-old figure skater Anastasia Shabotova, who trains at the Snow Leopards Club in Moscow, said on air on instagram that dope should be used for stable performances in figure skating.

“How to perform consistently? Drink a lot of dope - and perform consistently. That's all. Only it is necessary to drink the right dope.

In the "Crystal" drink or do not drink? Of course they drink, ”said Shabotova.
https://www.sports.ru/figure-skating/1070789037.html (in Russian) . Feel sorry for this young girl. Now Rusada and Sports ministry will take actions because joke in instagram

Oh God, not here - this hysterical hype-stupidity enough for me on our Russian-language sites.

 

[colormyworld240]

But this model suggests that Eteri is not the one necessarily responsible for the girl's success, its the coaches who are training the younger girls. Her athletes are constantly replaced by someone younger. She is able to recruit the top talent to her, the product of other coaches around the country, and leads them to success for about 2 years until they are replaced by a younger talent following the same model.

But these girls were not successful before eteri. It could just be that the older skaters will inevitably struggle at some point in their career while there are many others who are ready to take their spot should that happen. Or that the 3Ad are just incredible talent. Either way, the only thing that is certain is that these things don’t have anything to do with eteri dumping her skaters like many sugges with their factory argument.