2021-2022 U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[readernick]

It should make us worry for EVERYONE. Look what happened at Autumn Classic!

Yes, he is equally strict with everyone so I don't see anyone else having a huge advantage over Vincent. Vincent does UR his quads at times, but I wouldn't say any of the men's quads here are always impeccably rotated. Low scores, low scores for everyone

 

[readernick]

Oh boy, carrot soup
I'm glad Shin's judging though. We need more tough calling in skating

I agree. Tough calling is fair calling. I would be a Shin Amano fan except for what he did to Mao. ( I'm not saying he wasn't right, but it still hurt )

 

[Seven Sisters]

Yes, he is equally strict with everyone so I don't see anyone else having a huge advantage over Vincent. Vincent does UR his quads at time, but I wouldn't say any of the men's quads here are always impeccably rotated. Low scores, low scores for everyone

I’m especially thinking of young Mark Kondratiuk. Not that he seems particularly subject to under rotation, but—has he ever experienced non-Russian tech calling, up to now?

 

[figureskatingandrainbows]

I’m especially thinking of young Mark Kondratiuk. Not that he seems particularly subject to under rotation, but—has he ever experienced non-Russian tech calling, up to now?

Not really, just a few small competitions (i.e. Ice Star)

 

[mrrice]

Yes, he is equally strict with everyone so I don't see anyone else having a huge advantage over Vincent. Vincent does UR his quads at times, but I wouldn't say any of the men's quads here are always impeccably rotated. Low scores, low scores for everyone

I agree. As long as the judges are equally strict across the board, I'm fine with that. If Vincent skates his best, he should win this event. If he doesn't skate well, he needs to look in the mirror and ask himself what's going on mentally. We have seen him skate beautifully at times, and I still think worlds was 1 time failure. Going from a World Bronze to missing the Free Skate had to have hurt, and scared him.

 

[TontoK]

I agree. As long as the judges are equally strict across the board, I'm fine with that. If Vincent skates his best, he should win this event. If he doesn't skate well, he needs to look in the mirror and ask himself what's going on mentally. We have seen him skate beautifully at times, and I still think worlds was 1 time failure. Going from a World Bronze to missing the Free Skate had to have hurt, and scared him.

Absolutely.

I'm not sure why everyone is worried about Shin Amano. It's not his fault if skaters don't fully rotate their jumps.

I'd rather have a strict caller... meaning ACCURATE caller... than someone who looks the other way when he/she shouldn't.

People get worked up over 2-3 points of PCS, but wave away uncalled < and << as though those don't matter at all. They do matter, or rather they should.

When I see a protocol sheet with lots of <, I think, "Well, maybe now this skater will work on getting the jumps around." I don't think, "Oh, that's too bad, with a different caller, the skater would have gotten away with underrotated jumps."

 

[moonvine]

I agree. As long as the judges are equally strict across the board, I'm fine with that. If Vincent skates his best, he should win this event. If he doesn't skate well, he needs to look in the mirror and ask himself what's going on mentally. We have seen him skate beautifully at times, and I still think worlds was 1 time failure. Going from a World Bronze to missing the Free Skate had to have hurt, and scared him.

Vincent was injured at Worlds.

 

[mrrice]

Vincent was injured at Worlds.

Here's the thing about skaters competing when they're injured. I don't understand why they don't say that they're injured and give their spot away to someone who is healthy and could help ALL the skaters win spots. Fortunately, Nathan Won and Jason did well enough to keep our 3 spots. I remember when Alissa Czisny went to Worlds in 2012 and she was obviously injured. We lost a spot that year. I know that athletes think they can rise to the occasion but, sometimes you have to listen to your body and give a rest when needed. I don't blame Vincent for wanting to go to Worlds, especially since he was defending his Bronze from the year before. Maybe he didn't think it was too serious. Obviously, it was.

 

[cheerknithanson]

I know it’s only the SP, but I think Vincent redeemed himself somewhat from that SP at Worlds. If he just skates clean or enough for top 6 or 7, USA men are good to go.

 

[skylark]

Vincent's SP skate was absolutely gorgeous! He has a one-foot entry into his stunning 3A that had me 'hearing' Dick Button's oft-repeated warning about how dangerous a jump the axel is. His 4lutz-3T and 4S were wonderful, although Shin Amano did give him a "q" on both jumps.

I really like the commentator for Nebelhorn, because he mentions when skaters really showed emotions, heart and soul when skating. "It's not just about the elements," he said. And he was very complimentary about Vincent's qualities of showing emotion, heart and soul through his movement and overall skating. Now, that's a skating lover after my own heart. That's exactly what I've always loved about Vincent.

 

[Jammers]

I'd like to see Vincent scale the jumps back in the LP and be more conservative with Olympics spots on the line but i'm sure he's going to go for 5 quads.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I'd like to see Vincent scale the jumps back in the LP and be more conservative with Olympics spots on the line but i'm sure he's going to go for 5 quads.

While getting the 3rd spot is obviously of the utmost importance, also equally importance is Zhou establishing himself as a viable option for the national team, and team event, and an individual threat for the Olympic podium. If he skates poorly and gets the 3rd spot it is a successful competition for the US but not a successful competition for him.

At the end of the day, figure skating is an individual sport. And on that notion, while it is "selfish" for a skater to compete while injured because a country might lose a spot, they still try to take every opportunity they can get to compete because it's their career, and if they earned a spot chances are they will do whatever they can to at least show up. Zhou could have easily switched his quad lutz to a triple lutz in the 2021 Worlds and maintained 3 spots without needing Nebelhorn but he wouldn't have had any shot at the podium with only triples. He could have stripped the double 3 going into his triple axel or taken the Rippon off his quad lutz to make them easier, but he's not the type of athlete to play it safe to "set themselves up" for the freeskate even though that leaves points on the table by avoiding quads altogether - he is high-risk-high-reward and sometimes it goes horribly wrong if he's not on.

The same with at Nebelhorn, he probably could get the 3rd spot if he just downgraded to triples. But it's bigger than a 3rd spot. Instead of playing it safe in the SP, he made a statement that sets the tone for the season and establishes himself as not a mere spot-getter but a legitimate medal contender.

 

[Tavi...]

I don’t disagree with you that skating is an individual sport or Vincent is just as intent on establishing himself as a viable option for the Olympic team as in earning the spot. That’s fine. But IMO there’s a difference between being healthy and wanting to do your very best and look super impressive and place first by a mile (at Nebelhorn) and either hiding or not accurately knowing your condition and skating anyway, to the detriment of the national team you’re representing (Worlds). As to your claim that if he’d just swapped his quads for triples and pulled out a transition he’d have magically been able to skate clean and make it to the the top 24: I think your frequently expressed disdain for triples is showing, because you actually have no way of knowing that. You have no idea how much force his injury could withstand.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I don’t disagree with you that skating is an individual sport or Vincent is just as intent on establishing himself as a viable option for the Olympic team as in earning the spot. That’s fine. But IMO there’s a difference between being healthy and wanting to do your very best and look super impressive and place first by a mile (at Nebelhorn) and either hiding or not accurately knowing your condition and skating anyway, to the detriment of the national team you’re representing (Worlds). As to your claim that if he’d just swapped his quads for triples and pulled out a transition he’d have magically been able to skate clean and make it to the the top 24: I think your frequently expressed disdain for triples is showing, because you actually have no way of knowing that. You have no idea how much force his injury could withstand.

He went for a quad rippon lutz. I think logically speaking he would have been able to handle doing a 3Z.

Point I was making is that sure with only triples Zhou could have probably placed top 12 and with Chen gotten 13 points instead of having to rely on Brown. But without quads Zhou wouldn’t be able to crack top 5 (he just doesn’t have the quality/artistry of Brown to get away with lower tech difficulty), so he went for broke. I do think it’s quite insane though that he went for a quad lutz while injured and it might have made more sense to play it safer to protect his body but tbh attaining the spot is less important than trying to do your best.

Same with Nebelhorn - sure the spot is critical but for team USA it’s more important that their Olympic podium threat gets his credibility and confidence back. It’s all moot now because (not to jinx it or speak too soon) Zhou is back in form and will get the 3rd spot.

 

[ice coverage]

Unless proven otherwise, my assumptions are that before competing at 2021 Worlds, Vincent had made his injury known privately to USFS -- and that USFS had decided not to replace Vincent with an alternate.

(For one thing: If USFS had any reason after 2021 Worlds to "punish" Vincent regarding the injury, I don't know why USFS would have assigned him to Nebelhorn.)

 

[readernick]

(For one thing: If USFS had any reason after 2021 Worlds to "punish" Vincent regarding the injury, I don't know why USFS would have assigned him to Nebelhorn.)

No opinion one way or another about the speculation regarding Worlds in your post, but even if they are "mad" at Vincent who else would they send to Nebelhorn? They can't send the two reliable skaters Jason and Nathan. Everyone else is rolling the dice, lots of talent and lots of inconsistency. Vincent is definitely the safest choice.

 

[ice coverage]

No opinion one way or another about the speculation regarding World s in your post, but even if they are "mad" at Vincent who else would they send to Nebelhorn? They can't send the two reliable skaters Jason and Nathan. Everyone else is rolling the dice, lots of talent and lots of inconsistency. Vincent is definitely the safest choice.

First, I would point out that "Everyone else is rolling the dice, lots of talent and lots of inconsistency" would have applied at the time of 2021 Worlds as well -- reinforcing my opinion that USFS decided that keeping injured Vincent on the Worlds team was as good an option as replacing him with an alternate.

Although I agree that Vincent was the safest choice for Nebelhorn, some members of GS are of the belief that other U.S. men safely could have placed in the top 7 at Nebelhorn.
(ETA: For example, I think Jimmy Ma would have been in that category. He scored 230 at Cranberry Cup and 2021 Nats; and 233 at U.S. Classic.)

I will leave it there.
The point to me is that it also is mere speculation that Vincent did not privately inform USFS in advance of Worlds.

 

[el henry]

..... The point to me is that it also is mere speculation that Vincent did not inform USFS in advance of Worlds.

And it is mere speculation to posit that he did tell USFS about the injury he says caused his poor performance.

Both are speculations, and both can have equally good arguments for or against.

We will never know unless someone says.

 

[readernick]

Although I agree that Vincent was the safest choice for Nebelhorn, some members of GS are of the belief that other U.S. men safely could have placed in the top 7 at Nebelhorn.
(ETA: For example, I think Jimmy Ma would have been in that category. He scored 230 at Cranberry Cup and 2021 Nats; and 233 at U.S. Classic.)

I mean they very likely could have but given the summer competitions Vincent was the best choice. The USFS isn't stupid enough to risk it.

He did very well. He skated with a lot of power and honest emotion. Quite a few URs but it didn't matter given his competition here. Congrats Vincent!

 

[ice coverage]

And it is mere speculation to posit that he did tell USFS about the injury he says caused his poor performance.

Both are speculations, and both can have equally good arguments for or against.

We will never know unless someone says.

I agree that we will never know one way or the other -- unless USFS or Team Vincent says something (highly unlikely at this point, I would say).
I have never attempted to state my own point of view on this matter as fact.

Yesterday and today, mrrice and Tavi... have referred in this thread to the possibility of Vincent not informing USFS in advance of Worlds. Which is their speculation and/or assumption.
Today I offered a different point of view -- which I clearly labeled as my assumption. (Assumption as opposed to factual knowledge.)
Nothing more and nothing less.