2018-2019 Season - New rules

[Xen]

Echoing what Karne said, I don't get the idea of removing the requirement of steps before a solo jump. Yes, it's evaluated in GOE, but the idea of the GOE evaluation, correct me if I'm wrong, is about the quality and the complexity of the steps. The reason why it is required initially, is to determine whether or not steps exist at all. Those are 2 different criteria for evaluating "steps"-2 different evaluation points.

If anything, such a rule and evaluation should be given to tech panel perhaps, if judges can't be held accountable to evaluate correctly. Step 1, is for tech panel to decide if "steps" before the solo jump even existed. Similar to a fall on jmps. If no steps, mark it. If you have steps, then the judges decide on GOE basis, how complex, musical etc the steps are. That's what GOE means- it was NOT meant to evaluate whether or not something "existed."

As for backloading- I get that people didn't like Alina's FS. But I don't think it's time to jump up and down and say the sky is falling.
1) It is highly possible there are music edits, and skaters and choreography that *can* make a fully backloaded program work. Let's not close that possibility just due to 1 (1!!!) skater with a program that we (or you, personally) dislike.
2) Has anyone ever considered a fully backloaded program as a viable competitive possibility against 3As or quads? Is this something that perhaps, women who don't have quads and 3As can attempt, stamina permitting, against the quads and 3As that may show up in senior women's? If yes, then again, are we not just ruining competitive longevity by closing this possibility?


As for the issue or jump variety and difficulty-I think the proposal by Japan, of rewarding skaters for having a clean jump of each type (triple or quad) would do the trick better than mandatory no repeat quads, or a restriction on jump type.

I am honestly flabbergasted, shocked even, that someone would even think that having a mandatory jump type at the senior level is a good idea. Remember that this isn't just for ladies, this may also impact the men's discipline. Think of the competitive advantage men with 4F, 4Lz and 4Loop would have over the rest of the field in the SP. Sure, a guy can do a triple version of the Flip, Lutz or Loop when the time comes, but tell me honestly, when was the last time you saw a full GOE get added to a triple jump that was not a 3A? Anyone? Add in factorization of triple jumps in the SOV, and when can triples ever catch up to a clean quad? Never perhaps? If anything, this will push the men's to go for the 4Flip, 4Lz and 4Loop, you might even consider skipping 4T and 4S altogther: rotating wise, you can always go 4F3T//4Lz 3A when the year's the flip jump, and just rotate around. Sure skating is suppose to be beautiful and artistic, but let's not forget that it's a sport and skaters are competitive. People are going to try to min/max their scoring potential under any new system-if the scoring system says skaters need 4Lz and 4F etc to be even viable, then that's what skaters will aim for.

 

[chopinskate]

I honestly flabbergasted, shocked even, that someone would even think that having a mandatory jump type at the senior level is a good idea. Remember that this isn't just for ladies, this may also impact the men's discipline. Think of the competitive advantage men with 4F, 4Lz and 4Loop would have over the rest of the field in the SP. Sure, a guy can do a triple version of the Flip, Lutz or Loop when the time comes, but tell me honestly, when was the last time you saw a full GOE get added to a triple jump that was not a 3A? Anyone? Add in factorization of triple jumps in the SOV, and when can triples ever catch up to a clean quad? Never perhaps? If anything, this will push the men's to go for the 4Flip, 4Lz and 4Loop, you might even consider skipping 4T and 4S altogther: rotating wise, you can always go 4F3T//4Lz 3A when the year's the flip jump, and just rotate around. Sure skating is suppose to be beautiful and artistic, but let's not forget that it's a sport and skaters are competitive. People are going to try to min/max their scoring potential under any new system-if the scoring system says skaters need 4Lz and 4F etc to be even viable, then that's what skaters will aim for.

That's not to even mention that it is doubtful that people who can do a good 3Lz or a good 3F, could also learn to do a good 4Lz or a good 4F. The technique isn't just about the take-off edge. Why do injuries happen?

And if this just makes people learn the easier, cheated technique for quads... What's the point?


This isn't a rule that should be passing.

 

[Xen]

That's not to even mention that it is doubtful that people who can do a good 3Lz or a good 3F, could also learn to do a good 4Lz or a good 4F. The technique isn't just about the take-off edge. Why do injuries happen?

And if this just makes people learn the easier, cheated technique for quads... What's the point?


This isn't a rule that should be passing.

Nah, I don't think it's a rule that's being proposed.
At the junior level, because we don't have many skaters doing 4Lz or 4F or 4Lo yet, it hasn't been an issue. But man, if one day the quad varieties are allowed and junior skaters can do them, watch the SP scores go that direction.

But to a degree, limiting to just 1 quad of each type would indirectly do something similar- it would encourage the men at least to go for the harder quads, as if they didn't have enough BV incentive already. I mean if you only have stamina for 3 quads, and you need 3 different quads, why not just go for 4Lz, 4F and 4Lo? When clean, the BV is worth more than the 4T and 4S. So why even train 4T and 4S even?

 

[chopinskate]

Yeah, I hope these don't pass.

 

[Mathman]

Then, those are people who didnt watch figure skating that closely.

Well, first, here is what some people who have watched figure skating closely have to say about what the purpose of the backloading bonus is.

Proposal: In the Short Program and Free Skating of Single Skating the Base Values (but not the GOEs) for all jump Elements started in the second half of the program will be multiplied by a special factor 1.1 in order to give credit for even distribution of difficulties in the program, with a maximum of 2 in the Short Program and 4 in the Free program.

Reason: The rule is intended to award credit for even distribution of difficulties in the program, therefore this change will ensure even distribution and reward balanced programs.

Whatever we think of the new proposal, the part in bold seems to be well accepted by everyone involved in figure skating and knowledgeable about its history, despite the "tired legs" that TV commentators like to talk about.

Cause second half bonus is there for many many years now and we got only one skater who did fully backloaded program.

This , however, is not relevant to the question of "nipping things in the bud." In the LP at Pyeongchang, there were five ladies, not one, whose scores would be affected by the proposed change, including Kaori Sakamoto and Karen Chen. This is "the bud." Next year there will probably be ten.

If this trend is a good thing, then so be it. If not, then why not allow skaters to earn extra points in other ways, such as more interesting choreography, instead of over-rewarding backloading? A skater could still backload to her heart's content if it made sense to do so within the structure of her program; it's just that the reward for doing 5 or 6 or 7 jumps in the second half would be a little less than it is now.

To me, its no biggie one way or the other, but I have no objection to the proposal.

 

[Skater Boy]

I don't like the mandatory jump for juniors and definitely don't want it in seniors. It's too stifling -- for example, last year, Alina couldn't do her 3Lz-3Lo in the short because of that stupid solo 3Lo requirement

Hmm with a mandatory jump it means if it the rule had been in place years ago skaters like Yamaguchi might never be such a star as she had trouble with the salchow. And Yuna had huge issues with the loop. It would favour all around jumpers like Rochette, Osmond, Zagitova, Miyahara.

 

[Shayuki]

Hmm with a mandatory jump it means if it the rule had been in place years ago skaters like Yamaguchi might never be such a star as she had trouble with the salchow. And Yuna had huge issues with the loop. It would favour all around jumpers like Rochette, Osmond, Zagitova, Miyahara.

"All around jumpers" like Osmond? Her edge jumps have been bad all season and she flutzes. This is a rule that would likely bother her, as it would Medvedeva. It also might bother Zagitova, depending on how many jumps she can add -3Lo to.

I think it'd be entertaining if the 3T was the required solo jump, though.

 

[Fruitpie]

I really don't understand what "unbalanced" programs everyone likes to talk about. I'd rather see a hundred of Zagitova-like programs than one Daleman-esque. For me Don Quixote is like the best ladies program ever in terms of composition.
But I still think that the second half rule should be changed. May be bonus should be rised with every minute (f.e. from 1.05 to 1.15)? If someone can jump 3 combos in the last seconds of their program, ISU should let it. It would be a high risk after all, so it should get a big reward.

 

[Shayuki]

I really don't understand what "unbalanced" programs everyone likes to talk about. I'd rather see a hundred of Zagitova-like programs than one Daleman-esque. For me Don Quixote is like the best ladies program ever in terms of composition.
But I still think that the second half rule should be changed. May be bonus should be rised with every minute (f.e. from 1.05 to 1.15)? If someone can jump 3 combos in the last seconds of their program, ISU should let it. It would be a high risk after all, so it should get a big reward.

I agree that some more scaling would be interesting. That could also lead into all the jumps on the second half not being one after another, giving people the "more balanced" programs that they desire.

 

[chopinskate]

I agree that some more scaling would be interesting. That could also lead into all the jumps on the second half not being one after another, giving people the "more balanced" programs that they desire.

Isn't Zagitova already doing this? I haven't timed her, but she does a spin after her 3F-2T-2Lo. So it probably won't stop complaints.

Let the music be interpreted as it may. If it doesn't fit, deduct points from CO and IN.

But the bonus should be fixed in some manner, just so people purposefully don't cram their jumps in the 2nd half.

 

[Shayuki]

Isn't Zagitova already doing this? I haven't timed her, but she does a spin after her 3F-2T-2Lo. So it probably won't stop complaints.

Let the music be interpreted as it may. If it doesn't fit, deduct points from CO and IN.

But the bonus should be fixed in some manner, just so people purposefully cram their jumps in the 2nd half.

But Zagitova does 0+7. What I was mostly referring to would be skaters doing formats like 3+4. Usually, those will have 3 right away and 4 one after another after the halfway point. That's when they might get split up, like 3-2-2.

 

[Mathman]

I really don't understand what "unbalanced" programs everyone likes to talk about. I'd rather see a hundred of Zagitova-like programs than one Daleman-esque. For me Don Quixote is like the best ladies program ever in terms of composition.

Any variation on the bonus rue would still allow Zagitova to do a Zagotova-like program and Daleman to do a Daleman-like program. The only quibble is how many extra points should Zagitpva get compared to Daleman, for putting all the jumps in the second half? 2? 3? If Zagitova's program is the best ever in terms of composition, then she should get sky-high PCSs in the Composition category. If Alina exhibits superior skating skills while she is doing all this, then she should get high component scores in SS.

The 'Tano question is somewhat related, IMHO. If you do a Tano as a spectacular "ta-da!" highlight (as Brian Boitano did), then your program should be rewarded for having a spectacular ta-da highlight. But if every jump is a Tano, then the trick loses its impact and should not be further rewarded. This is not a restriction on how many Tanos you can do. Do as many as you like. Do as many as contribute something positive to the program.

 

[4everchan]

Well, first, here is what some people who have watched figure skating closely have to say about what the purpose of the backloading bonus is.

Quote Originally Posted by the ISU document under evaluation in this thread, from Skate Canada

Proposal: In the Short Program and Free Skating of Single Skating the Base Values (but not the GOEs) for all jump Elements started in the second half of the program will be multiplied by a special factor 1.1 in order to give credit for even distribution of difficulties in the program, with a maximum of 2 in the Short Program and 4 in the Free program.

Reason: The rule is intended to award credit for even distribution of difficulties in the program, therefore this change will ensure even distribution and reward balanced programs.

and that's for me the issue...

rules are set up.. people frontload as it is easier to get their jumps on fresh legs, especially before getting them tired with steps..

ISU thinks.. well... how can we get them not to frontload.... and does a half-job by creating a mid program bonus... without realizing that one day, some people will do the opposite...

so now, they have to change the rules again... to actually get to the original intent...

and my issue is exactly this : could you think properly and make good rules, once and for all ? At least rules that do not create loopholes or rules that do not need to be changed every other year... ? PCS are not finished to be tweaked...

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Whatever we think of the new proposal, the part in bold seems to be well accepted by everyone involved in figure skating and knowledgeable about its history, despite the "tired legs" that TV commentators like to talk about.





If this trend is a good thing, then so be it. If not, then why not allow skaters to earn extra points in other ways, such as more interesting choreography, instead of over-rewarding backloading? A skater could still backload to her heart's content if it made sense to do so within the structure of her program

From what i see that concept is well accepted only by Canadas Federation. What is exactly the meaning of even distribution of difficulties, when one way is more difficult from another? Does it mean that if we want to perform 2 combos or 2 quads we should perform it in different segments of the programme? Does it mean we shouldnt perform 2 spins back to back when just 3 are allowed? (btw that backloaded programme was the only one from all top ladies who didnt have 2 spins performed one after another!)... Bonus was meant to reward jumps which wouldnt be awarded in GOE (cause quality of jumps tends to drop during the programme, with skaters tiredness). So, if they feel backloading is not a right way to earn points, they should came up with reason more connected with the things i already mention. But my point is - If that proposal pass all skaters will put exactly the same number of jumps in second half, the rewarded one, and we will watch the same distribution of elements in every skating programme. To be fair, we didnt have that scenario with second half bonus. And if they really want to reward choreography somehow, they could propose the thing Ice Dance committee have already proposed, some kind of bonus for choreography. After all, im not directly against the proposal itself, but only if the right reason was given. It just seems to me that some of those suggested proposals doesn't have the right cause behind it

 

[gkelly]

Nah, I don't think it's a rule that's being proposed.
At the junior level, because we don't have many skaters doing 4Lz or 4F or 4Lo yet, it hasn't been an issue. But man, if one day the quad varieties are allowed and junior skaters can do them, watch the SP scores go that direction.

As of now, quads are not allowed in the junior SP, either in the solo jump (which is required to be double or triple loop, flip, or lutz each year) or in the combination (which can be triple-double or triple-triple for men -- junior ladies also have the option of double-double).

If and when quads become allowed in the junior short, they'll probably start with allowing them in the combo only while keeping the required double-or-triple as the solo jump. We're a long way away from required takeoffs allowing quads in juniors.

Hmm with a mandatory jump it means if it the rule had been in place years ago skaters like Yamaguchi might never be such a star as she had trouble with the salchow.

There were required solo jumps in the SP when Yamaguchi was coming up through juniors and her first year in seniors (1988). But they were required double jumps. There was also a required double jumps in the jump combination through 1988 (and required spins and shapes of step sequences). The point of the required jumps was to compare elements that every skater at that level was expected to be able to do. However it meant only one triple in the SP and because most senior men were clearly capable of more the rules changed in 1989, although it was quite a while longer before women were allowed and later required to do triples as the solo jump or to do triple-triple combinations.

Isn't Zagitova already doing this? I haven't timed her, but she does a spin after her 3F-2T-2Lo. So it probably won't stop complaints.

Does anyone complain about skaters doing two spins in a row especially in freeskates where there is plenty of room to spread them out? If we're interested in highlight distribution, shouldn't that be a no-no also?

Of course, it doesn't earn extra points or give anyone an obvious advantage, which is why no one is complaining.

However, just looking at the freeskate layouts of the Olympic ladies event, the vast majority did two spins in a row, often with nothing but a couple of three turns or other simple steps in between. Zagitova was one of only a handful who spread them out, with one spin near the beginning, one in the middle, and one at the end. For whatever that is worth.

 

[Osmond4gold]

"All around jumpers" like Osmond? Her edge jumps have been bad all season and she flutzes. This is a rule that would likely bother her, as it would Medvedeva. It also might bother Zagitova, depending on how many jumps she can add -3Lo to.

I think it'd be entertaining if the 3T was the required solo jump, though.

Actually it was her 3Loop jump more than any other that secured her an Olympic medal and made her a World Champion. She rec'd the highest GOE on that jump in Milano that any other of her single jumps. You should watch her performances from the recent Japan shows and SOI Canada to reaffirm, as I don't believe KO has missed it in weeks. Also, I am not sure why you continue with a narrative that her Black Swam was not a fit, as she medalled in every event she entered this season, including the GP Final, the Olympics and Worlds of course, and most comments I read, say it was the best Swan this season. Perhaps inner biases need some adjusting, Shayuki?

Need further proof? Watch the B ESP LP, and check out what they say at the 6:18 mark re Kaetlyn's program choices the past 2 seasons and her choice of Black Swan this year. Or the online votes here on GS, as best programs the last few. You will likely will find yourself in the minority.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wU5WTkLi3ms

 

[chopinskate]

Does anyone complain about skaters doing two spins in a row especially in freeskates where there is plenty of room to spread them out? If we're interested in highlight distribution, shouldn't that be a no-no also?

I always find something to complain, so I did.

I did notice Zagitova's spins. But then, in the SP, she does two back to back at the end.

 

[moriel]

Actually it was her 3Loop jump more than any other that secured her an Olympic medal and made her a World Champion. She rec'd the highest GOE on that jump in Milano that any other of her single jumps. You should watch her performances from the recent Japan shows and SOI Canada to reaffirm, as I don't believe KO has missed it in weeks. Also, I am not sure why you continue with a narrative that her Black Swam was not a fit, as she medalled in every event she entered this season, including the GP Final, the Olympics and Worlds of course, and most comments I read, say it was the best Swan this season. Perhaps inner biases need some adjusting, Shayuki?

Need further proof? Watch the B ESP LP, and check out what they say at the 6:18 mark re Kaetlyn's program choices the past 2 seasons and her choice of Black Swan this year.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wU5WTkLi3ms

The fact someone wins a medal does not make a program good though. I mean, come on, Tarasova and Morozov won 4 golds and a silver last season with Candyman, so why is everybody saying it is bad? Alina won gold at Olympics, and see how many people trash her FS.
Last but not least, pretty much all swans were meh this season, so being best of them still does not make it good. I will support the people who say that the swan program was a terrible fit, and extremely out of character.

Overall, i dont think any skater with a flutz can be called a good all around jumper. Perhaps inner biases need some adjusting, Osmond4gold?

 

[Osmond4gold]

The fact someone wins a medal does not make a program good though. I mean, come on, Tarasova and Morozov won 4 golds and a silver last season with Candyman, so why is everybody saying it is bad? Alina won gold at Olympics, and see how many people trash her FS.
Last but not least, pretty much all swans were meh this season, so being best of them still does not make it good. I will support the people who say that the swan program was a terrible fit, and extremely out of character.

Overall, i dont think any skater with a flutz can be called a good all around jumper. Perhaps inner biases need some adjusting, Osmond4gold?

And did Tarasova and Morozov reach the podium at every event this season, or become the World Champion, moriel? Choosing the right program never guarantees anyone a medal but when skated well, and if it's a program that a skater truly LOVES and BELIEVES in, it sure helps!

 

[kwanatic]

I will support the people who say that the swan program was a terrible fit, and extremely out of character.

Overall, i dont think any skater with a flutz can be called a good all around jumper. Perhaps inner biases need some adjusting, Osmond4gold?

Even with the incorrect lutz edge and problematic loop I'd say Kaetlyn is still an all-around good jumper. The mechanics of her jumps are amazing: speed, height, distance, rotation position, riding edge, flow...she's an amazing jumper even with her flaws. Yuna Kim didn't have a loop but does that mean she wasn't a great jumper? Medvedeva flutzes, toe axels and muscles jumps, but she's still a strong jumper. You have to take the good with the bad.

As for Kaetlyn's Black Swan I liked it just fine. It wasn't some amazingly innovative/fresh approach to the music/character but in terms of the drama and power of the music and her delivery, I thought it suited her well. Then again, I also liked Karen Chen's Carmen and people seemed to think it was a stinker so what do I know?