2019-20 U.S. Ladies Figure Skating | Page 43 | Golden Skate

2019-20 U.S. Ladies Figure Skating

Frida80, how do you know all those skaters wanted more spots? How do you know the federation didn't give out spots because they megalomaniac decided that's what should be done, rather than it being a compromise among the federation, the skaters, their parents, and everyone's wallets? Also, I'm a bit baffled as to why you think the rest of the spots should have been given to juniors with all their triples. The US has that many juniors with five consistent triples (assuming you're not including the 3A in your requirements)? This is news to me. Especially when you list a bunch of US junior girls... and tell us none of them have consistent triples. So where are all the junior skaters you believe should have received these spots? And a test skate would have helped all these skaters you list gain consistent triples? How? And made them take their sport more seriously? Because they're not taking it seriously now, and that's why they don't have consistent triples???

It's like you think test skates are a miracle cure for a problem you're tip-toeing around. The problem with US ladies isn't the federation or the lack of test skates or that the girls aren't taking it seriously, it's that the talent pool is small and shallow and this is the hand the federation is dealt.

Why is it small and shallow? Probably because skating is no longer popular in the US (the US federation and the ISU probably should bear responsibility for this), and because of the US economy.

I’m guessing from your posting history, you don’t know that I’ve talked about the all the issues in USFS for several years. I’ve never said test skates were a miracle cure. Just the best objective way to select JGP spots. There are a ton of problems with the club competition system and judging that lead to massive problems at higher levels.

It’s very unfair to say that the field isn’t as deep because of lack of popularity. From what I can see there are lots of talented young girls skating at all times. While lack of popularity has impacted the number of super talented ladies that spring up naturally, it has not stopped talented girls from potential emerging at all levels that suffer under a ineffective system. USFS can no longer rely on a laissez faire attitude and expect things to work themselves out.

As for the triples, it’s far better to have a skater with triples than no triples. It’s why the bonus system was implemented and has had a strong effect on the number of talented girls popping up.

In 2014, Tessa won intermediate with only two double axels and a 3S<. She had a massive score difference between the silver medalist Alexia, who had a 3T and 3S fully rotated. She was a more artistic skater who Frank coached, so naturally shed get these scores. The same year, a girl with no 2A in Juvenile won nationals at against two of skaters with two 2As. Emily Chan won novice in 2015, with very mature programs and only two triples. In intermediate, a girl with no triples or double axels beat out several ladies with 2As and triples to win a bronze medal. She as also very artistic, and judges inflating her scores above them. In all these cases, the winner struggled with consistency in the future. However, the long term effect, was for coaches to stop focusing on training higher level jumps and fixate on delivering artistic programs. The year after the girl with no 2A won juvenile, only one girl at nationals attempted a 2A. All the rest, including the entire podium competed with strictly doubles.

After USFS instituted the bonus system, more ladies are developing jumps sooner. Girls compete with way more triples earlier than before. It’s why this argument about JGP spots happened in the first place, the 1st year juniors are more competitive because they worked on their triples sooner. In 2015, before the system was implemented a new junior could expected to average around 140. In 2016, the year after the bonus system was implemented, there was one junior that scored a 155. This year, several girls are scoring around the 165 mark already. You can also see that the US managed to get back on the podium at JW last year. The field is getting deeper and more competitive as a result of just giving bonuses for attempting more triples and triple triple combos.

Over the last four years, USFS has made great strides in improving developmental skaters. They created camps, this new North American competition system, the bonus system, better choices with the JGP selection, etc. But they can always do much. In Korea, post Yuna the field was quite shallow as well. However, their qualification system, while flawed, has lead to more talented and competitive ladies spring up that are trouncing US consistently. Eunsoo is the first to medal at a GP event since Yuna. Yelim is the first to make the JGP final. Clearly Young having a 3A in itself is a huge acheivement. However, she was strong and consistent enough to beat Karen at Philly International They did this by bringing these ladies together and having them compete for a chance to be on the JPG. Even though those three have moved on to seniors, there are still very competitive ladies that are still emerging in the junior ranks all because they have a consistent system that challenges them to be better competitors.

I don’t mean that girls don’t take their skating seriously. I mean that because they don’t have strong competition in these small club comps, they and their coaches are less concerned with a popped jump here or an occasional fall. However once they head to regionals, sectionals, and nationals it’s a different story. Their confidence plummets when they see competitive skaters. Skaters that looked so good just weeks before crumble in a fit of nerves. The JGP is the worst. Most skaters have never competed abroad and have never competed against Russian, Japanese or Korean skaters. It’s a completely shock to see how far behind they are in comparison. Having a test skate would help immensely. It would force them to be ready and have their jumps more consistent earlier. It would root out the nervy skaters and force them to deal with their nerves. Imagine if there are three ladies competing for a JGP spot and there are only one left. before had they all scored a 165, so who knows who would be better. They get put in a competition together. Skater A had good results before but is inconsistent. She competes and scores 10 points lower than she had before. Skater B is consistent but score lower because she lacks speed and high level jump combos. Skater C is super talented but is a very nervous competitor, she bombs here short but rallies in the FS to get 2nd place. The most consistent skater wins, leaving the other two to stay home much to their frustration. Both skater A and C decide to improve their skills so they won’t lose again. Skater A improves her consistency. Skater C works hard and conquers her nerves. Skater B has a weak season the next year, but vows to improve her skills for the next season.

If this sounds familiar. That’s pretty much what happened with Pooja, Hanna, and Ting. Pooja got a silver medal at Jr. Nationals for her consistency. However, next year, Hanna became the US Pewter medalist and Ting is a world bronze medalist. That’s what I mean by taking the sport more seriously. If you have something to lose, something as coveted as JGP, skaters will work harder to get it.

I’ve seen this happen time and time again. Like in 2012 when Ally Raisman lost out on an all around medal on a technicality. She committed herself to getting on the team again and coming back stronger. Now she has a silver medal from Rio. Teams that just lost out in winning a championship, committing themselves and winning in the next season. Losing can be a strong motivator to improve for the future. It’s not a silver bullet, but it is something that can help many girls.

Are they many other things USFS needs to do? Absolutely. Improving judging and tech controllers, for a start. However, I am completely firm that we need test skating prior to the season for JGP and non-GP skaters who are vying for their federation to chose them for an international spot.
 
Just to be clear then, what you want is a system more or less like that of South Korea, rather than Russia. South Korea has a selection event where the top x ladies get 2 spots then the next y ladies get 1. Scores and protocols are released and they go by the placements. Then they are all given their assignments, and they don't switch skaters around. In Russia, there is no set result at test skates that says certain skaters will get 2 spots. They do score them, but they don't release scores or protocols and they don't as far as I know automatically go by who had the best scores. Getting 2 spots depends on how you perform at your first one. They switch skaters around often, so it's not like they necessarily know way ahead of time where they'll be skating. And I have no idea if they have a set list of who's next as an alternate, but we know they'll sometimes see a good result at an event after test skates and give that skater a spot (which is how Alena Kostornaya ended up on the JGP in 2017). And the Russian event is in August obviously, whereas the South Korean one is in July.

Since people keep bringing up Russia as an example, I thought it would be worth clarifying that what you want is quite different than what they do.


Yes, I want a system like Korea. Russia already has their spots chosen before the test skates. The depth in their ladies means they can afford to take away spots. Korea doesn’t have that luxury. In my opinion it’s paying off.
 
Skaters do not magically improve in confidence and skill because they need to “work harder”. Skaters do not say, oopsy daisy, been ignoring that jump for years, but now I’d better just buckle on down because of a qualifying competition.:confused:

Correlation is not causation.

I believe there should be transparency, and criteria should for the most part be transparent. But definitely NOT check the boxes, get this jump, here’s your ticket transparency.

And I’ve been watching skating since 71 and men’s juniors since 2014, where I can come up with quite a few “qualifying comps don’t toughen your nerves or make you work harder” stories.

But this is not that thread:biggrin:
 
Yes, I want a system like Korea. Russia already has their spots chosen before the test skates. The depth in their ladies means they can afford to take away spots. Korea doesn’t have that luxury. In my opinion it’s paying off.

I think Korea’s system is too much. I think the skaters get way exhausted from all the extra competitions and it shows by season’s end. They don’t need separate ranking competitions for 4CC and Worlds, for one. Not to mention all the travel for those who train overseas.

Jun is a prime example of this. Not only did he have to go to all the ranking comps he also had to do a bunch of extra domestic comps to get into college, which is ridiculous considering his strong international results — you’re telling me a GPF medal isn’t good enough? :scratch2: He was so exhausted by Worlds.

I’m not against qualifying competitions and think they’re a good idea but Korea can stand to have fewer of them.
 
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I agree with @El Henry to a large extent. How is a test skate different from these comps that are supposedly THE ones that matter (Glacier, Detroit, Broadmoor, etc.)? USFS supposedly set up the new NQS system to allow more opportunity at a lesser cost — less need to travel, with greater parity across comps in terms of judging/tech quality— so that they'd encourage a larger pool of talent to bubble up and be seen. A test skate would be just another Broadmoor or Glacier or Detroit, IMHO.

I think one big way to push things along would be this: Set certain requirements for the Junior level of competition (for SP, the combo must be a triple-triple. For the FS, must include two triple-triples). Publish all protocols and HAVE OFFICIAL VIDEO for all Junior level comps. Include some non-U.S. ISU judges in the junior comps (OK, that's probably unrealistic).
 
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Skaters do not magically improve in confidence and skill because they need to “work harder”. Skaters do not say, oopsy daisy, been ignoring that jump for years, but now I’d better just buckle on down because of a qualifying competition.:confused:

Correlation is not causation.

I believe there should be transparency, and criteria should for the most part be transparent. But definitely NOT check the boxes, get this jump, here’s your ticket transparency.

And I’ve been watching skating since 71 and men’s juniors since 2014, where I can come up with quite a few “qualifying comps don’t toughen your nerves or make you work harder” stories.

But this is not that thread:biggrin:

I thought you were leaving.

The point is that even thought not all skaters will figure it out, some will and they will be much better for it. The ones that don't improve aren't true competitors anyway and this system will flush them out faster so the federation doesn't waste time on them.

I've seen time and time again how losing makes champions. Scott Hamilton, Tai and Randy, Michelle Kwan, Mirai Nagasu, Ashley Wagner, Tara Lapinski, and more have all achieve greatness because at one point of there career they lost and it forced them to become better. That the current them was not enough. When Nathan got third at nationals in 2016, he challenged himself to learn more quads and is now a two time world champ. It works. It may not help all the inconsistent head cases in the world, but it will help a few of them and the rest can find something else to do.
 
I agree with @El Henry to a large extent. How is a test skate different from these comps that are supposedly THE ones that matter (Glacier, Detroit, Broadmoor, etc.)? USFS supposedly set up the new NQS system to allow more opportunity at a lesser cost — less need to travel, with greater parity across comps in terms of judging/tech quality— so that they'd encourage a larger pool of talent to bubble up and be seen. A test skate would be just another Broadmoor or Glacier or Detroit, IMHO.

I think one big way to push things along would be this: Set certain requirements for the Junior level of competition (for SP, the combo must be a triple-triple. For the FS, must include two triple-triples). Publish all protocols and HAVE OFFICIAL VIDEO for all Junior level comps. Include some non-U.S. ISU judges in the junior comps (OK, that's probably unrealistic).

It dilutes the competition and makes it less mentally challenging to compete against just one or two equally good skaters rather than 7 or 8. Not to mention different judges, altitudes, ice quality, and some people may be too used to the rink because they live there. It's best to get the skaters on equal footing and compete where it's much harder to win. Then their nerves will kick it and for some will make it harder to perform. The ones that can handle it will be obvious.


I think Korea’s system is too much. I think the skaters get way exhausted from all the extra competitions and it shows by season’s end. They don’t need separate ranking competitions for 4CC and Worlds, for one. Not to mention all the travel for those who train overseas.

Jun is a prime example of this. Not only did he have to go to all the ranking comps he also had to do a bunch of extra domestic comps to get into college, which is ridiculous considering his strong international results — you’re telling me a GPF medal isn’t good enough? :scratch2: He was so exhausted by Worlds.

I’m not against qualifying competitions and think they’re a good idea but Korea can stand to have fewer of them.

I don't want a full system like Korea. I agree that there are too many competitions. I'm still mad about last year. I just think a test skate only for JGP and JW are good ideas for the US.
 
@frida80, not quoting your post here due to length (my own post is long enough!) but thanks for your thoughts. I should start by saying that I’m all for anything that will help our skaters focus, improve, grow, and become more competitive, including a test skate. But I’m not sure all the problems you’ve identified are best solved by a test skate.

It does appear from what you’ve described that in 2016, USFS may not have had a good handle on strategy. I don’t know if that’s still the case. But if seeing all of their potential JGP skaters together in one place at one competition would help them with selection strategy, then yeah, they should do it.

That said, it seems to me that if a skater is unprepared, unfocused, or unmotivated, that’s down to the skater and her coach. In my view, skaters should be internally motivated to improve, to always do their best, and to be prepared for both known assignments and last minute opportunities. To the extent they lack that motivation, my guess is that they won’t go very far. I feel the same way about the junior/senior programs issue. If you know you’re being considered for a JGP spot, whose responsibility is it to get those junior programs out there? I think it’s the skater’s. And quite honestly, I’ve been a bit surprised to see some kids who know they’re JGP bound this season competing mostly as seniors this summer.

Finally, with regard to inconsistent scoring that ignores tech issues and inflates PCS, I don’t think that’s confined to summer club comps - it regularly happens at nationals and not infrequently at international competitions. I also think skaters and coaches should know what they need to fix, even if an under rotation goes uncalled or PCS is inflated. I do think that inconsistent scoring is a problem if USFS is relying solely on scores obtained at different comps at different times of year to make assignments. But if these kids are also getting monitored at summer comps, even different ones, USFS should have a pretty good idea of how closely those scores correspond to international reality and be able to make decisions accordingly.

Anyway, JMO.
 
Can we talk about the Cranberry Open or something else? There are some US ladies competing right now, I’m sure, let’s talk about them. Are any of them A-listers? Are any of them skating to interesting music choices?

Also, Bradie hasn’t released her sp music yet. Any guesses on what it could be?

And, could Hanna Harrell make the top 3 at the first jgp event? Who is going with her to France?
 
Can we talk about the Cranberry Open or something else? There are some US ladies competing right now, I’m sure, let’s talk about them. Are any of them A-listers? Are any of them skating to interesting music choices?

Also, Bradie hasn’t released her sp music yet. Any guesses on what it could be?

And, could Hanna Harrell make the top 3 at the first jgp event? Who is going with her to France?

I think Hanna could be in top 3 she should definitely make top 5.
 
@frida80, not quoting your post here due to length (my own post is long enough!) but thanks for your thoughts. I should start by saying that I’m all for anything that will help our skaters focus, improve, grow, and become more competitive, including a test skate. But I’m not sure all the problems you’ve identified are best solved by a test skate.

It does appear from what you’ve described that in 2016, USFS may not have had a good handle on strategy. I don’t know if that’s still the case. But if seeing all of their potential JGP skaters together in one place at one competition would help them with selection strategy, then yeah, they should do it.

That said, it seems to me that if a skater is unprepared, unfocused, or unmotivated, that’s down to the skater and her coach. In my view, skaters should be internally motivated to improve, to always do their best, and to be prepared for both known assignments and last minute opportunities. To the extent they lack that motivation, my guess is that they won’t go very far. I feel the same way about the junior/senior programs issue. If you know you’re being considered for a JGP spot, whose responsibility is it to get those junior programs out there? I think it’s the skater’s. And quite honestly, I’ve been a bit surprised to see some kids who know they’re JGP bound this season competing mostly as seniors this summer.

Finally, with regard to inconsistent scoring that ignores tech issues and inflates PCS, I don’t think that’s confined to summer club comps - it regularly happens at nationals and not infrequently at international competitions. I also think skaters and coaches should know what they need to fix, even if an under rotation goes uncalled or PCS is inflated. I do think that inconsistent scoring is a problem if USFS is relying solely on scores obtained at different comps at different times of year to make assignments. But if these kids are also getting monitored at summer comps, even different ones, USFS should have a pretty good idea of how closely those scores correspond to international reality and be able to make decisions accordingly.

Anyway, JMO.

I’m being 100% serious when I say thank you for the way you framed your response. It just made me realize how rude I’ve been coming off for the last few days. I’ve been inactive for a few months and forgot that keeping this formal pleasant is the most important thing. :)

No more dissertation post from me. I’ll just say, your 100% right that coaches, parents and skaters themselves need to motivate themselves. However, our current system creates big fish in small ponds. Increase the size of the pond and the number of big fish, and eventually you’ll know who the true big fish is.

USFS is very flawed, all federations have them. A test skate won’t fix all of the problems, but it as a part of number of reforms it can make US skaters more competitive in the fall and in the future.
 
My theory is that the fundamental problem (if you call it a problem) has little to do with the selection system, but the training at younger age. I remember watching a short documentary from the Olympic channel that featured You Yong when she was 10 years old. She skated 10 hours each day. 10 hours at 10 years old, oh my (I can't imagine myself working 10 hours everyday)! But then in every other sports field, the 10000 hour principle has been proven again and again. To be able to compete at international, world and Olympic level, there is no shortcut. And also because figure skating is an early specialization sport, these 10000 hours need to be completed early. It would be enlightening to poll the leading elite skaters from Russian, Japan, Korea and also the United States to see how many hours of training they received under the age of 13. I would not be surprised if there is a significant difference in training hours between our young ladies and the Russian young skaters (in statistical sense, not comparing a few individuals).

I am not saying that we should over-train our young skaters. As they grow and mature, they accumulate training hours and they improve. For every skaters whose goal is to compete internationally, I believe they are fully aware of their capability and scoring potential in JGP or JW comparing to the top skaters. I don't think the skaters and coaches themselves or the USFSA are having any false impression of how they would compete internationally.
 
Let us move onto scoring potentials of our ladies inspired by the power ranking threads.

US Ladies Scoring Potential Estimates

Tier 1 (>200):
- Bradie Tennell
- Karen Chen
- Mariah Bell
- Alysa Liu
- Ting Cui

Tier 2 (180-200):
- Hanna Harrell
- Starr Andrews
- Gabriella Izzo
- Amber Glenn

Tier 3 (160-180):
- Rest of the US Junior and Senior ladies including Megan, Kate, Calista, Isabelle, Pooja, etc...

Also, here is Isabelle’s 4T from yesterday. She’s landed ones off the harness but they were either < or <<.

Link: https://www.instagram.com/p/B1AT0_ZDS2d/?igshid=bwzort3vh9ho
 
If Amber Glenn does end up getting the SA host spot (and I’m not certain she will, she isn’t the federation’s favorite) I just hope and pray that she doesn’t choke like she did at cup of China a few seasons ago. I’m so excited to find out who’ll be going to champs camp!!
 
If Amber Glenn does end up getting the SA host spot (and I’m not certain she will, she isn’t the federation’s favorite) I just hope and pray that she doesn’t choke like she did at cup of China a few seasons ago. I’m so excited to find out who’ll be going to champs camp!!

I think amber glenn would be a perfet fit in for the SA spot. She has that maturity in her skating that the others don't quite have yet. Hoping the federation does not give it to a skater who isn't the best choice but has a well known coach.
 
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