2018-19 U.S. Ladies' figure skating

[3dsushi]

Yes, I am enjoying the Japanese skaters this year, I love them all. I'd just like some inside opinion as to what's going on in American Ladies. Bradie is fine, but we used to have it and now we don't. It's like we are stuck in a rut. Slute and Kwan were neck and neck for years. And at the same time we had Cohen, who I was not personally a fan of, but she brought it. And Hughes for the gold. Before that we had Yamaguchi battling it with other Americans. Hey, I'm glad for the rise of other country's skaters, but I'd like us to be in it too, and we aren't. Of course, we are in Ice Dance now, which we never were, and Russia, former ice dance power house is in the dust. Maybe it's just the cycle. I just can't remember a time when we were this out of it in Ladies.

With all having said and done I think it all boils down to one thing, the IJS. I just think that US ladies still can't adapt to the new Judging System. I think the IJS is just too difficult for them. Before, the 6.0 system is much easier to understand. But I'm still hoping for the future and Alysa Liu could be the one.

 

[VenusHalley]

I think people are too harsh about Starr. Sure she wad a mess at this GP, but she has skated well in the past. I think she can do it still.... i was actually surprised how weak she skated here.

 

[katymay]

Believe it or not, figure skating was even more expensive 'back in the day' when I was skating, as we had to pay for separate skates for figures, and expensive ice time for figures. Today though, it is hard to find an ice rink that isn't devoted to hockey (a money maker for most rinks), and the high cost is of course a factor. And that rink often requires a long commute, and often it is twice a day.
-"learn to skate" and the progression after is slow and discouraging.
- Once you reach the level where you are competing in regionals/sectionals, it is like the USFSA purposely schedules all competitions so that you miss the maximum amount of school. In my day, there really were not a proliferation of 'online' schools, and even if there had been, this would have not been acceptable to my parents. As a parent, it would not be acceptable to me.
-For the majority of figure skaters, there is no end of the road payoff. No stack of college recruitment letters.
- Even if you reach the top, you can be denied the top award due to politics or the grudge of a judge. This has gotten better since my day, but it still exists.
-Unlike my day, there are a multitude of sports for women, and all most all of them have a better long term payoff for the athlete than figure skating Crew, fencing, swimming, gymnastics, soccer, lacrosse, skiing, tennis, competitive dance etc.
Even if one of my children was a budding Trusova, and even if the skating rink was five minutes away, and it didn't cost a fortune, I would not put my kids in figure skating. It is just not worth the sacrifice, time or money, and all those things are better dedicated to a sport where there is an actual payoff down the road. (rant over)

 

[concorde]

Believe it or not, figure skating was even more expensive 'back in the day' when I was skating, as we had to pay for separate skates for figures, and expensive ice time for figures. Today though, it is hard to find an ice rink that isn't devoted to hockey (a money maker for most rinks), and the high cost is of course a factor. And that rink often requires a long commute, and often it is twice a day.
-"learn to skate" and the progression after is slow and discouraging.
- Once you reach the level where you are competing in regionals/sectionals, it is like the USFSA purposely schedules all competitions so that you miss the maximum amount of school. In my day, there really were not a proliferation of 'online' schools, and even if there had been, this would have not been acceptable to my parents. As a parent, it would not be acceptable to me.
-For the majority of figure skaters, there is no end of the road payoff. No stack of college recruitment letters.
- Even if you reach the top, you can be denied the top award due to politics or the grudge of a judge. This has gotten better since my day, but it still exists.
-Unlike my day, there are a multitude of sports for women, and all most all of them have a better long term payoff for the athlete than figure skating Crew, fencing, swimming, gymnastics, soccer, lacrosse, skiing, tennis, competitive dance etc.
Even if one of my children was a budding Trusova, and even if the skating rink was five minutes away, and it didn't cost a fortune, I would not put my kids in figure skating. It is just not worth the sacrifice, time or money, and all those things are better dedicated to a sport where there is an actual payoff down the road. (rant over)

What happens if the only sport your child wants to do is ice skate? Would you deny them the opportunity?

As a parent, you can promote different options but in the end, you have to listen to what your child tells you their interests are. Little girls love everything about ice skating so they get sucked into it. Unknowing parents allow it thinking it will be only a couple of LTS classes and then the kid will lose interest. That is how the ice skating pipeline is created.

 

[macy]

On her Instagram story she said that she’s on the ice working on a new short program and is asking for music suggestions.

i just went back and listened, to me it sounded like she said show program. show and short are too close to tell! hoping its a short... :luv17:

 

[macy]

also going back to regionals, it's pretty interesting to see how skaters potential scores and technical skills have progressed in the last 10 years...10 years ago you would see most top intermediate ladies FS scores in my region (EGL) between 40 and 50, hardly ever higher than that. most girls did 2A and 3S as their hardest elements. now, you see the top skaters scoring 90+ with all triples in their programs. even juvenile skaters are scoring close to that.

 

[Chris_E]

i just went back and listened, to me it sounded like she said show program. show and short are too close to tell! hoping its a short... :luv17:

Pretty sure she said "show" program and was asking for ideas on a 2nd one.

 

[Bluediamonds09]

Does anyone know if Leah Keiser is still competing?

Also, Mariah and Starr, good luck this weekend!!!

 

[Princessroja]

I think American singles' decline is partyly due to money and partly due to culture. If you were a parent who isn't a huge skating fan, why would you put your kid in skating over other sports? It's tremendously expensive and a relatively isolated sport. Parents put their kids in sports to make friends while doing something active, and skating is so much more insular than gymnastics, base/softball, football, track & field, and gynmastics. Sure, you make friends at the rink, but there's not that team camaraderie you get elsewhere. Plus, unlike most other sports in the US, there isn't the potential for college scholarships through it. Japan is throwing so much money at skating, training so much young talent, and the Russians have their state-funded sports schools where parents line up at the door to try out their kids. Yes, the Americans falling from the top of the field is upsetting. But honestly, if I had kids I wouldn't put them in skating either, so who I am to judge?

My parents wouldn't let me even start skating for that reason, even though I wanted to. And we weren't poor either; they were able to keep me in serious pre-pro ballet training and send me off to college. And still, skating was too expensive for them.

 

[jenaj]

I don't think cost is the problem. Few top US ladies have come from affluent backgrounds. I think the problem is finding talent and developing it at an early age. The US is one of the most populous countries in the world. There is no reason why there should be fewer talented skaters here than in, say, Japan. There should be scholarships for young skaters who show promise. There should also be summer programs with top coaches for talented kids to attend--and money provided for those who need it. (One problem, of course, is that so many mothers work and cannot take off a month or more to go with their daughter to a different location. I know that in gymnastics, some young girls have been sent to live with another family while training. That is very difficult but maybe it needs to happen.)

 

[jenaj]

With all having said and done I think it all boils down to one thing, the IJS. I just think that US ladies still can't adapt to the new Judging System. I think the IJS is just too difficult for them. Before, the 6.0 system is much easier to understand. But I'm still hoping for the future and Alysa Liu could be the one.

I don't agree with this. There is no inherent reason why US ladies skaters can't adapt to the IJS. The men have. And for ten years, US ladies have, too. Their problems have been technical and mental, not an inability to construct and skate an IJS program.

 

[century2009]

Looking at Bradie's SP, why didnt she put the combo on the other jump?

She knew she had a bad landing on the Lutz. Why didnt she stick it on her other 2nd jump?

 

[Spirals for Miles]

Because switching from 3Lz-3Lo to 3F-3Lo than it is to switch a 3Lz-3T to a 3F-3T

 

[andromache]

What happens if the only sport your child wants to do is ice skate? Would you deny them the opportunity?

As a parent, you can promote different options but in the end, you have to listen to what your child tells you their interests are. Little girls love everything about ice skating so they get sucked into it. Unknowing parents allow it thinking it will be only a couple of LTS classes and then the kid will lose interest. That is how the ice skating pipeline is created.

It would be very financially irresponsible to put your child into skating if you have to go into debt to do so. There are sacrifices that you can make to make it work, but those sacrifices just aren't possible or realistic for every family. And that's okay!

I don't think cost is the problem. Few top US ladies have come from affluent backgrounds. I think the problem is finding talent and developing it at an early age. The US is one of the most populous countries in the world. There is no reason why there should be fewer talented skaters here than in, say, Japan. There should be scholarships for young skaters who show promise. There should also be summer programs with top coaches for talented kids to attend--and money provided for those who need it. (One problem, of course, is that so many mothers work and cannot take off a month or more to go with their daughter to a different location. I know that in gymnastics, some young girls have been sent to live with another family while training. That is very difficult but maybe it needs to happen.)

Maybe they don't come from "affluent" backgrounds, but I think the vast majority come from families with above-average/above-median incomes. The average household income for a US family is $59,039 (in 2016). How far that money goes all depends on cost of living, etc., - but let's also remember that the best places for pursuing skating are also pretty high cost-of-living places. Maybe US ice dance has been able to do so well in part because Detroit, which has been the center of US ice dance for over a decade, is low cost of living? Just an interesting observation I only now realized.

I think the men have been more successful than ladies because they are able to develop more slowly to get to the top. They don't have to make skating a full-time pursuit at so early of an age as the ladies do to be successful. I think American parents are more likely to "invest" in their promising preteen than their promising 8-year old.

And I really, really don't think we should emulate gymnastics. Sending kids away from their parents probably makes them more likely to be targets of abuse.

 

[Globetrotter]

I think people are too harsh about Starr. Sure she wad a mess at this GP, but she has skated well in the past. I think she can do it still.... i was actually surprised how weak she skated here.

Starr Andrews loves performing, she has the talent for that no doubt. Her weaknesses are primarily the basics - poor SS, mediocre edges, iffy lutz. Footwork needs some polish. These can be fixed with practice but my concern is more mental, that she didn’t even seem to be be out there, something highly unusual. Let’s hope this was just a one off crap day at work.

 

[concorde]

It would be very financially irresponsible to put your child into skating if you have to go into debt to do so. There are sacrifices that you can make to make it work, but those sacrifices just aren't possible or realistic for every family. And that's okay

I don't think most parents realize what they could be getting themselves into when they sign up their kiddo for a 8-week class at the county/city skating complex. An 8-week ice skating class is comparable in price to an 8-week swimming class (actually cheaper since ice skating includes some practice ice in the class fee and rentals are also included!).

Do that a session or two and then you add a group holiday show (still inexpensive). Then you increase classes from once to twice a week. Then summer rolls around and there are ice skating camps.

My point here, that one cheap and easy class slowly sucks in the family and the expenses gradually go up. It is not like from day one you are being hit with a huge bill.

What parent is gonna say 'no' to that one beginner ice skating class? How much harm is it gonna cause? Hence the saga begins.

 

[century2009]

Because switching from 3Lz-3Lo to 3F-3Lo than it is to switch a 3Lz-3T to a 3F-3T

So, she could do 3F-3T to save the combo.

Does she not have the experience to know how to do this?

For example, Nathan had a bad landing on the flip so he put the combo on the lutz.

 

[kwanatic]

Yes, i was more speaking in general cause Tara kept saying the whole event that Bradie was expected to win here, how consistent she is... and yes i think she had a chance of winning here before the SP, after Autumn Classics she could have kept the momentum and bring a new PB here, so in that sense it is slightly disappointing, but i think clearly the difficulty of the combos, especially the 3ltz-3lo makes her a little less consistent.

Whether she should keep it or going back to the Lutz-toe we will see at the end of the season, how many times she has nailed it in competition.

I feel like T&J were pushing the narrative that Bradie was expected to win this event, but I feel like it was a very tall order for Bradie. I'm trying to recall if Bradie has ever beaten Satoko or Kaori in competition...I don't think she has. When Satoko has UR issues she's beatable, but when she's on she's top 3 or 4 in the world. Kaori has more international clout with the judges thanks to a full GP season last year and an international title under her belt (4CC). In order to win this Bradie would have to be perfect and she'd need some help from Satoko and Kaori.

The UR issues really took her out of the running. I figured she'd hold up for bronze but who would have thought Sophia would knock both of her programs out of the park. I think she definitely deserved her bronze medal. Bradie just came up short. I feel bad for her--T&J talking about how she's expected to win and then she doesn't even medal. I hope Bradie stays strong, gets back to work and has a better outing at her next event.

They need to address the UR issues because they don't seem like a one-off kind of thing for her. She's consistently getting hit with them. Maybe she needs to rethink her jump content/layout. Find a way to maximize her points and her cleanliness.

With all having said and done I think it all boils down to one thing, the IJS. I just think that US ladies still can't adapt to the new Judging System. I think the IJS is just too difficult for them. Before, the 6.0 system is much easier to understand. But I'm still hoping for the future and Alysa Liu could be the one.

I disagree with this. Despite the fact the commentators continue to refer to it as the "new" judging system, the system is not remotely new. Skaters have been learning to compete under IJS since, what?, 2003 or 2004. The system is not new. It changes every year and the US coaches/skaters have just as much time to adjust to the changes as everyone else does. I don't think this is a valid excuse.

I think it comes down to the investment in the sport in the US versus other countries. State funded programs are going to have better results than programs that basically have skaters "go it alone" so to speak. Next to other countries the funding provided to US skaters is quite minimal. A skater who spends half of their day on the ice training versus a skater who spends one or two hours is going to have better results. Plain and simple. Russia and Japan have a better system in place for their skaters to succeed. The visibility is there in the general media. The sport is popular in those countries--regular television segments, interviews, reports, shows, etc. We know that's not the case in the US. People only care about skating for about 2 months every 4 years here. For that reason it lacks the sponsors and support that other countries are able get for their programs.

Less attention, less funding, fewer sponsors, high cost, few opportunities outside of the sport...I feel like all of this and more contributes to it.

Looking at Bradie's SP, why didnt she put the combo on the other jump?

She knew she had a bad landing on the Lutz. Why didnt she stick it on her other 2nd jump?

She'd already done a combination. Even though it was popped, the single loop in her combo counted as a second jump. She couldn't add another onto the solo jump. That was a critical mistake that she can't make if she wants a shot at the podium.

 

[concorde]

also going back to regionals, it's pretty interesting to see how skaters potential scores and technical skills have progressed in the last 10 years...10 years ago you would see most top intermediate ladies FS scores in my region (EGL) between 40 and 50, hardly ever higher than that. most girls did 2A and 3S as their hardest elements. now, you see the top skaters scoring 90+ with all triples in their programs. even juvenile skaters are scoring close to that.

It's not an apples to apples comparison. Now skaters get bonus points and falls get 1/2 point deduction whereas back then, falls got a full point deduction

I agree that ladies are trying harder elements at younger ages and many are succeeding. But there are still ALOT of underrotations and PCS seems to still rule over technical on the lower levels (novice and below).

You can make a technical skater prettier. It is much harder to make an underrotated jumper fully rotated.

 

[mrrice]

Looking at Bradie's SP, why didnt she put the combo on the other jump?

She knew she had a bad landing on the Lutz. Why didnt she stick it on her other 2nd jump?

She can only "Attempt" 1 combo in the SP. She singled her loop and that was the only Combo she's allowed in the SP. I believe even a "Pop" counts as an attempt. Someone else can correct me if this is wrong.