2018-2019 Season - New rules

[Osmond4gold]

Alena Kostornaya, with a wonderfully arched back and beautiful flexibility
Also, I love Gabby and always have. Please don’t tell me who I’m apparently a fan of

Again, I am not talking juniorish skaters who are not even in the same league as senior women. :noshake: When that skater gets to the big leagues and can pull off what Gabby does, then we can talk comparisons.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

On multiple occasions Gabby has received max GOE for the element

Which doesn't necesseraly mean she litteraly has all the bullet points. It could also means her height and distance in the jump is enough to replace lack of more difficult entry and variations in body position! Like some preceding steps and unexpected or very original jump entry can replace lack of Gabby's jumps height! If someone has something extra special about some jump judges could award it with max goe if they think so.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

Why diminish the accomplishments of one just because she’s young? Her and Gabby are BOTH good skaters, regardless of age.

 

[Osmond4gold]

Why diminish the accomplishments of one just because she’s young? Her and Gabby are BOTH good skaters, regardless of age.

Because Russian junior ladies have a reputation of being '16 and done', as many do not perform the same tricks nor skate to the same level as they once did, post puberty. Doing something at 12 years of age versus the same tricks at 18, are 2 completely different things.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

^^^
It isn't characteristic for Russians only. Carolina, Mirai, Miki Ando and many more had cleaner jumps when they were younger/pre-puberty!

 

[Osmond4gold]

^^^
It isn't characteristic for Russians only. Carolina, Mirai, Miki Ando and many more had cleaner jumps when they were younger/pre-puberty!

But we were comparing Gabby versus a certain Russian junior skater. TBH, I don't see the same drop out rate in the sport, as Russia has versus other nations at that age.

 

[frida80]

What bullets does Gabby hit?
Great height / distance for sure
Great flow
Effortless throughout
good extension

no delayed rotation / arm variation
no difficult entrance / exit (if her back was arched in the Ina Bauer that'd be different)
no unexpected entry
not usually matched to music

that's a +2... even if it is matched to the music, 5 bullets is still a +2

so the +3s across the board -- why? how?

also, how can one possibly say that Zagitova doesn't have a natural jumping ability and just muscles her jumps? have you seen them?!!

An Inu Bauer and spread eagle are always considered a difficult entrance because it changes the center of gravity of body and the body has to rapidly adjust to recenter itself. Also bullet 8. worded wrong. I got this from the 2017-2018 ISU rule book.

8. element matched to the musical structure

She lands her 2nd 3T right on the music for her FS. So that's six bullets, which qualifies her for +3 points.

Not to say no one doesn't get +3 added without meeting the criteria. That happens all the time.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

But we were comparing Gabby versus a certain Russian junior skater. TBH, I don't see the same drop out rate in the sport, as Russia has versus other nations at that age.

I don't see the same bloodbath in the spot, as Russia has versus other nations at that age. This isn't to compare who's better or has better skaters, it's just pointing out that a natural consequence of having oodles of talented skaters is that not all of them can succeed. Does it suck? Yes. Is it a natural consequence? Yeah. Unless we get more spots for JWC, some girls won't be able to succeed, and may drop the sport for lack of success.

 

[Bluediamonds09]

So, is it absolutely set in stone? Are the men’s long programs going to be reduced to 4 minuets?

 

[Baron Vladimir]

But we were comparing Gabby versus a certain Russian junior skater. TBH, I don't see the same drop out rate in the sport, as Russia has versus other nations at that age.

But all those skaters i quoted were comparable with any others too. When you saw Miki Ando ot Trusova landing quad, you ask yourself why others dont practising it - for example. Juniors are future of the sport, simply at it is... And if you compared Gabby versus certain Russian skater, i think here is not the right place to do that. This thread is not about certain skaters, but about skaters in general

 

[Baron Vladimir]

So, is it absolutely set in stone? Are the men’s long programs going to be reduced to 4 minuets?

To be fair, why would men have more time for their programmes comparing to ladies? eace:

 

[Osmond4gold]

See below.

 

[Osmond4gold]

But all those skaters i quoted were comparable with any others too. When you saw Miki Ando ot Trusova landing quad, you ask yourself why others dont practising it - for example. Juniors are future of the sport, simply at it is... And if you compared Gabby versus certain Russian skater, i think here is not the right place to do that. This thread is not about certain
skaters, but about skaters in general

And as you know Baron, another poster brought Gabby into the conversation, not I. I was merely commenting on her dismissal towards Gabby and her jump entrance, but in the same breath she also says, she is ...umm 'a Fan'.

I am sure Gabby appreciates her...fandom

 

[Spirals for Miles]

I can be a fan without thinking that the skater's perfect. I know they all have flaws -- I know Evgenia flutzes, and Alina tends to rush. I know that Kaori also flutzes or that Bradie hasn't found her performance stride quite yet. It doesn't mean I like them any less -- it means I acknowledge that no one person can be perfect.

 

[BillNeal]

So, is it absolutely set in stone? Are the men’s long programs going to be reduced to 4 minuets?

Men's and pair's long programs will both be cut to 4 minutes. In men's they are cutting one jumping pass and in pair's they are cutting the choreo sequence.

 

[cohen-esque]

What bullets does Gabby hit?
Great height / distance for sure
Great flow
Effortless throughout
good extension

no delayed rotation / arm variation
no difficult entrance / exit (if her back was arched in the Ina Bauer that'd be different)
no unexpected entry
not usually matched to music

that's a +2... even if it is matched to the music, 5 bullets is still a +2

so the +3s across the board -- why? how?

People could actually read the rules...

To establish the starting GOE Judges must take into consideration the bullets for each element. It is at the discretion of each Judge to decide on the number of bullets for any upgrade, but general recommendations are as follows: FOR + 1 : 2 bullets FOR + 2 : 4 bullets FOR + 3 : 6 or more bullets

https://www.isu.org/docman-document...munications/14352-isu-communication-2089/file

Anyway, spread eagle/Ina Bauer is generally considered a difficult entrance but even if not, it’s absolutely a “clear, recognizable free skating movement” so that’s possibly 2 bullets in one. +3, as per guidelines.

 

[chopinskate]

This is a moot point anyway... Neither Zagitova nor Daleman has perfect technique on the combos being discussed. So any +3s currently they get can simply be considered as their being +3s based on qualities like "hard combo" in case of Zagitova, or "great height" in case of Daleman I don't necessarily agree with those +3s. If the proposed system passes, neither of them would get more than +3, because of non-ideal technique/height in case of Zagitova, and non-ideal technique in the case of Daleman.

 

[cohen-esque]

This is a moot point anyway... Neither Zagitova nor Daleman has perfect technique on the combos being discussed. So any +3s currently they get can simply be considered as their being +3s based on qualities like "hard combo" in case of Zagitova, or "great height" in case of Daleman. If the proposed system passes, neither of them would get more than +3, because of non-ideal technique/height in case of Zagitova, and non-ideal technique in the case of Daleman.

I really don’t see why Gabby couldn’t earn a +5 under the proposed new rules. She hits the three core bullets, and then she only needs to get the entry (check) and matched to the music. The only issue I might see is “very good takeoff” but the ISU clearly has very different ideas than fans about these things and I don’t think Gabby’s 3T is what they have in mind as a weak takeoff.

 

[chopinskate]

The only issue I might see is “very good takeoff” but the ISU clearly has very different ideas than fans about these things and I don’t think Gabby’s 3T is what they have in mind as a weak takeoff.

This is the issue, yes, and it's still ill-defined, so let's see.
Pretty much, if it fails to differentiate between Higuchi's -3T, and Daleman's... IDK.

 

[Miller]

Men's and pair's long programs will both be cut to 4 minutes. In men's they are cutting one jumping pass and in pair's they are cutting the choreo sequence.

The proposal is now to cut one of the spins in the pairs so that you get 1 combination spin in one program and 1 SBS spin in the other. Whether this is a good thing is another matter. To me SBS spins are a real test of a pair re synchronisation, alongside the SBS jumps, they're what being a pair is all about. Also how they're going to fit it all in is another matter. From what I've seen spins typically take about 20 seconds so something else is going to have to give, and they're hardly hanging around as it is.