4CC Ladies Free Skate

[Ambivalent]

This is a video of Kozu demonstrating the difference between a lutz and a flip. Unfortunately, it is in Japanese, but I think you can still get the gist:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9_NLRbHWsU

Here is another explanation in English. It doesn't explain the difference in trajectory (lutz: convex, flip: concave) but if you watch it's clearly there:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tWmm4AKmgc

Yes, but I still don't understand why Miki's and Yuna's lutzes would not be called true lutzes? They have clear outside edges on their take off and by the video you've just shown me, force is generated also with the toe pick. I don't see how Akiko or Mao's would be called better technically...

 

[hurrah]

Yes, but I still don't understand why Miki's and Yuna's lutzes would not be called true lutzes? They have clear outside edges on their take off and by the video you've just shown me, force is generated also with the toe pick. I don't see how Akiko or Mao's would be called better technically...

Didn't the discussion begin with someone (not me) pointing out that ISU failing to make a full definition of what a lutz/flip is? Toe picks, ideally, should not assist generate pull force. Lutz jumps should, at least according to how they were classically defined, generate counter-rotational pull from the glide of the left edge in set up. The only thing the toe pick should do is to elevate the skater into air, allowng for the natural progression of the force which was created in the set up.

The lutz done in classic style requires so much more edge control on the part of the skater than the 'power pulled lutz'. In the classic lutz, it's basically the left leg that is creating the force required for the jump, whereas in the 'power pulled lutz', both legs work in conjunction; it's almost like a toe loop in that respect. Maybe the 'power pulled lutz' can become another jump category.

 

[Ambivalent]

Didn't the discussion begin with someone (not me) pointing out that ISU failing to make a full definition of what a lutz/flip is? Toe picks, ideally, should not assist generate pull force. Lutz jumps should, at least according to how they were classically defined, generate counter-rotational pull from the glide of the left edge in set up. The only thing the toe pick should do is to elevate the skater into air, allowng for the natural progression of the force which was created in the set up.

The lutz done in classic style requires so much more edge control on the part of the skater than the 'power pulled lutz'. In the classic lutz, it's basically the left leg that is creating the force required for the jump, whereas in the 'power pulled lutz', both legs work in conjunction; it's almost like a toe loop in that respect. Maybe the 'power pulled lutz' can become another jump category.

I see. I am not skating expert. What do the other skaters around here think?

 

[mary01]

They are known to flutz (i.e., they switch blade from outside to inside at the last minute before take off), using the pure classic lutz setup.

Akiko always includes two lutzes in her FP and has actually had some of her lutzes ratified, so she can get the job done. Mao, while she has had two or three of her lutzes ratified, I would say that those were cases of the caller being lenient, and Mao has never done a perfectly executed pure lutz in competition. She has, however, said in interviews that she can regularly nail lutzes in practice, and I have seen at least one famous figure skating specialist publicly state that he saw Mao do a true lutz in practice. I think she is very close to getting her first true lutz ratified. The one she did at 4CC almost made it. If you watch her lutz take off in slo-mo, she starts on the outer edge, briefly switches to inner edge, and then goes back to the outer edge. She was, in fact, on the outer edge when she took off! And so, clearly, she is setting up the lutz properly, as it should be set up. Otherwise, her edge would not have gone back to the outer edge.

interesting, i haven't paid attention to it, but it really wouldn't surprise me if it was like you said.

 

[hurrah]

TBH, the lutz that Taka demonstrates in the first link appears somewhat 'power pulled' as well. I guess most men do that because they possess that muscular power to exploit. Even Plushenko :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yEvVzq_uyA

He's got quite alot of prerotation going there.

And you know what, I've found that Evan Lysacek has a good 'pure' lutz (relatively speaking, that is):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbfhXScMxdQ

I think the one demonstrated by Tatiana Malinina in the second link I provided is a 'true lutz'. And I think, purely from the physics perspective, strong-enough women ought generally be physiologically better suited than equally strong-enough men to do true lutzes because they will generally have bigger hips and therefore can generate a stronger centrifugal force.

So in fact, if CoP actually started ratifying only the classical lutzes as lutzes and not the power-pulled one, only a handful of skaters would have ratified lutzes?

 

[Mathman]

I think Hurrah's explanation makes a lot of sense. What distinguishes a Lutz from other jumps is the counter-rotation. This is established by the long outside edge approach. In the case of a flutz, this counter-rotation is released prematurely. Thats why the jump is called, and scored as, a flawed Lutz and not a flip.

But as far as I have been able to discover, none of this is spelled out in ISU rules or official instructions to judges and technical specialists. It just seems to be something that "everyone knows."

 

[SkateNater]

Didn't the discussion begin with someone (not me) pointing out that ISU failing to make a full definition of what a lutz/flip is? Toe picks, ideally, should not assist generate pull force. Lutz jumps should, at least according to how they were classically defined, generate counter-rotational pull from the glide of the left edge in set up. The only thing the toe pick should do is to elevate the skater into air, allowng for the natural progression of the force which was created in the set up.

The lutz done in classic style requires so much more edge control on the part of the skater than the 'power pulled lutz'. In the classic lutz, it's basically the left leg that is creating the force required for the jump, whereas in the 'power pulled lutz', both legs work in conjunction; it's almost like a toe loop in that respect. Maybe the 'power pulled lutz' can become another jump category.

Both legs work in conjunction on both. Even in a classic Lutz the leg does basically the same thing. The only difference is that the take-off from the back edge is much shorter when you pull it, which results in a much easier to control take-off that is more conducive to multi-rotation jumps and much more conducive to jumping higher. It's also easier to take much more speed when gliding back on an inside edge and pulling to an outside edge take-off.

The LBO edge is harder to control, and that's why the other technique has become so much popular. On that outside edge, especially at high speed the body can sometimes have a tendency to pull TOO FAR BACK making almost impossible (certainly very difficult) to get around to the other side on the take-off (a Lutz is more blocked on the take-off than a flip). The easiest way to counter this is to roll the edge over and turn the jump into a flip, which is much easier.

But that's an issue that may go back years. Skating these days are different than when Denise Biellman did her triple lutz.

Now, skaters are being trained to have 5 triples by the time they're Novice or Junior and certainly triple triples by the time they're Junior. A lot of younger skaters simply cannot control that take-off well enough to do a triple off of it, so the coaches have a conundrum. Either they can change it to a BI edge glide and pull into the lutz, or they can let the skater Flutz or be inconsistent on the triple lutz. I've already given reasons why that pull technique is superior to the long edge glide, and when you put it into perspective of a younger skater who isn't as strong as an adult, it is pretty clear why that technique has become to popular.

Additionally, you can't do transitions into the jump with that long glide. There will always be some telegraphic with the Long BO edge take-off.

 

[SkateNater]

And so, clearly, she is setting up the lutz properly, as it should be set up. Otherwise, her edge would not have gone back to the outer edge.

Setting a Lutz up is not the same as doing one. Her edge changes, the same way Cohen's edge changes on her triple flip. That's an automatic 'e' deduction and obvious for the judges to see.

Actually, a chronic flutzer like Mao probably should try the power pull take-off to see if it helps her (maybe she has). She does have a pretty odd technique about her jumping though. At this point, I'm not sure there is much that can be done to salvage them.

Whether you pull into the lutz or not the trajectory is still the same, cause the edge is still the same edge. The only difference is that you aren't gliding back on that edge long, so the outside edge take-off is much shorter. Trajectory really is irrelevant to the discussion

Some flip jumps have almost a straight take-off, but they're still flips (most coaches won't teach curvy toe loops or flips as it facilitates overturning on the take-off, similar to the LBO edge on a lutz, which can kill the jump as the upper body can end up ahead of the lower - sometimes see this issue on Loop jumps).

 

[SkateNater]

Can I have some references which define how a lutz should take off?

Classic Lutz Take-Off:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucCMZffihRA

Pulled:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1fAA0_ZJUY

^ Chose that one cause the angle is perfect to see what we're talking about. Notice she's on a flat or shallow inside edge and then does a power pull into her outside edge take-off.

 

[hurrah]

Actually, a chronic flutzer like Mao probably should try the power pull take-off to see if it helps her (maybe she has).

She did learn the power pull take-off from Tatiana a season before Vancouver Olympics, and got one or two ratified doing it like that before she gave up on practicing it, choosing to concentrate on keeping her triple-axel and flip jump. (It was a most terrible season for Mao as she kept on losing what jumps she had with a small growth spurt she experienced.) I understand that power pull take-off lutzes are far easier to master than the classic lutz. Miki mastered hers in six months, I understand. Now, Mao is attempting to master the classic lutz set up. You may say that setting up a lutz is not the same as doing one, but CoP judges are giving progressively less minus GOEs on her lutz attempts, so it must be that judges generally see the setup as an integral part of the jump. Whether she will completely master it before Sochi is something that only time will tell. But in any case, even if someone can do a true lutz, they're probably only able to nail it maybe half the time anyway, as it seems like a totally crazy thing to demand a skater to do, to counter-rotationally generate centrifugal force that is strong enough to enable three turns in the air using only one leg while skating backward. It sounds more difficult than a triple-axel take off, to be honest.

Anyway, the idea that both legs are allowed to work in conjunction (to create counter-rotation, I assume, is what you are asserting) to achieve a true lutz is not supported by what is written in http://iceskatingresources.org/AnAnalysisOfJumps.html, which is written by Claude Sweet (USFS Gold Free Skating and MITF, International Dance Test Judge). He says:

The flip is performed on a shallow inside or flat edge. Some skaters have become sloppy performing their forward outside 3 turn into the takeoff. Instead of a 3 turn, they are performing an outside rocker, which puts them on an outside edge and receives an “edge” deduction.
It is a major error for a skater to pivot to forward on the toe pick just before lifting off into the air.
Lutz was named after Austrian skater Alois Lutz who performed the jump in 1913.
Today for a Lutz to get full credit in competition it must meet the definition as:
Lutz jump must start on a back outside edge of skate without and change of edge, the skater inserts the toe pick solidly into the ice and the toe pick does not turn on the ice prior to springing into the air and rotating in the counter rotational direction, followed by landing on a back right outside edge.
It is a major error for a skater to pivot forward on the toe pick just before lifting off into the air.

So the toe pick is not supposed to help generate further centrifugal force than has already been generated by the outer-edge glide set up. Its only physiological purpose can only be but to serve as a center point for the centrifugal force that was created by the left leg glide to aid elevation into the air. ...I think.

 

[SkateNater]

Both legs don't work to create counter rotation. They work on the take off.

And what someone whose never done a triple jumps thinks really doesn't matter that much. All skaters pivor that way on their take offs and none of the judges penalized them, because doing triples off a pure back takeoff is almost impossible especially if consistency and safety are a high concern.

Most skaters would jam their take offs doing that.

Skaters have been pivoting that way since doubles jumps were elite level content and certainly concerned triples became the normal.

Play all the videos in this thread in slow motion and feast your eyes.

The fact that one judge disagrees doesn't change the fact that they various advocating for a rather dangerous technique that would injure a ton of skaters. If ibwerw a coach I'd ignore that opinion. As a skaters, I surely do.

There are a lot of statements like this in the skating world from people who hide behind their credentials.

Additionally, something clarification is needed on that statement. The pivot that happens in a normal jump take-off is somewhat different from the way a lot of coaches teach low level skaters to do toe loops, for example. At the higher level it's more of a turn than a pivot and it's not an emphasized movement, just a side product of the takeoff mechanics.

That's about as oblivious as the coaches who insist a loop jump actually lifts off a LBO edge.

The total pick yes serves as a center for rotation on the takeoff. If you don't "pivot" you risk throwinbthe jump off trajectory and leaning back in the air. Also, it's too hard to achieve good air position jumping like that in triples or quads.

 

[SkateNater]

From that article...

       Salchow and loop jumps must takeoff backward to receive full credit under ISU rules that are now being enforced by technical panels. Some coaches teach their skaters to pivot on the toe pick until they are totally forward just before they lift off the ice. These jumps are downgraded.

Makes absolutely no sense and is dangerous. That article is worthless.

Since I'm feeling fun today, I've gone through and taken screen caps of all Mao Asada's take-offs from her Free Skate (except the second double axel, which has basically the same as her first as far as the take-off is concerned). According to that article you linked, all of her jumps should have been deemed Underrotated - literally all of them... Even the double jumps...

I'll post them in the order she executes them in her program.

Video Reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4Q57yTElew - Can Play back at Quarter Speed @ 720p resolution.

Triple Loop:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-...KYYyKA/s400/Asada%20Loop%201%20Take%20Off.png

Triple Axel:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-...ID06eeSs/s400/Asada%20Axel%201%20Take-Off.png

Triple Flip:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-...aU96FBhc/s800/Asada%20Flip%201%20Take-Off.png

Triple Loop (Back End of Combo):
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-...sada%20Loop%20%28Back%20End%29%20Take-Off.png

Triple Lutz:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-.../el48uO6U9_8/s800/Asada%20Lutz%20Take-Off.png

Double Axel same as the triple... Toe Loop back of combo:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-...0Toe%20Loop%20%28Back%20End%29%20Take-Off.png

Second Triple Flip:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-...A2Z7ooBE/s800/Asada%20Flip%202%20Take-Off.png

Doubled Salchow:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-...sada%20Salchow%20%28Doubled%29%20Take-Off.png

I think that's the order she performed them, not that it matters.

Some of them I snapped earlier than I would have preferred, but I wanted to avoid a frame skip. Point being, according to that article you're citing, every single one of her jumps would be deemed UR just due to the take-off, but that's simply not what the judges are doing, because any decent judge knows that it's not possible to consistently train and land jumps safely trying to jump going backwards - ESPECIALLY for edge jumps. If you're a really strong [vertical] jumper you can pull a Yu Na Kim and jump-rotate a Toe Loop or Flip, maybe even a Lutz if you're an athletic phenom - going backwards - but a triple axel off a straight line would lead to a ton of URs since you won't have any decent rotational energy transference, and Triple Loop/Salchow straight off a backward edge will probably eventually land you in the hospital).

The only jumps of Mao's that I would UR due to the take-off are the Axels. She has bad technique on the take-off and rotates WAY too much on the ice before she takes off. It's literally the only reason why she can even dream of doing a triple axel. With a proper (i.e. clean) take-off she wouldn't even be close because she simply doesn't jump high enough. The take-offs for her double is basically the same, however she has more than enough airtime since that one requires less due to less rotation in the element. Her Double Salchow actually rotated past forwards before she left the ice, but I chalked that up to coincidence since she did double it and that is possible the reason why she decided not to do the triple. That one I'd have probably UR'd as well for rotating too far across before taking off.

As for the jumps that look somewhat before forwards, notice the knee bend she still has in the screen caps. She's already that far, and hasn't actually taken off yet. Just covering that base.

After watching the slow motion, the triple toe loop in combination with the double axel is clearly UR on the landing, so the judges actually got that one right.

What that article states probably applies to the 1920s to 40s when most skaters did single jumps in their programs. Yep, I can do a Salchow or Loop single off a clean edge, too. But no one could pay me to do doubles that way, because concussions aren't fun.

And for fun:

Dick Button's Triple Loop in 1952. Note the Take Off Mechanics.

As for the Lutz discussion:

It sounds more difficult than a triple-axel take off, to be honest.

A Lutz take off IS almost as difficult than an Axel Take-off. Axel take-off is like a forward Loop take, off, basically. Two things jump out when you compare the two:

1. Axel is a forward edge take-off with no assistance. Psychologically that is more difficult than any backward take-off. Additionally, the Axel comes with the risk that the skater can let their weight fall back too far and completely destroy the jump. If you slip off the edge you will Waxel. There is no assistance. It is exceedingly hard to Salvage an Axel compared to pretty much any other jump.

2. The Axel has an extra half rotation over the Lutz, which indirectly increases the risk:

• You have to Jump higher.
  To jump higher, you either need some insane verticle jump skills, or you need more speed. To quote Kim Yu Na about her Lutz: "The faster I go, the higher I jump."
  You have to pull in tighter.

More Speed, More Height, Tighter Rotations = Really Volatile Landings. Harder to Control and very hard to check out of (having a good knee helps this). That's why you don't see many 3Axel-Loop (or Quad-Loop) combinations in Skating. The jump is rotating so fast and tight that it's impossible for most skaters to check out of it properly to put a loop after it. In most cases, they'd end up doing 3 turns out of the first jump.

The only ladies that have done truly clean triple axels in competition so far are Ito and Harding. I think Tiffany Chin may have done a couple, but I personally haven't seen them (I should look into that...). Asada's jump is so cheated on the take off, that with the allowances the rules leave on the landing her "triple Axels" often rotate (in the air) less than the average triple toe loop or salchow. Let's just hope the judges don't decide to crack down on it at the wrong time.

As for Asada suddenly fixing her jump issues. She will have to do the best with what she has. I think it's a bit naïve to expect any factorable changes in her technique between now and then. She's had the same funky take-offs and UR isues since 2005 in some cases. She only seems to have improved because she actually regressed quite a bit over the years and is only recovering form that regression (similar to Slutskaya's 98/99 years, except she came back with improved jumps and Mao just came back with a renewed fixation on a flawed 3Axel jump).

 

[CarneAsada]

whole post

Wow... that takes dedication. I don't claim to be any sort of expert on jump mechanics. However, I don't think Asada's axels are as cheated as you describe. Take this side-by-side comparison with Plushenko for example. Yes I know that's probably the best one she ever did in her life and she clearly skids farther than Plushenko but still, she does maybe 1/3 a rotation on ice and definitely does not "rotate less than the average triple toe loop". She certainly prerotated less than Evan Lysacek in this video for example.

Edit: And here's the slow motion from the Vancouver 2010 SP. To my eye, she certainly looks like she did at least 3 full revolutions in the air even if she skids a bit over a 1/4 turn.

 

[hurrah]

Wow, SkateNater. I’m not quite sure how to understand your motivation to suddenly start examining Mao’s jump pre-rotations from a discussion about how ISU should define a lutz, but nevermind. You are true figure skating fan. And I’m glad to hear that you think Mao’s pre-rotations are no more than the average, except the axel takeoff, which you claim is excessively pre-rotated. I don’t agree with that claim. Mao’s quarter turn pre-rotation is not excessive at all as CarneAsada’s clip comparing Plushenko and Mao’s triple-axel shows. Even Midori had a quarter turn pre-rotation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpJX7myU3Hc.

As for Mao’s technical changes, I don’t expect overnight changes at all. In fact, I think a lot of the technical modifications have already occurred over the course of three years: If you look at this clip, you can see some obvious and not so obvious changes in Mao’s jump techniques:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxP_5lKUDNs. It’s too bad the clip doesn’t show the set up as well. In any case, the proof is in the pudding, and the techical changes are already showing up in her scores. She’s earning more GOEs in some cases (like her loop which she regularly gets +2 GOEs) and earning less negative GOEs in some cases (like her lutz which got less than -0.5 at 4CC).

But this by no means isn’t to say that her technical improvements are completed. I think she’s still working on improving her entry speed, changing set up, and also achieving a tighter air position more quickly after take off, i.e., to coordinate her body parts even better. If you look at the loop comparison in the YouTube video, you can see that Mao has already learnt to snap into a tight air position more quickly than before, but Mao’s toe jumps are still a work in progress.

 

[SkateNater]

Wow, SkateNater. I’m not quite sure how to understand your motivation to suddenly start examining Mao’s jump pre-rotations from a discussion about how ISU should define a lutz, but nevermind. You are true figure skating fan. And I’m glad to hear that you think Mao’s pre-rotations are no more than the average, except the axel takeoff, which you claim is excessively pre-rotated. I don’t agree with that claim. Mao’s quarter turn pre-rotation is not excessive at all as CarneAsada’s clip comparing Plushenko and Mao’s triple-axel shows. Even Midori had a quarter turn pre-rotation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpJX7myU3Hc.

In the screen cap of Mao's triple axel, she is almost backwards on the take-off. She is WAY past a quarter rotation on the take-off, which is average. I linked the video specifically so that those interested in the context of these pictures can get that. She turns her foot out on the take-off to cheat it by quite a bit and lessen the amount of rotation she has to do in the jump.

When you add in that cheated take-off to the 40% UR Legally allowed in a jump landing (stating 40% cause if you're at 45 you'll likely going to get dinged, bear with me), it's a substantial decrease in in the jump's rotation (from 3.5 down to about 2.75 turns in Mao's case, while a man doing a clean triple Axel will be doing about 3 full rotations in the full jump if you subtract 45 degrees on the take-off and 45 degrees on the landing). Yes, that quarter rotation is a big deal, especially for a jump worth so much, especially since she never lands going straight back on that jump.

Mao's "forward take-offs" on her other jumps are normal. My pictures were simply to illustrate that. If the article you linked is to be believed, then the judges should have given Mao a UR on literally all her jumps, and the Axels should have been downgraded as they are closer to doubles than triples. Do I think she should be dinged for UR on those jumps. Obviously not. I was illustrating why I thought the information you linked was incorrect and not worth using as evidence of anything.

Plushenko's triple Axels are clean. To be honest, Ito had the same take-off issues that Mao has (excessive pre-rotation on the take-off). Harding didn't have these issues. She did her Axel using a technique practically identical to what most men display.

As for Mao’s technical changes, I don’t expect overnight changes at all. In fact, I think a lot of the technical modifications have already occurred over the course of three years: If you look at this clip, you can see some obvious and not so obvious changes in Mao’s jump techniques:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxP_5lKUDNs. It’s too bad the clip doesn’t show the set up as well. In any case, the proof is in the pudding, and the techical changes are already showing up in her scores. She’s earning more GOEs in some cases (like her loop which she regularly gets +2 GOEs) and earning less negative GOEs in some cases (like her lutz which got less than -0.5 at 4CC).

Her Loop is easily her best jump, when she doesn't UR it... Her jumping technique is flawless for it (the way she is able to jump straight up and maintain verticle in her jumps) and it's the only take-off that she doesn't have any trouble with, although it's a rather unorthodox take-off (when done as a solo jump).

But this by no means isn’t to say that her technical improvements are completed. I think she’s still working on improving her entry speed, changing set up, and also achieving a tighter air position more quickly after take off, i.e., to coordinate her body parts even better. If you look at the loop comparison in the YouTube video, you can see that Mao has already learnt to snap into a tight air position more quickly than before, but Mao’s toe jumps are still a work in progress.

I'm always rooting for skaters to improve.

Mao is pretty quick in snapping her legs in but her arms often lag, which causes the rotation in her jumps to be delayed. Whether or not she makes it around has less to do with how quickly she can accelerate her rotation and not really her maximum rate of rotation, which is relatively constant from what I've seen. Sometimes she is quicker than other times in getting the rotations up. When she's fast, she completes them, when the delay is too long, she URs, and she's able to stand up a lot of her URs because she is so vertical that she lands on a really balanced axis even when the jump has to hook on the landing. Ideally, both have to go in quickly and at the same rate. This is what Tara Lipinski (and Jenny Kirk, Rudy Galindo and Tim Goebel are two men who jumped like this) did, and it's why she was able to rotate clean triples consistently with 1/2 the height Asada gets on her jumps.

Again, as for me linking every take-off, it was to make a point about the other discussion - and especially since you cited a link written by a judge that stated the ISU rules are that jumps which pivot forward on the take-off are flawed and judged as UR. That article said this about several jumps (specifically cited loop and salchow in this context as well, which I quoted). That article is incorrect. Don't really care who wrote it. They are wrong, and it's been this way since the 40s and 50s, as Dick Button so elegantly displayed.

Getting coaches to realize that jumps do not take off backwards or off clean edges is a bit of a big deal as coaches who teach these backward take-offs are forcing their skaters to train elements in ways that are extremely inefficient and in some cases injury prone.

So yea, I do take issue (not personally, or in vain, though - nor do I blame you for it) when that misinformation is peddled.

My motivations are that I enjoy discussing (debating, heatedly discussing???) the technical aspects of figure skating, and I have a safety first stance on it. I think some people miscalculate how seriously some people may take information they find on web forums or Google. Don't want to go to the rink and see someone bang their head on the ice because they read in a forum they should be doing something in a way that is unsafe or not optimal.

 

[hurrah]

Well, I'm glad you weren't the one judging Mao's axel jump at 4CC, where she got +1.57 GOE in the short. You can assert that her new axel takeoff is badly pre-rotated, but if it were so extraordinarily bad, don't you think that CoP judges would have given her slighty less GOEs? Did Lysacek ever get equivalent GOEs for a successfully landed waxel?

And I tend to think that Tonya Harding's axel technique is strange and incomparable. Her set up to the axel looked like she was going to do a lutz. I have not seen any other famous textbook axel jumper, man or woman, do it the way she did it.

I think, fact of the matter is, most skaters do pre-rotate their jumps in practice than the ideal dictates. (In http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tWmm4AKmgc, Tatiana Malinina's flip/lutz has no noticable pre-rotation on the ice. Her lutz in particular is amazing.) I think skaters rarely successfully do their jumps textbook perfect, and so it would only be right to be dinged for a for a pre-rotation if it is particularly bad. Defining what constitutes a downgradable 'pre-rotaton' is probably something that ISU should clarify, along with defining what a lutz jump is, as well as defining what an downgradable under-rotation is.

 

[CarneAsada]

I'm sorry, but did you even watch the videos I provided? Those Axels have much more than 2.75 revolutions in the air. They have 3 at the very least, the same as the number of revolutions done by men with triple Axels that are "clean" according to your standards. You can do math by saying 3.5-0.5-0.25=2.75 but then you're ignoring the fact that Mao is not entering the skid perfectly forwards and leaving the jump perfectly backwards (to say nothing of grossly overestimating the skid angle). Indeed, if you look at the Plushenko/Asada comparison video, you'd see quite clearly that when her weight is fully on the ice, she's facing quite a bit more than 180 degrees away from when she was beginning the step up into the jump.

 

[hurrah]

Actually, my original assertion that Mao pre-rotates 45 degrees is not correct. She begins to swing her arm and leg around with her toes at a 45 degree angle to the direction of her body, but when she actually takes off from the ice, her body is more in alignment with the direction of her toe, as she has swung it around, so it’s less than 20 degrees maybe, that her take off is pre-rotated.
SkaterNater, as you seem to be such an expert, knowing more than ISU judges about what a correct jump technique is, you could have pointed out my mistake to me.

 

[SkateNater]

The Axel is badly pre-rotated. Really the video I linked to is the free skate from 4CC, visible in 720p rather high quality and allows you to slow it down to quarter speed.

These veiled attacks in defense of it won't change that

Additionally, don't tell me that you're glad I wasn't judging her when you were linking an article that pretty much said all her jumps should have gotten -GOE and UR calls based on her take-offs... As far as that's concerned, I was quite lenient on her, I think... Midori Ito did the same thing on her 3A. Tonya Harding didn't. I will have screen caps of Plushenko's 3A up soon to clear that up.

I'm well aware of the mechanics of the Axel jump. I do them. I know where the take-off is supposed to lift off of the ice. She's doing like 2 3/4 rotation for the jump on most and close to that on practically all of them.

When I examine jumps like this I don't do it in real time, cause the judges don't do that either. They use slow motion, they often look at it several times, and there are is more than one judge at the table debating those calls. The idea that one person is sitting back then deciding whether jumps are fully around or not is kind of an exaggeration.

Plushenko's Take-Off - Quarter Turn:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-...toKMxCeA/s800/Plushenko%20Axel%20Take-Off.png

Plushenko's Landing - Straight Back, Rotation Finished Before Touchdown; No Hook At All, so even if he had gone a bit more past a quarter on the take-off (which I'd personally still deduct), he still has noticeably more rotation in the jump than Asada/Ito:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-...bEvLG9q8A/s800/Plushenko%20Axel%20Landing.png

I took this one from his 2013 Russian Nationals SP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5KHRGyPAWA

The fact that the judges are willing to overlook technical faults is not up for debate, and unsurprising. Sarah Hughes got to be Olympic Champion precisely because of that.

Just a point of clarification: You don't need to play favorites with me, cause I have no horse in the race as far as skating on that level is concerned. I could care less if Mao/Yuna/Wagner/Gold/Whoever does a flawless 8 triple program or falls 10 times in their program. I may wince once or twice, but life goes on for me and it has absolutely no impact. I'm purely concerned with the technical aspects as they're discussed in this thread, and it doesn't matter which skater is executing incorrectly. I just call it as it is. "The Judges gave her 1.x GOE" doesn't really hold much credibility in these times of dubious-at-best scoring...

 

[hurrah]

The screen cap of Mao's under-rotated triple axel in her free program that you made shows she is taking off forward . Had she landed it, she would have landed it facing the opposite direction. She didn't, so she got an under-rotation call on that attempt, but it was not pre-rotated. I get so annoyed by posters like you who simply don't want to acknowledge that Mao can do a triple axel. She can. And she'll continue to get more of then ratified inthe future.