2020-21 U.S. Pairs Figure Skating

[skylark]

I'm not going to read all this garbage. They didn't skate well at 2019 worlds. She missed all three jumps. They don't skate well in general. They are lucky mitrofanov missed his toe or they wouldn't even be there. Its not disrespectful to say they don't skate well under pressure, its true.

Many people, in the last two pages of this thread, have refuted your opinion. Ashley and Tim have skated well under pressure, whether you like it or not. They've also had struggles. This is common in figure skating and in life. Look at the current Russian pairs champions, Tarasova/Morozov: they've skated well under pressure sometimes, and other times they haven't. In addition to Michael Jordan quoted above, many sports legends have said they've failed many times and that's played an important part in their successes. I believe Babe Ruth was the "King of Strike Outs" and considered that part of his success.

And I don't accept your definition of "disrespectful," when you referred to someone else's post as "all this garbage."

There are tons of posts on this forum that go into details, analysis, and opinions that I'm not always interested in reading. But I respect their choice to discuss those subjects and express their opinions.

 

[TontoK]

There are tons of posts on this forum that go into details, analysis, and opinions that I'm not always interested in reading. But I respect their choice to discuss those subjects and express their opinions.

Exactly. For example, people post their predictions of how a competition will pan out, and sometimes I wonder if they're even living on the same planet as I am.

But, you know what? Everyone has something (or someone) they love about the sport, and it's not always the same as mine. This back and forth about how they will perform will be settled in a few weeks. We won't have to guess. We'll know.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Oh wow @happycamper2554, garbage is it, when I bring you facts. You don't want to read my generous summary, fine. If you just want to disrespect skaters and you can't carry on a polite and reasonable conversation in this thread, you aren't offering much of value.

It really isn't about which team is your favorite or not. For whatever reason, you are negatively dismissing C-G/L in an overly generalized way. When facts and specifics are brought to your attention, you prefer to ignore. If you want to look at the sport so simplistically and view skaters based solely on their failures and on what happened lately without looking at everything and trying to understand the challenges they all have to face, that's your choice. We all have our favorites, and none of us are perfect or right all the time in what we say and in how we view skaters. But at least, take a step back and try to be fair in your assessments. But hey, If you don't like them, it shows. 'Nuff said.

@TontoK is right, we will get to see how every athlete fares at Worlds in a few weeks. And guess what, that one competition is not gonna prove one way or the other whether any of them suck under pressure, no matter what happens. The fact that any of them are at Worlds in the first place means they are way better under pressure at what they do than you or I, or any of us fans on the sidelines having the nerve to ever judge any of them dismissively.

 

[happycamper2554]

Oh wow @happycamper2554, garbage is it, when I bring you facts. You don't want to read my generous summary, fine. If you just want to disrespect skaters and you can't carry on a polite and reasonable conversation in this thread, you aren't offering much of value.

I responded to your facts. I did not disrespect them. I disagreed with you. The fact that there are 5 responses to my post seems to point that I am offering some thing to this thread. The original debate was whether they handle pressure well. I dont think they do. I appologize for calling your very long opinion garbage if that is this issue.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

^^ I differ that you are offering anything of value. Just because a number of posters are refuting your comments, does not make your contribution to this thread worthwhile. Quite the contrary. Not only are you over-generalizing and being dismissive of C-G/L, you don't make much sense when you claim that any of the top six U.S. teams at 2019 U.S. Nationals could have attended Worlds and scored over 178+ ahead of Ziegler/Kiefer.

Part of the equation is that Z/K didn't skate their best at that competition, which is an indication that hypotheticals are useless. Everything can change when different scenarios and circumstances fluctuate. The other glaring fact is that it doesn't make sense to suggest that scores received at U.S. Nationals can be directly transferred to Worlds competition.

In addition, it was mainly the top four teams, plus the 7th place team at 2019 U.S. Nationals who reasonably had a chance to win. But then not really the 7th place team since they were not at full strength physically or mentally due to injury, coaching changes and relocations that season. The fifth and sixth place teams at 2019 U.S. Nationals did not realistically have a chance to win. Therefore, it's pointless to dismissively suggest that the top six teams at 2019 U.S. Nationals could have scored over 178+ at Worlds. It wasn't about going to Worlds and scoring over 178+ anyway. It was about competing well enough to land in the top ten, which C-G/L did, and then some.

No matter whether anyone thinks the caliber of the pairs competition at Worlds was weaker in 2019 or in any year, the point is that every team has to compete against the field that is there, and the chips fall where they may.

ETA:
It's not a problem to feel that C-G/L don't skate well under pressure. The point is to try and be fair when you make that observation. A lot of us can become emotionally involved and/or disappointed in skaters when they don't perform up to expectations. Or, we may not be drawn to particular skaters and thus might harbor negative views toward them. Sports in general can be rather emotional for fans. I just try to take a step back whenever I can to try and be fair, and to recognize that there are a lot of variables involved in competition. I'm not perfect in my reactions and comments about skaters, but I try not to be personally disdainful or completely dismissive. I also try to take a step back to appreciate that what figure skating athletes are challenged with on a daily basis is tough and unforgiving.

 

[happycamper2554]

^^ I differ that you are offering anything of value. Just because a number of posters are refuting your comments, does not make your contribution to this thread worthwhile. Quite the contrary. Not only are you over-generalizing and being dismissive of C-G/L, you don't make much sense when you claim that any of the top six U.S. teams at 2019 U.S. Nationals could have attended Worlds and scored over 178+ ahead of Ziegler/Kiefer.

Part of the equation is that Z/K didn't skate their best at that competition, which is an indication that hypotheticals are useless. Everything can change when different scenarios and circumstances fluctuate. The other glaring fact is that it doesn't make sense to suggest that scores received at U.S. Nationals can be directly transferred to Worlds competition.

In addition, it was mainly the top four teams, plus the 7th place team at 2019 U.S. Nationals who reasonably had a chance to win. But then not really the 7th place team since they were not at full strength physically or mentally due to injury, coaching changes and relocations that season. The fifth and sixth place teams at 2019 U.S. Nationals did not realistically have a chance to win. Therefore, it's pointless to dismissively suggest that the top six teams at 2019 U.S. Nationals could have scored over 178+ at Worlds. It wasn't about going to Worlds and scoring over 178+ anyway. It was about competing well enough to land in the top ten, which C-G/L did, and then some.

No matter whether anyone thinks the caliber of the pairs competition at Worlds was weaker in 2019 or in any year, the point is that every team has to compete against the field that is there, and the chips fall where they may.

ETA:
It's not a problem to feel that C-G/L don't skate well under pressure. The point is to try and be fair when you make that observation. A lot of us can become emotionally involved and/or disappointed in skaters when they don't perform up to expectations. Or, we may not be drawn to particular skaters and thus might harbor negative views. Sports in general can be rather emotional for fans. I just try to take a step back whenever I can to try and be fair, and to recognize that there are a lot of variables involved in competition, and to appreciate that what figure skating athletes are challenged with on a daily basis is tough and u

I think Tarah and Danny would have skated better. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't this the fluke lift year where they medaled on the grand prix. Everything blends together. That is my opinion.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I think Tarah and Danny would have skated better. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't this the fluke lift year where they medaled on the grand prix. Everything blends together. That is my opinion.

If you'd taken the time to read my posts that you were dismissive of, you would have noticed where I discussed Tarah/Danny as actually being somewhat favored that year. They had a strong fp in Swan Lake, and they were in first by a few points after the sp. In general, at least 4 to 5 of the U.S. teams that year were vying for first, with 4 of the 5 having previously been U.S. National champions. It's certainly possible and likely that K/O could have competed well enough for 9th or 10th at Worlds that year had they won the chance to go. They were always gritty competitors, but every team has its challenges.

The Knierims had some extra challenges especially with Chris being injured, so they weren't competitive. Of the other four teams, I'd say that Kayne/O'Shea and Cain/LeDuc were fairly on a par in results and in how they were perceived. K/O and C/L had been 1 and 2 at 4CCs in 2018, so they were favored going into 2019 U.S. Nationals, and short program results bore that out. One of the questions was whether C/L would be ready after Ash had suffered the freak fall and concussion at a senior B in December. Both K/O and C/L performed well in the sp, with K/O being given the edge. Still, it was a competitive battle, and both Denney/Frazier and Stellato/Bartholomay were strong and in the mix.

Maybe it was a bit of nerves for K/O, or a miscue, but the freak mistake on the last money lift happened. Before that Tarah had a slight problem on a jump landing too, so even had K/O not made the lift mistake, it was still a tight competition. Making the lift mistake could have eased the pressure on C/L skating last. Or it just as easily could have made C/L tighten up and make mistakes of their own. Fortunately for C/L, they were in a zone of calm. They were able to concentrate successfully on all the visualizations they'd done together, since they didn't have substantial training time ahead of Nationals due to her concussion rehab.

 

[skylark]

I think Tarah and Danny would have skated better. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't this the fluke lift year where they medaled on the grand prix. Everything blends together. That is my opinion.

Yes, Tarah and Danny medaled on the grand prix (France). So did Ashley and Tim (Skate America) -- and they also won Nepala and US Classic that year. Then, Ashley and Tim placed 4th at 4CC, while Tarah and Danny placed 6th.

But if you want to believe T&D would have done better at Worlds 2019, that's your choice. It doesn't necessarily square with the facts if you look at how both teams performed over the season, but it reflects your preference.

 

[happycamper2554]

Yes, Tarah and Danny medaled on the grand prix (France). So did Ashley and Tim (Skate America) -- and they also won Nepala and US Classic that year. Then, Ashley and Tim placed 4th at 4CC, while Tarah and Danny placed 6th.

But if you want to believe T&D would have done better at Worlds 2019, that's your choice. It doesn't necessarily square with the facts if you look at how both teams performed over the season, but it reflects your preference.

What do you mean it doesn't square with the facts. Previous performance isn't always a good indicator. What happened to this being a place for opinions

 

[MsLayback]

My original post remains the same...as stated by Deanna Stellato at the press conference after the pairs event and which I confer with the field at worlds was so weak a US pair team making the top ten was a reality and any of the top six and for matter the knierims was going to get in the top ten!!!
Good for Ashley and Tim that they siezed the moment at nationals and were named to the world team...they went to worlds with the weakest pairs field in years, fell three times scored 193 and beat a score of 178 to be in 9th place.

 

[ManyCairns]

Hey @skylark, where are you? Pairs is the bomb, and we need to talk about it!!!

....

Meanwhile, the announcement about Calalang/Johnson mentioned that their withdrawal from Worlds this season is for personal reasons and does not involve injury. Therefore, it's either something in their personal lives, or else a decision they made that they are not ready to compete at their very best. I hope it was their decision, and not something decided for them. It makes me wonder whether U.S. fed may have checked in on C/J and on Cain-Gribble/LeDuc to see where both teams are at. I could be wrong. Maybe with Jessica relearning jump technique, it was her and Brian who decided it might be best to take this time to retool and come back strong for next season. I hope that's more the reason.

....

Hi, Blissful, I know you are usually in the know on pairs, but every version of the press release I've seen reads: "for personal reasons unrelated to COVID-19." I think it's the usfs release being disseminated, which is certainly appropriate. But for me, "unrelated to COVID-19" is not necessarily equivalent to "does not involve injury." I sure hope it doesn't !!!!, and it probably does not, but I don't read the original wording as assuring us it's not injury. Just the way I interpret the sentence. Have you seen other info that clarifies? (Again, I sure hope there's no injury, and feel for the team whatever it is they are facing).

 

[rollerblade]

But they could have just said "withdraw due to injury" if that was the case. The deliberate wording of "unrelated to Covid" is a choice.

I'm starting to wonder if they decide not to risk the travel to Sweden.... much like the 67 NFL players who opted out of the season.

 

[el henry]

My original post remains the same...as stated by Deanna Stellato at the press conference after the pairs event and which I confer with the field at worlds was so weak a US pair team making the top ten was a reality and any of the top six and for matter the knierims was going to get in the top ten!!!
Good for Ashley and Tim that they siezed the moment at nationals and were named to the world team...they went to worlds with the weakest pairs field in years, fell three times scored 193 and beat a score of 178 to be in 9th place.

But your original post didn't address whether Ashley and Tim performed "under pressure". The make-up of the Worlds field that year has nothing to do with whether they performed well under pressure. Was it more likely that they could place in the top ten? Sure. Did that relieve any of the pressure? No.

Donovan Carrillo came in ninth in the Challenge Cup, which had very few "top" skaters. . But he performed well under pressure to get his FS minimums for Worlds.

And Ash and Tim skated well enough under pressure at that Worlds to regain two spots for the US

 

[ice coverage]

... every version of the press release I've seen reads: "for personal reasons unrelated to COVID-19." I think it's the usfs release being disseminated, which is certainly appropriate. But for me, "unrelated to COVID-19" is not necessarily equivalent to "does not involve injury." I sure hope it doesn't !!!!, and it probably does not, but I don't read the original wording as assuring us it's not injury. Just the way I interpret the sentence. ...

But they could have just said "withdraw due to injury" if that was the case. The deliberate wording of "unrelated to Covid" is a choice. ...

I agree with ManyCairns.
The USFS language is nothing more specific than "personal reasons unrelated to COVID-19."

Yes, the deliberate wording was/is a choice -- and the deliberate wording does not rule out the possibility of injury.
I am *not* saying that I think the wording is intended to be an implication of injury. I think the choice was just to say as little as possible (which is fine by me).
Unless/until more official information comes to light, I myself will not assume that injury is involved -- but I also will not assume that injury is not involved.

My best wishes to Jessica and Brian.
And good luck to Ashley and Timothy.

 

[Moxiejan]

But they could have just said "withdraw due to injury" if that was the case. The deliberate wording of "unrelated to Covid" is a choice.

I'm starting to wonder if they decide not to risk the travel to Sweden.... much like the 67 NFL players who opted out of the season.

If their WD was based on concerns about risky travel to Sweden, then it WOULD have been Covid-related.

 

[blue_idealist]

But they could have just said "withdraw due to injury" if that was the case. The deliberate wording of "unrelated to Covid" is a choice.

I'm starting to wonder if they decide not to risk the travel to Sweden.... much like the 67 NFL players who opted out of the season.

That sounds like it would be related to COVID, still, unless they have some other reason to avoid international travel. Maybe they don't want to admit that one is afraid of the virus, has a vulnerable family member, or whatever.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Hi, Blissful, I know you are usually in the know on pairs, but every version of the press release I've seen reads: "for personal reasons unrelated to COVID-19." I think it's the usfs release being disseminated, which is certainly appropriate. But for me, "unrelated to COVID-19" is not necessarily equivalent to "does not involve injury." I sure hope it doesn't !!!!, and it probably does not, but I don't read the original wording as assuring us it's not injury. Just the way I interpret the sentence. Have you seen other info that clarifies? (Again, I sure hope there's no injury, and feel for the team whatever it is they are facing).

Yes, thanks. I read somewhere here or another forum that the withdrawal did not have to do with an injury. But that's not a direct source of information. Usually when withdrawals involve injury, that is mentioned in a press release, unless there's a reason to keep an injury private. By saying personal reasons, but ruling out COVID, it could be anything, which leads to a lot of speculation.

Oh well, I wish the best for Jessica and Brian. They have a lot of talent and engaging charisma as partners, so they should be able to figure things out and come back strong. I'll be rooting for them.

BTW, thanks for the compliment @ManyCairns. My knowledge of pairs is limited to having been a fan for so long and having good recall of events and performances during the years. And mostly I just love pairs skating, so I can speak about my passionate interest fairly easily, which doesn't mean I'm an expert or that I have any insider knowledge.

I know there are some fans who do have a bit of insider knowledge, either because they are former skaters with contacts in the sport, or parents of skaters, or they happen to train at a rink where they hear scuttlebutt or witness certain things. Often it is because of gossip and rumors, that certain things are kept private or announcements are held back for awhile or limited.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

My original post remains the same...as stated by Deanna Stellato at the press conference after the pairs event and which I confer with the field at worlds was so weak a US pair team making the top ten was a reality and any of the top six and for matter the knierims was going to get in the top ten!!!
Good for Ashley and Tim that they siezed the moment at nationals and were named to the world team...they went to worlds with the weakest pairs field in years, fell three times scored 193 and beat a score of 178 to be in 9th place.

Yes, well, your summary of how C-G/L performed does not give a full picture of the event and of how other competitors performed. As I said earlier, Ziegler/Kiefer who scored 178+ and were in 10th place, did not skate their best. Overall, Ash/Timothy skated better than Z/K, plus we always need to keep in mind content of programs and base value of elements, along with GoEs. Ash/Timothy were only a few points behind the 8th place team, Della Monica/Guarise.

Ash/Timothy did not skate with the cleanliness they achieved at U.S. Nationals, but their effort didn't suck either.

Regarding the characterization of the field as "weak," that's a view based on the fact that post-Olympics there's a transition when top skaters retire. So obviously, there tends to be less depth of talent, with a changing of the guard beginning to ensue. I'm didn't quibble about the characterization of the field as 'weak.' My point is that no matter how the field is viewed from year-to-year, whoever competes needs to be well trained and focused on delivering their best. Competitors are gonna be toast if they go in thinking, "I've got this in the bag, cuz the field is weak."

What Stellato expressed in the press conference was more about recognizing a window of opportunity opening up competitively, in view of the retirement of some top teams. If that's perceived as a 'weak' or 'weaker' field, okay. It still doesn't mean that competing against fellow competitors will be a 'piece-of-cake' because of that belief or assumption. Different factors always play a role in outcomes.

 

[TontoK]

No matter how strong or weak the field is perceived to be, there is always pressure, and athletes still have to perform.

Poor performances are how USA lost a spot in the first place and why Canada is sending only one man to Worlds.

 

[skylark]

What do you mean it doesn't square with the facts. Previous performance isn't always a good indicator. What happened to this being a place for opinions

You're right, my apologies. You're entitled to your opinion