2019-20 U.S. Ladies Figure Skating

[doublequad]

when is regionals?

 

[Sugarpova]

Im late but happy birthday Alysa!

 

[katymay]

I am really not understanding why the US should have some sort of public skate-off to the death to decide international assignments? What would that serve?

Now I follow the men much more closely, so my general statements are based more on that. Where I have seen skaters suffer from nerves, it’s because they suffer from nerves. Not because they’re stuck in some cocoon world where they don’t see competition. More competition isn’t going to do diddly squat for them, addressing the root issues, whatever they may be, will.

And thank God Champs camp is not a skate off to the death. From his interviews, Jason did not shine at the 2018 Champs Camp. To the point where he actually said, the panel knows what I can do, and they gave me a pass. And if they hadn’t? The senior men’s comps would have been deprived of that marvelous SP last year because he tanked a summer camp?

No thanks. I don’t want that for ladies, men, pairs or dance:disapp:

Well there is this: You make sure as a Fed that your skaters are ready to go. Also, it forces skaters to have a fixed date in which they are ready to go. Currently we don't even have enough skaters to take advantage of the GP, and JGP slots available, so no one would be eliminated ala Hunger Games. But a Russian Test Skate type event would guard against the debacle that happened last season.
'Team building' is a lofty goal...for a team. Figure skating is an individual sport, and except for the fun swag, I suspect that many could happily do without 'Champs Camp'. (Especially the more senior members of the team). Much of it is PR photo sessions and meet and greets designed to serve the interest of the USFSA. Big fun for rising Juniors, probably a waste of time for the Bradies and Mariahs who would probably prefer to spend the time training on their home ice.

 

[Tavi...]

Well there is this: You make sure as a Fed that your skaters are ready to go. Also, it forces skaters to have a fixed date in which they are ready to go. Currently we don't even have enough skaters to take advantage of the GP, and JGP slots available, so no one would be eliminated ala Hunger Games. But a Russian Test Skate type event would guard against the debacle that happened last season.
'Team building' is a lofty goal...for a team. Figure skating is an individual sport, and except for the fun swag, I suspect that many could happily do without 'Champs Camp'. (Especially the more senior members of the team). Much of it is PR photo sessions and meet and greets designed to serve the interest of the USFSA. Big fun for rising Juniors, probably a waste of time for the Bradies and Mariahs who would probably prefer to spend the time training on their home ice.

Who do you think a test skate would have helped, and how?

 

[gkelly]

October. Three weekends for nine regions.

 

[andromache]

Who do you think a test skate would have helped, and how?

I am not the person you were asking, but I think test skates would be valuable for skaters vying for JGP spots. Those spots are not guaranteed or invite-based (unlike most GP spots), and test skates would be a relatively transparent, fair way of deciding who gets those JGP spots and who doesn't. Or at least holding test skates and considering them as factor in the process.

As for katymay (who you were replying to), I think she is implying that a test skate would have helped Gracie avoid her disastrous outing at Rostelecom last year. That was her first public outing in a LONG time, and apparently, that terrible SP was what made her realize that she just wasn't ready yet. If Gracie had had to do a test skate, she might have realized that before going to Russia and doing it in competition. (And this is not to knock on Gracie at all - I'm a longtime fan and understand her struggles.)

 

[Tavi...]

I am not the person you were asking, but I think test skates would be valuable for skaters vying for JGP spots. Those spots are not guaranteed or invite-based (unlike most GP spots), and test skates would be a relatively transparent, fair way of deciding who gets those JGP spots and who doesn't. Or at least holding test skates and considering them as factor in the process.

As for katymay (who you were replying to), I think she is implying that a test skate would have helped Gracie avoid her disastrous outing at Rostelecom last year. That was her first public outing in a LONG time, and apparently, that terrible SP was what made her realize that she just wasn't ready yet. If Gracie had had to do a test skate, she might have realized that before going to Russia and doing it in competition. (And this is not to knock on Gracie at all - I'm a longtime fan and understand her struggles.)

Yes, I was wondering if she meant Gracie. And I suppose a test skate might have helped her decide to withdraw. But that was a pretty unusual circumstance and Russia was fairly late in the season (November?). I’m not sure how much it would have helped on the JGP, but maybe. The thing is, last year I don’t think we had lot of spots or skaters.

 

[el henry]

Well there is this: You make sure as a Fed that your skaters are ready to go. Also, it forces skaters to have a fixed date in which they are ready to go. Currently we don't even have enough skaters to take advantage of the GP, and JGP slots available, so no one would be eliminated ala Hunger Games. But a Russian Test Skate type event would guard against the debacle that happened last season.
'Team building' is a lofty goal...for a team. Figure skating is an individual sport, and except for the fun swag, I suspect that many could happily do without 'Champs Camp'. (Especially the more senior members of the team). Much of it is PR photo sessions and meet and greets designed to serve the interest of the USFSA. Big fun for rising Juniors, probably a waste of time for the Bradies and Mariahs who would probably prefer to spend the time training on their home ice.

I’m afraid completely disagree.

These skaters are driven, dedicated and working as hard as they can, every single one of them. These skaters deserve more down time and less pressure and I for one am glad they have it. None of them are skating around in a circle going la di la USFS loves me guess I’ll goof off.

And jumpin off, @Tavi was absolutely right: if Russian test skates are so danged wonderful, and all the pressure so great for forging nerves of steel, what about the Russian men? Facing the same pressure, the same test skates, and how has it helped them? I love his skating when he’s on, but is anyone going to seriously argue that Mikhail Kolyada has nerves of steel, thanks to the expectations of his Fed and the Russian test skate system?

Gracie was completely different. She was eligible, and the Russian Fed invited her. What was USFS supposed to do, take her passport? And the only person she hurt most was Gracie.

I can see an argument for transparency; I’m afraid I see none for test skates

 

[elliana]

Has anyone seen Mariah's FS yet?

 

[oly2018]

Has anyone seen Mariah's FS yet?

I don't think Mariah has even released the name of the music.

 

[cohen-esque]

I’m afraid completely disagree.

These skaters are driven, dedicated and working as hard as they can, every single one of them. These skaters deserve more down time and less pressure and I for one am glad they have it. None of them are skating around in a circle going la di la USFS loves me guess I’ll goof off.

And jumpin off, @Tavi was absolutely right: if Russian test skates are so danged wonderful, and all the pressure so great for forging nerves of steel, what about the Russian men? Facing the same pressure, the same test skates, and how has it helped them? I love his skating when he’s on, but is anyone going to seriously argue that Mikhail Kolyada has nerves of steel, thanks to the expectations of his Fed and the Russian test skate system?

Gracie was completely different. She was eligible, and the Russian Fed invited her. What was USFS supposed to do, take her passport? And the only person she hurt most was Gracie.

I can see an argument for transparency; I’m afraid I see none for test skates

Or the Russian junior men at test skates, for that matter. I think that the strength of the Russian and Japanese ladies simply lies more in the prevalence of highly skilled skaters and therefore the ability to be selective for the athletes with both lots of talent and competitive nerves. You can’t do the same with less talent; I think you’d need to look lower at the development of novice and earlier skaters to see how they’re building up such a level.

 

[el henry]

Or the Russian junior men at test skates, for that matter. I think that the strength of the Russian and Japanese ladies simply lies more in the prevalence of highly skilled skaters and therefore the ability to be selective for the athletes with both lots of talent and competitive nerves. You can’t do the same with less talent; I think you’d need to look lower at the development of novice and earlier skaters to see how they’re building up such a level.

If I am understanding, this is a good point. The test skates at a junior level don’t develop competitive grit, but when you have a surfeit of talent, it can weed out those who don’t. If you only have but so many skaters, the ones that remain will either thrive in “survival of the fittest” or not. And what do you do when the most talented skaters are the ones not thriving? (and I am back to Kolyada). “Mo’ comps, mo’ pressure”, is not going to help them, or the Fed.

every fed plays the hand it’s dealt. If you play every hand the same, then that, to me, is not a good sports decision.

 

[cohen-esque]

If I am understanding, this is a good point. The test skates at a junior level don’t develop competitive grit, but when you have a surfeit of talent, it can weed out those who don’t. If you only have but so many skaters, the ones that remain will either thrive in “survival of the fittest” or not. And what do you do when the most talented skaters are the ones not thriving? (and I am back to Kolyada). “Mo’ comps, mo’ pressure”, is not going to help them, or the Fed.

every fed plays the hand it’s dealt. If you play every hand the same, then that, to me, is not a good sports decision.

Yes, this is exactly what I meant.

 

[Shani]

It seems to me that Russian test skates are an invited event. On the other hand US figure skating regionals and Nationals are a qualifying event. The federation does not decide the entries in US. Parents pay the training and it is expensive in USA for ice time and lessons etc. There is no freebie here. You compete and qualify on your results at nationals for a JGP chance. The state does not select and teach the promising skaters in the USA. These skaters might not be from the richest families either. The two systems are completely different so you really can't compare. Promising skaters in Russia are sent to development coaches.

 

[katymay]

It seems to me that Russian test skates are an invited event. On the other hand US figure skating regionals and Nationals are a qualifying event. The federation does not decide the entries in US. Parents pay the training and it is expensive in USA for ice time and lessons etc. There is no freebie here. You compete and qualify on your results at nationals for a JGP chance. The state does not select and teach the promising skaters in the USA. These skaters might not be from the richest families either. The two systems are completely different so you really can't compare. Promising skaters in Russia are sent to development coaches.

Much can happen between Nationals (in January) and August. State support in Russia really only exists for the few, not for everyone. However, skating in general is much cheaper in Russia than in the US. If an athlete does well in Regionals/Sectionals/Nationals then just like in Russia they should be invited to a test skate, but National results should only put a skater on the radar, it shouldn't be dispositive for an automatic JGP slot, or the host addition. Even Russia has gotten burned by auto GP bids-not going to mention names, but there have been quite a few who were stars one year and done the next.

 

[Orlov]

Promising skaters in Russia are sent to development coaches.

Sorry for the offtopic, but this is a stereotype - they cannot be "sent". Skaters are free people. Children have parents. Federation can advise them, people of the federation can work as those who are called "scouts" in America (if I remember correctly). But nobody "sends" anyone. It's a clishe.

 

[frida80]

Who do you think a test skate would have helped, and how?

For the JGP?

In short: ALL.OF.THEM.

Keep in mind, I’ve been following juniors very very closely for 8 years. To spare the length, I’ll keep it at the last four seasons.

In 2015, we had 15 slots for US ladies and we squandered them. There was no clear and designated format for assigning them and tons of skaters were suddenly called up at random to be on the JGP that had little junior competition experience, low scores, and no preparation.Vivian Le was supposed to be the focus point of the junior team that year. After that, they had not a clue on how to give out these spots. Skaters like Amber Glenn were bumped off the JGP and sent to senior competitions instead of getting more junior experience, even though there were plenty of spots. It was clear Emily Chan wasn’t prepared. Bradie wasn’t given a second spot even though she as the reigning national junior champ. Brynne had the second best results, but was only given one spot. Paige Rydberg was only one other than Vivian to get a second spot, where she earn a weak 124. Women who could only manage the the most basic triples. So many terrible results. It was awful.

In this situation, a test skate would’ve helped dramatically. A fixed number of skaters would’ve earned two spots ahead of time, and had time to prepare. Skaters like Emily would’ve had a chance to see that they weren’t fully prepared for a JGP spot yet, and focused on her consistency. Bradie, Amber, Vivian, and Brynne would’ve been given two spots ahead of time. The rest of the spots could have been give to ladies with all of their triples with potential. Instead of randomly being told a week ahead of time they would be on the JGP, they would be preparing earnestly for a more stressful competition. It likely would’ve focused Vivian more for her competitions, because she wasn’t very challenged in Glacier Falls and earned those high scores for the first time. She would’ve had a good change to settle her programs.

The next year was one where all the belly aching begin from US fans. There was no medals by any lady this year for the first time in ages. People were horrified and unfortunately taking it out of the skaters. Here’s how a test skate could’ve helped.

Alexia: She got a good score at summer competitions weaker competitions. She was one of the few skaters with a consistent triple triple, however she was very inconsistent and tended to pop and fall on jumps. A test skate would’ve forced her focus on the consistency on her jumps in July rather than early August.

Tessa: Got a spot by scoring well at a weak competition. She also popped three jumps, but she got an inflated score for artistry. No suprise that she looked awful on the JGP. A test skate would’ve alerted her and officials to her terrible underrotations and inconsistency under pressure and opened up a spot for someone with less technical problems.

Brynne: She earned a spot by getting a good score from competition with a weak tech controller. All of her jumps were actually underrotated. Naturally that meant internationally, her scores were far lower than domestically. A test skate would’ve caught though errors, alerted Brynne so she could focus on them, and given the spot to someone with less technical errors.

Ashley Lin: Did well at Glacier Falls with her new triple triple combos. However she had clear underrotation problems exserbated by stamina issues. A good test skate would’ve alerted her to underrotation problems. Perhaps seeing her lose to Alexia would’ve made her determined to fix her problems before the JGP.

Gabby: Poor girl was called up and didn’t even know she would be there. Her nerve got the best of her. Had there been a test skate, she would’ve know if she was the next alternate immediately and been better prepared.

This year, Alexia and Ashley should’ve been given a second spot. However using a poor qualifying system lead to many problems flying under the radar until it was too late.

2017, we had several good competitors. However, it’s clear that they just were prepared for the JGP. A test skate would’ve better prepared all of them for the season ahead. One massive problem with the current US selection system is that they use scores from both senior and junior competition. Seniors don’t have SP jump requirement and the FS is 30 shorter. That means ladies who are competing senior domestically must have two FS. Neither Starr nor Kaitlyn had competed with the junior version of their programs and it showed. Starr scored 20 points lower domestically because she competited with brand new junior FS version of her senior FS. The layout was completely different with jumps in completely different places. If she had a test skate, she would’ve had time to test out her junior FS.

Furthermore, while Kaitlyn and Starr had competed against each other, other skaters hadn’t been challenged. The reason why Emmy was able to get such good results was because she was using her previous year’s FS and there were low expectations from her as the pewter medalist. So she was able to medal in her first event, however she failed to repeat the performance at her second because of the new found pressure. If she had done a test skate, she would have a chance to deliver her programs in a very competitive setting, prove to herself that she would do well, and been able to focus more in her competitions.

I have more, but lets move on to last year.

Lots of belly aching again over Ting’s poor performances. The problem was she wasn’t quite ready for that level of pressure. Her 2018 JW performance was her best ever, Internationally or domestically. Suddenly she was the it girl without she herself seeing how she could repeat it.

This is normal. After a good result, skaters get spooked. It’s only after successive results that they gain confidence that it’s not a fluke and they can actually do it. Unfortunately, she didn’t have a chance to do that before she was through to the wolves. Before she stepped on JGP ice last year, she should’ve had a test skate with lots of competitive skaters on her level so that she had a chance to duplicate her results. A good win at the test skates would’ve prepared a lot more than just taking a score at one competition and ignore the other two weak scores. Not to mention she had a new coaching situation that needed to be broken in. A high level competition would’ve allowed Tom Z to learn how Ting competited to better prepare her for the JGP.

Gabriella, who hadn’t medaled at Jr. Nationals needed a good domestic competition to get her to focus more. It would’ve been great if Pooja had seen how how her low her scores were in comparison to other skaters prior to international competition. As for Audrey she didnt know if she would be called up as substitutes. A test skate would’ve prepared more for being alternates.

The way I see it is this. The system we have is crappy. It relies on data that could be easily misleading based on many variables. Skaters that look super impressive looking at some scores can mask many problems that become embarrassingly obvious at international competition. Things like underrotations and technical issues, slow skating, and lack of preparation can be addressed though tightening up club competition standards. However other things like, skaters using familiar competitions and rinks, going to local comps, going to comps with no strong competitors, being familiar with local judges, etc can be addressed best by test skates. By bringing all eligible skaters to a random location, using international judges, and forcing them to compete under formal competition standards in front of an audience, they’ll feel the pressure that they are going to feel internationally anyway. It’s a simulation for the real thing. Why should we allow skaters to be marshmallows and then be shocked when they turn into crap on JGP ice?

I have so many reason and so many examples why test skating would help US Figure skating so much. The least of which, it would create a international competitive environment where skaters become more aware of their flaws and focus more or becoming better competitors. A healthy internal competitive system would push out weak skaters and strengthen talented ones. The reason why both Tara and Sarah were able to to beat Michelle was because she challenged them to step up their game and become greater skaters. It would start with a nudge here and a push there, but eventually USFA could have an armada of 3A ladies who are consistent, artistic, fast and winners. That can’t happen when you’re using the honor system.

When we were in school we all had come to school and take a test to pass the class. We had to join in with the best athletes in school and competed for a coveted spot on the track team. Why should a JGP spot be any different. It’s just a few days. It won’t kill any one. The worse that could happen is that they lose a chance for a spot and learn that they need to work harder the next time.

 

[medoroa]

Frida80, how do you know all those skaters wanted more spots? How do you know the federation didn't give out spots because they megalomaniac decided that's what should be done, rather than it being a compromise among the federation, the skaters, their parents, and everyone's wallets? Also, I'm a bit baffled as to why you think the rest of the spots should have been given to juniors with all their triples. The US has that many juniors with five consistent triples (assuming you're not including the 3A in your requirements)? This is news to me. Especially when you list a bunch of US junior girls... and tell us none of them have consistent triples. So where are all the junior skaters you believe should have received these spots? And a test skate would have helped all these skaters you list gain consistent triples? How? And made them take their sport more seriously? Because they're not taking it seriously now, and that's why they don't have consistent triples???

It's like you think test skates are a miracle cure for a problem you're tip-toeing around. The problem with US ladies isn't the federation or the lack of test skates or that the girls aren't taking it seriously, it's that the talent pool is small and shallow and this is the hand the federation is dealt.

Why is it small and shallow? Probably because skating is no longer popular in the US (the US federation and the ISU probably should bear responsibility for this), and because of the US economy.

 

[halulupu]

I’m afraid completely disagree.

These skaters are driven, dedicated and working as hard as they can, every single one of them. These skaters deserve more down time and less pressure and I for one am glad they have it. None of them are skating around in a circle going la di la USFS loves me guess I’ll goof off.

And jumpin off, @Tavi was absolutely right: if Russian test skates are so danged wonderful, and all the pressure so great for forging nerves of steel, what about the Russian men? Facing the same pressure, the same test skates, and how has it helped them? I love his skating when he’s on, but is anyone going to seriously argue that Mikhail Kolyada has nerves of steel, thanks to the expectations of his Fed and the Russian test skate system?

Gracie was completely different. She was eligible, and the Russian Fed invited her. What was USFS supposed to do, take her passport? And the only person she hurt most was Gracie.

I can see an argument for transparency; I’m afraid I see none for test skates

I would disagree. Many us ladies skater tend to have problems keeping competitive shape or beiing perfectly in shape at a certain competition. Us fed should enforce that IMO. Test skates are one option to do so. Gracie rostelcom cup embaressment (I know hard word, but it was difficult to watch) should have never happend. FS is one of the toughest sports therefore strict,frank, to the point but constructive critic by professionals and not their paid coaches would help

 

[SnowWhite]

In this situation, a test skate would’ve helped dramatically. A fixed number of skaters would’ve earned two spots ahead of time, and had time to prepare. Skaters like Emily would’ve had a chance to see that they weren’t fully prepared for a JGP spot yet, and focused on her consistency. Bradie, Amber, Vivian, and Brynne would’ve been given two spots ahead of time. The rest of the spots could have been give to ladies with all of their triples with potential. Instead of randomly being told a week ahead of time they would be on the JGP, they would be preparing earnestly for a more stressful competition. It likely would’ve focused Vivian more for her competitions, because she wasn’t very challenged in Glacier Falls and earned those high scores for the first time. She would’ve had a good change to settle her programs.

---

Gabby: Poor girl was called up and didn’t even know she would be there. Her nerve got the best of her. Had there been a test skate, she would’ve know if she was the next alternate immediately and been better prepared.

Just to be clear then, what you want is a system more or less like that of South Korea, rather than Russia. South Korea has a selection event where the top x ladies get 2 spots then the next y ladies get 1. Scores and protocols are released and they go by the placements. Then they are all given their assignments, and they don't switch skaters around. In Russia, there is no set result at test skates that says certain skaters will get 2 spots. They do score them, but they don't release scores or protocols and they don't as far as I know automatically go by who had the best scores. Getting 2 spots depends on how you perform at your first one. They switch skaters around often, so it's not like they necessarily know way ahead of time where they'll be skating. And I have no idea if they have a set list of who's next as an alternate, but we know they'll sometimes see a good result at an event after test skates and give that skater a spot (which is how Alena Kostornaya ended up on the JGP in 2017). And the Russian event is in August obviously, whereas the South Korean one is in July.

Since people keep bringing up Russia as an example, I thought it would be worth clarifying that what you want is quite different than what they do.