4CC Ladies Free Skate

[Ambivalent]

Isn't it weird? This was a very good competition, yet right after Mao skated, one of the first statements was "Oh, huge - but I think Yuna can beat that! Do others think so too?".
You even get reminded about how Mao won't win against Yuna anyway, or how better Yunas artistry is (stupid question: aren't body lines, tension and stretch a good part of what is called artistry in figure skating?).
Yuna didn't skate here, and this thread is too discuss what happened here at 4CC. There are by far enough threads for people who want to go on a second Yuna vs. Mao battle round.

There was even the funny statement "Mao has seldom done 8-triple programms" Maybe I just didn't get the joke, but... hey, what an awful skater Mao is for not doing what no other woman accomplished in history so far, a 8-triple programm.

I totally agree with your assessment. Some people just have a hard time seeing the wonderful qualities in both skaters and turn it into a war between fan bases. As for me, I LOVE Mao going for her 3A and 3F-3Lo and with this sort of technical content she will be very hard to beat at Worlds indeed. Go Mao!

 

[MaiKatze]

Is there a chance Akiko keeps this program for Sochi? it may be one of my favs ever. I wish she would skate this to Olys.

I adore the O program, I really do. But I want her to have two new programs for Sochi. It will be her last season, the last time we will actually see her in competition, I want to see two more amazing programs for Akiko. It is such a joy to watch her. Her programs last season, especially her SP, were amazing, too. I have no doubt she can produce two more Olympic-worthy programs. Akiko & Camerlengo are a match made in heaven.

I know it is unfair, but I think it was the biggest of luck for Akiko that Miki Ando decided to take two seasons of. I honestly don't know what will happen when Miki returns, but Akiko had such progress in what for most women would be the final days of their careers. She probably wouldn't be able to get the love, if Miki Ando was still there. And Miki always looked so stiff and nervous, while, like a lot of posters here already said watching Akiko is so much more satisfying. I don't want to bash Miki, no, but these thoughts just came to mind when thinking of the japanese ladies. Sorry for being off-topic.

 

[hurrah]

Awww, I get that Akiko's skate is emotionally satisfying, but I do feel bad for Miki sometimes! She must be one of the most under-appreciated jumpers in recent figureskating history. One of the few skaters who could do both flip and lutz without any edge call worries, has a beautiful loop, great salchow, toe loop just fine. She was actually a better all-round jumper than Yuna, Mao or any of her contemporaries.

And she had/has a quad! The only female skater in history to ever have a quad jump ratified. Who cares if it's under-rotated by CoP standards. Find me another female skater who can do an under-rotated quad jump, will ya.

ETA:

If only CoP had gotten the jump value down pat from the beginning. Quad salchow is worth 10.5 with under-rotated quad salchow 7.4, which is higher than 3lz (6.0) or under-rotated triple-axel (6.0). Miki might have been tempted to continue training for a quad salchow, and figure skating history might have been different.

 

[Ambivalent]

Awww, I get that Akiko's skate is emotionally satisfying, but I do feel bad for Miki sometimes! She must be one of the most under-appreciated jumpers in recent figureskating history. One of the few skaters who could do both flip and lutz without any edge call worries, has a beautiful loop, great salchow, toe loop just fine. She was actually a better all-round jumper than Yuna, Mao or any of her contemporaries.

And she had/has a quad! The only female skater in history to ever have a quad jump ratified. Who cares if it's under-rotated by CoP standards. Find me another female skater who can do an under-rotated quad jump, will ya.

And with Ando coming back, one of either herself, Akiko or Kanako will miss out on Olympics. Sigh.

 

[hurrah]

The more I think about it, the more I feel for Miki. Those early years of CoP crapola really diminished Miki's career. She could have become legendary as the pioneering quad female jumper, but early CoP broke her will to train the quad, and now she's just a former World champion. Well, two-times World champion actually, which ain't shabby, but still, she gave up on her quad! I'm kind of upset about that because early CoP really gave her no other viable choice.

Anyway, I think I'm going off topic. Between Miki, Akiko and Kanako, jeeze, I don't know. I wonder if Miki's really gonna be able to make a come back after such a long absence?

 

[hikki]

Yes Mao deserves :thumbsup: for making the changes she saw fit in order to reach higher heights. I mean for heaven's sake, an Olympic silver medallist and two time world champion completely reviewing her technique and taking the falls for it in the past two years? She is a wonder.

Completely agree.

I don't have time to translate this now, but here's a great interview with Mao's coaches (Nobuo and Kumiko Sato) from May 2012 on their hesitation to take on such a big deal skater, Mao's slow yet definite process of technical reform, her new attitude towards skating (showing interest in other disciplines like Ice Dancing etc), her maturity during the tough times and so on.
http://hochi.yomiuri.co.jp/column/shirota/news/20120519-OHT1T00176.htm

So they were saying all along, "This is a 3-year process. Please be patient for just a bit longer. We will get there"!

I've gotta admit when I saw Mao in Nice, I didn't expect this big a come back. What a skater she is!! Just like I didn't expect Yu Na to come back with the jump content she showed earlier in Germany and Korea. The Worlds will be sooooooo exciting! The ladies figure skating is BACK!

 

[hikki]

She could have become legendary as the pioneering quad female jumper, but early CoP broke her will to train the quad, and now she's just a former World champion. Well, two-times World champion actually, which ain't shabby, but still, she gave up on her quad! I'm kind of upset about that because early CoP really gave her no other viable choice.

While we're going off topic...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2KRWFCiyKA
2008 GPF Miki Ando FS

And don't forget the 2008 Cup of China, the competition that I think killed Miki's 3lutz/3loop
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62IehJ8jovg#t=27m45s

 

[MaiKatze]

Awww, I get that Akiko's skate is emotionally satisfying, but I do feel bad for Miki sometimes!

Hehe, I'm probably the shallow kind who goes for "emotionally satisfying" instead of technically fantastic. But when I think of Miki Ando, her sad face immediately comes to my mind..... She often looked like she couldn't really relax herself, which is really a shame. I have no doubt that if/when she comes back, it will be harder for Akiko. All I was trying to say is that Akiko probably couldn't have had the recognition and respect she has now, if Miki hadn't stopped. Even Mao would have had a hard time remaining Japans number 1 in the last two years. Japan would have probably even put their money on Kanako over Akiko because she is the youngster. So she would have been Japans Number 4, and Number 4 means out of the picture internationally.

 

[hurrah]

While we're going off topic...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2KRWFCiyKA
2008 GPF Miki Ando FS

And don't forget the 2008 Cup of China, the competition that I think killed Miki's 3lutz/3loop
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62IehJ8jovg#t=27m45s

:scowl::scowl::scowl:

CoP at its most evil! Where the h*ll is the under-rotation there, huh? Who cares if it's under-rotated, eh? Those were beautiful jumps!

That 3lutz-3loop, just wonderful! I wonder when we are going to see a female jumper attempt that combination even, cause if that wasn't good enough to be ratified, what would be??

Early CoP really killed Miki's potential to make figure skating history. If it weren't for early CoP, she could have become a legend. I'm so pissed off.

 

[shine]

While we're going off topic...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2KRWFCiyKA
2008 GPF Miki Ando FS

And don't forget the 2008 Cup of China, the competition that I think killed Miki's 3lutz/3loop
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62IehJ8jovg#t=27m45s

Too bad there really wasn't much to see in her skating besides the jumps.

 

[minze]

It wasn't her first time. She skated it at the Grand Prix and Grand Prix Final and at Japan Nationals. She is undefeated with it so far. Has she skated it clean yet? I know she didn't at her Grand Prix events.

She changed the layout. I dont what you are talking about. But like someone said before people see what they want to see, when it comes to Mao

 

[clairecloutier]

I'm not convinced Miki will be back next year. Really, what is the point? After 2.5 full years off, it's unlikely she'd be in great form, and IMO it's quite unlikely she would get a medal at the Olympics. She's a two-time World champion; not many can say that. Maybe it's better to just leave it at that.

If she does come back, I'd be happy enough to see her on the Olympic team, as long as Akiko is on it too. I love Akiko and completely agree with the comments comparing her to Michelle Kwan. Like Michelle, Akiko has the gift of being able to open and share herself with the audience. So few skaters really have this very special quality. The spectators see and understand it, even if the judges don't. I absolutely want to see Akiko and her wonderful, joyous, heartfelt skating in Sochi. What a wonderful end it would be to her career, medal or not.

Kanako I find overrated and overmarked. She did not show one bit of expression in that long program until the final minute, when the jumps were over and I guess she felt she could relax. I thought her PCS were way too high, there was definitely home-country inflation going on there. She has talent, but in the end I think her career will be very much limited by poor jumping technique, and artistically there's not much there yet.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Did anybody of Ladies ever perform 8-triples FS?
I don't remember that any Lady did it, I believe it is first at FS history.

Another poster said that both Kimmie Meissner and Midori Ito tried it once, Midori popped one of her jumps, not sure for Kimmie but it wasn't an international ISU competition.
So if Mao would succed, it would be a first! That's why it's so exciting. Mao went for that layout for the first time, and for that insane content, I think you can't expect her to nail everything right away.

 

[Olympia]

:scowl::scowl::scowl:

CoP at its most evil! Where the h*ll is the under-rotation there, huh? Who cares if it's under-rotated, eh? Those were beautiful jumps!

That 3lutz-3loop, just wonderful! I wonder when we are going to see a female jumper attempt that combination even, cause if that wasn't good enough to be ratified, what would be??

Early CoP really killed Miki's potential to make figure skating history. If it weren't for early CoP, she could have become a legend. I'm so pissed off.

Agreed. I think Mao also suffered from u/r calls, and when I think of the splendid skating these ladies gave us, it makes me very peeved that it wasn't appreciated. The ironic thing is that, except for YuNa, there wasn't anyone better who showed up to benefit when those two "incorrect" jumpers were penalized by judging. Has this been a golden age of record-breaking advances in jumps? No, it hasn't.

I'm not the world's biggest Miki fan, but I admire her very much and like her as a person. She seems like a modest, gentle soul who works really hard (a trait I always have a soft spot for), and I'm sorry she was discouraged from doing what she does best.

 

[Icey]

Interesting! Did you read this somewhere, and if so, where?

It was in this USA Today article


http://www.usatodayeducate.com/staging/index.php/sports/figure-skaters-decide-school-or-skating

 

[mskater93]

They both fell here yet Gao still beats Gold... Gold fell at nats yet beat Gao by a long shot. You know good and well what the point is. Gold-flation is alive and well in the U.S.

Gold gave up 16.5 points technically here for stupid errors on her part (things she doesn't do in practice: skip the 3T on the combo, popped Lutz, fall and < on loop, only L3 on the change combo spin) in the LP. She would have blown Gao out of the water in the LP without any increase in PCS with those 16.5 points, even if Gao had landed the Lutz (-3) as she was only 7 points behind her total (and about a point in PCS with arguably a very bad skate for Gold). If Gold skates that clean, she's more than makes up that point in PCS as well.

Gao fell at Nationals in the SP too, and was ahead of Gold in the SP. Gold's tech content is unmatched by the US ladies when she's on, she just needs to figure out how to always be "on" like her LP at Nationals. And apparently, there wasn't too much inflation in Gold's PCS at Nationals either when she gets a 56.73 from an international panel for a crappy skate and a 60+ at Naitionals for a lights out skate. This was only Gold's fourth Senior international event and I would imagine being on practice ice with 2 World medalists is something new for her and probably distracting. Better to learn from it here at 4C versus the same mistake at Worlds. Also, only two weeks removed from Nationals and a trip around the world can be disconcerting...

 

[leafygreens]

I wasn't denying that Gold-flation is present in the US, but that's the case for every skater on home ice. Gold's FS at Nats was also miles better than any of the others, as evidenced by her seven-triple program.

Gao fell once with an edge call. Gold fell once, popped a lutz, got two edge calls, and had a hand down. So, yes, I'm failing to see your point.

Remember the SP at Nats?

 

[Icey]

Another poster said that both Kimmie Meissner and Midori Ito tried it once, Midori popped one of her jumps, not sure for Kimmie but it wasn't an international ISU competition.
So if Mao would succed, it would be a first! That's why it's so exciting. Mao went for that layout for the first time, and for that insane content, I think you can't expect her to nail everything right away.

I believe Suryay Bonalay did too and in that program also attempted a quad which was downgraded to a triple. As I recall many of the triples were not well performed.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

That first 3Flip was totally excellent. The second 3Loop was a little short but not < worthy. Zzzz.

When will people ever learn. WHAT YOU JUST SAID MEANS NOTHING. The point a jump lands means NOTHING unless you give a reference point for where the jump started. Everything exists within a circle. Also, 6:48 is before she even takes off for the entire combination, so I'm not sure what you're talking about to begin with. Both of the jumps in the combination were 1/4 short. A jump should get a deduction if it's more than that. Doing a clean 3Loop like she did on the end of a combination is a difficult task. Congrats to her, and too bad the scoring system doesn't care.

Oh lordy, you know I meant 6:48 is where to see the combination in slow motion -- okay it starts at 6:50 -- thank you for being ridiculous. 6:52 is where she lands the flip and her toe pick clearly hits the ice before 1/4 turn on the exit of the flip. 6:54ish she lands the loop and that is definitely underrotated. I know you're adamant about these things, but the video shows it right there. And if you want to use a reference point, then really, Mao under rotated the flip and loop even more because look on the 3F where her left blade takes off as she picks (it's already started to rotate, so arguably her landing is even more under-rotated), and look where she pre-rotates on the loops -- although it's obvious that loops are done that way, since you're bringing up this nitpicky reference point 'logic', the 3L was even less fully rotated.

As for Murakami's underrotations, I agree that the first 3F did not look to be under-rotated, yes (though calling it as clean wouldn't have affected the result). The second 2L in her 3-jump combo looked to be under-rotated. And her 3L was without a doubt under-rotated. (and even if all 3 were cleanly rotated, the result would have stood).

 

[Skater Boy]

We will see if Mao use the momentum to cnosistently land the combos and axel and get no underrotations. This will be key to beat Kim. I think Gracie and Katelyn will gain a lot of good experience out this - maybe Osmond moreso since she really does not have a lot of international experience. both have huge potential and could be in the top ten in their first senior year. This is more important for Osmond and Canada..