2018-19 U.S. Ladies' figure skating

[drivingmissdaisy]

She can only "Attempt" 1 combo in the SP. She singled her loop and that was the only Combo she's allowed in the SP. I believe even a "Pop" counts as an attempt, I believe. Someone else can correct if this is wrong.

Yes, had she not added the 1Lo onto the 3Lz she could have attempted a combo later.

 

[Ducky]

I don't think most parents realize what they could be getting themselves into when they sign up their kiddo for a 8-week class at the county/city skating complex. An 8-week ice skating class is comparable in price to an 8-week swimming class (actually cheaper since ice skating includes some practice ice in the class fee and rentals are also included!).

Do that a session or two and then you add a group holiday show (still inexpensive). Then you increase classes from once to twice a week. Then summer rolls around and there are ice skating camps.

My point here, that one cheap and easy class slowly sucks in the family and the expenses gradually go up. It is not like from day one you are being hit with a huge bill.

What parent is gonna say 'no' to that one beginner ice skating class? How much harm is it gonna cause? Hence the saga begins.

But most sports are like that especially if you advance to a significant level. Take swimming: at first it seems inexpensive, but if your child is really serious and has talent their going to need more than the rec league run by your community center or the intramural league at your school. They would have to join a private club, enter swim tournaments, get coaching, go to special training camps during the summer. Idk, it seems as if all youth sports have been privatized in such a way that in order to be truly competitive everyone is being funneled into really specialized and expensive programs.

 

[mrrice]

But most sports are like that especially if you advance to a significant level. Take swimming: at first it seems inexpensive, but if your child is really serious and has talent their going to need more than the rec league run by your community center or the intramural league at your school. They would have to join a private club, enter swim tournaments, get coaching, go to special training camps during the summer. Idk, it seems as if all youth sports have been privatized in such a way that in order to be truly competitive everyone is being funneled into really specialized and expensive programs.

This is true of Dance as well. You can take group classes for a relatively cheap price. However, if you plan to compete as a soloist, you have to hire a choreographer, buy costumes, and pay for travel, lodging, and entry fees. It definitely adds up. It also begins to take time away from school. The more advance you get, the more expensive and time consuming it becomes.

 

[andromache]

But most sports are like that especially if you advance to a significant level. Take swimming: at first it seems inexpensive, but if your child is really serious and has talent their going to need more than the rec league run by your community center or the intramural league at your school. They would have to join a private club, enter swim tournaments, get coaching, go to special training camps during the summer. Idk, it seems as if all youth sports have been privatized in such a way that in order to be truly competitive everyone is being funneled into really specialized and expensive programs.

Very talented kids in lucrative sports are the exception to this, as far as I can tell. Basketball and football are the big ones, though I imagine there are other sports that will give kids funding to attend and compete on behalf of the middle school/high school.

 

[concorde]

But most sports are like that especially if you advance to a significant level. Take swimming: at first it seems inexpensive, but if your child is really serious and has talent their going to need more than the rec league run by your community center or the intramural league at your school. They would have to join a private club, enter swim tournaments, get coaching, go to special training camps during the summer. Idk, it seems as if all youth sports have been privatized in such a way that in order to be truly competitive everyone is being funneled into really specialized and expensive programs.

Exactly! When most parents sign up a kid for an initial class, they are not thinking about potential long term ramifications.

My response was to the poster who commented they would never let their child take ice skating classes because they did not want any financial hardships. My point was you sign the kid up and only later will you guage their talent level. Who knows - maybe it will be a battle to even get the child to complete that 8-week beginner class.

 

[Ross74]

This is true of Dance as well. You can take group classes for a relatively cheap price. However, if you plan to compete as a soloist, you have to hire a choreographer, buy costumes, and pay for travel and entry fees. It definitely adds up. It also begins to take time away from school. The more advance you get, the more expensive and time consuming it becomes.

True. I never told my husband how much our daughter's custom-made dance costumes cost. And for us, there was travel almost every weekend that involved a hotel stay.

In the area where we raised our kids, there were at least 4 ice rinks within a 45-min drive, one only 10 minutes from our house, but we never knew anyone who did ice skating as an activity. There were group skates for scouting and church groups that my kids participated in, but nobody we knew took lessons, and money was not an issue for most. If any of mine had asked to take skating lessons, I would have gladly taken them, but there was no interest at all, in spite of the phase my one son went through when he wanted to "be" Scott Hamilton. They wanted to do what their friends were doing, and for my daughter that meant dance, gymnastics or children's theater.

 

[Bluediamonds09]

Is there a different thread for this?


Also wondering if there’s anything new with our US ladies?

 

[concorde]

Starr and Mariah have SC this weekend and that appears to be a strong field.

Starr had a rough SA and she doesn't even get a full week off. I am more optimistic about Mariah.

 

[mrrice]

Very talented kids in lucrative sports are the exception to this, as far as I can tell. Basketball and football are the big ones, though I imagine there are other sports that will give kids funding to attend and compete on behalf of the middle school/high school.

When I was in High School, we Washed Cars, Sold Chocolate Bars, and we even had a Dance A Thon to raise money for the season. It was mandatory to participate, even if your parents had money.

 

[jenaj]

It would be very financially irresponsible to put your child into skating if you have to go into debt to do so. There are sacrifices that you can make to make it work, but those sacrifices just aren't possible or realistic for every family. And that's okay!



Maybe they don't come from "affluent" backgrounds, but I think the vast majority come from families with above-average/above-median incomes. The average household income for a US family is $59,039 (in 2016). How far that money goes all depends on cost of living, etc., - but let's also remember that the best places for pursuing skating are also pretty high cost-of-living places. Maybe US ice dance has been able to do so well in part because Detroit, which has been the center of US ice dance for over a decade, is low cost of living? Just an interesting observation I only now realized.

I think the men have been more successful than ladies because they are able to develop more slowly to get to the top. They don't have to make skating a full-time pursuit at so early of an age as the ladies do to be successful. I think American parents are more likely to "invest" in their promising preteen than their promising 8-year old.

And I really, really don't think we should emulate gymnastics. Sending kids away from their parents probably makes them more likely to be targets of abuse.

I'm not saying we should. But identifying, and getting better training for, talented skaters at a younger age needs to happen. Kids go to summer camp away from their parents at a fairly young age. Why can't a summer program be created for talented young skaters? And I think if talented skaters of "average income" in the past have succeeded, others can, too. But there also needs to be some targeted funding of young skaters with potential.

 

[jenaj]

Is there a different thread for this?


Also wondering if there’s anything new with our US ladies?

What's new (or maybe not so new) is that the situation is rather dire.

 

[andromache]

When I was in High School, we washed Cars, Sold Chocolate Bars, and we even had a Dance A Thon to raise money for the season. It was mandatory to participate, even if your parents had money.

It's good to make it mandatory so it doesn't isolate the poor kids!

But I'm thinking more along the lines of low-income middle school and high school students who show great promise at football or basketball, and so they get a private school scholarship. Or again, talented middle school/high school students who are recruited to attend a specific public school district (a rich one) specifically due to their sports talent. (Interesting article here https://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/26/...gh-schools-fight-for-basketball-recruits.html)

Of course, the recruitment of such young players is an imperfect science. A boy who is a burly 6-2 in eighth grade can be a dominant center. But if he stops growing, he could might end up sitting on the bench for most of his high school career .Edwards said that when he coached at O’Connell, he spent hundreds of hours recruiting a guard once considered among the top middle school players in the nation. The player enrolled at O’Connell but transferred last winter midway through his junior season after his playing time decreased significantly. What happened?

“He peaked,” Edwards said, “as an eighth grader.”

I came across this quote and it made me because of how much it sounds like figure skating!

Anyway, the popularity and $$$ of college and pro basketball and football make it worthwhile to begin funding even low-income kids at young ages. But that's just not the case for most sports.

ETA: Getting back to the US ladies....I won't be surprised if Starr is in for a rough Skate Canada, unfortunately. Hoping Mariah can pull out a surprise bronze medal here? Looking forward to seeing how she's improved since her last competition.

 

[concorde]

What's new (or maybe not so new) is that the situation is rather dire.

I will say this until I am blue in the face.

The current US system rewards pretty skaters, not those that are trying hard tricks. The easier the trick, the easier it is to make things look pretty. Hard tricks get penalized if they are not well done. But hard tricks are needed to do well internationally.

It takes lots more work to get a skater fast and fully able to rotate their jumps than to "just" get a pretty skater. If the opposite were true, we would not be having this discussion. The US needs to focus on skaters that have the goods, then prettiness can be added. Nathan is a great example - his primary focus was on the technical and once he got the goods, he then added the artistry.

Look through the Regionals results. Lots of the top skaters have high PCS scores but their jumps are being called as underrotated. Then go further down and you will see skaters with fully rotated jumps but lower PCS.

 

[gkelly]

I'm not saying we should. But identifying, and getting better training for, talented skaters at a younger age needs to happen. Kids go to summer camp away from their parents at a fairly young age. Why can't a summer program be created for talented young skaters?

Many training centers, and other rinks, hold summer programs with ice time available for kids to skate more hours per day than they can during the school year and with access to top coaches for those who can go away for the summer but not relocate from a less elite-focused home base year round.

I think this was even more true (with lower total numbers) in my day and earlier, when there were fewer rinks nationwide and even fewer that were open at all during the summers.

And I think if talented skaters of "average income" in the past have succeeded, others can, too.

Yes, if the talent and the desire are there, sometimes the financial difficulties can be solved.

But there also needs to be some targeted funding of young skaters with potential.

Where would the money come from? And how would it be targeted?

Who decides which skaters are talented enough to receive this funding? What would be the criteria -- does it start in earlier childhood/early skill levels? or around juvenile level? or after it's clear who has at least the potential to learn and retain triple jumps?

The answers to the latter questions would probably depend on how much money is available.

 

[Ice Dance]

The current international system is rewarding "pretty" execution more now too.

And Nathan always had artistry. People just decided to label him as a technical skater because he was better than the rest of the World at the technical side sooner. He has continued to develop his performance ability, but he was winning competitions with non-quad jumps early in his junior career because he was also a quality performer with good basic skills.

The U.S. sent a bunch of guys into the junior ranks this year that have triple axels and not much presentation. They didn't get far. You have to have both.

There are very few U.S. ladies with the jumps to compete internationally. It's not like they are all getting taken out at the regional level. You look at the first junior event of the season, and all the ladies above Pooja have triple lutz triple toe or triple lutz triple loop. Which junior U.S. ladies can actually successfully compete comparable difficulty in an SP? It's not enough to have it written on paper. You have to be able to do it in the event.


Note: I think people must give Starr time. She is turning into a young lady and that often takes a season or two. We do see athletes come through adolescence with flying colors, though. Loena Hendrickx is a great example. She may have struggled in her SP at SA, but she hit everything in the practices. Including a gorgeous run-through.

 

[concorde]

Internationally a skater has to be both pretty and have the goods.

Right now it seems like US lady skaters have more pretty but less goods. That is the issue that needs to be corrected.

 

[ssffww]

The U.S. sent a bunch of guys into the junior ranks this year that have triple axels and not much presentation. They didn't get far. You have to have both.

Even so, three out of eight of our men made the junior grand prix final. We're stronger in men than in ladies.

 

[concorde]

Even so, three out of eight of our men made the junior grand prix final. We're stronger in men than in ladies.

With the men, the current qualifying system works because of their numbers. Percentage wise, lot of males move up to Sectionals/ Nationals.

The opposite is true with females. In the old Junior Nationals system, about 10% of a level went from Regionals to Nationals (the last year, SA sent 9 juvies and it tends to have just over 100 skaters). Today, only about 4% of juvie skaters in SA reach Sectionals and only 4 of 12 skaters in Sectionsls move to Nationals. So if a skater is from a big Region, you are talking about <1% chance of reaching Nationals. You need big numbers moving up at the lower levels since attrition is high (injuries, interests change, changing body proportions, financial issues). Under the current system and the ladies, USFS has just not put enough eggs in their basket.

 

[century2009]

She can only "Attempt" 1 combo in the SP. She singled her loop and that was the only Combo she's allowed in the SP. I believe even a "Pop" counts as an attempt. Someone else can correct me if this is wrong.

The point was why did she even attempt a single loop. She shouldnt have.

Once she knew she had a bad landing for the lutz. She should have not done it and waited for the Flip.

 

[century2009]

Yes, had she not added the 1Lo onto the 3Lz she could have attempted a combo later.

This is what I mean.

It really showed her inexperience. Maybe she got nervous here.

Like Nathan had a bad landing on his flip, which was planned for his combo, but once he noticed he had a bad landing, he tag the combo to his Lutz later.