4CC/Worlds & Weir's Withdrawal

[chuckm]

Chuckm, I've said it before, and I'll say it again - I don't see how Lithuania can be considered a skating ally of Russia despite being a former Soviet Republic. I think the whole of Drobiazko & Vanagas's career proves my point. I am also uncertain about Estonia - but I am not as sure about it as I am about Lithuania.

I do, though, agree with you including Israel into "Russia's friends" category - whatever may happen in the politics at large, the two skating federations have certainly been chummy to say the least.

I've studied the JGP protocols and agree with you on the LTU judge to a point. If the Russian team is clearly superior to the other teams, LTU will go with the Russian team. But if another team is better, LTU will go the other way. In a close contest where it could be either/or, though, LTU usually will go with the Russian team (but not always). The other former SSR judges almost always will back the Russian team (with +GOE and high PCS) no matter what the competition is like. And that is true even for the UKR and EST judges. It isn't so much what country they represent as it is the training they were given as judges back under the Soviet system. They just see the Russian teams as superior, period, even when they don't skate particularly well.

Call it a cultural bias, but it is there, and it is consistent.

 

[Ptichka]

Call it a cultural bias, but it is there, and it is consistent.

I guess I can live with that statement. My point was just that it would still be a fair judgment - just with the subjective element going against the given American skater(s).

 

[chuckm]

I guess I can live with that statement. My point was just that it would still be a fair judgment - just with the subjective element going against the given American skater(s).

What is unfair is packing a judging panel with judges who consistently support the Russian skaters even when they don't perform well. Each Western European, Asian and North American federation will never have more than one judge on a panel, while the Russian federation will, in the 2008 World Ice Dance instance, have a minimum of 3 and a maximum of 6.

And their collective subjective opinion operates against ALL the skaters/teams who don't happen to be Russian, not just the North American teams.

 

[fumie_fumie]

1 to 2 weeks to get over jet lag? I don't know about that. I've worked some odd overnight and weekend schedules in my time. (The perks of being a chemical engineer.) But I found that no matter how dead tired I was, one good 9 or 10 hour sleep - and I was good to go.

I was basing this on my personal experience as well. I am a software engineer, sometimes doing consulting work for Japanese and Korean clients. So I got to travel to Japan and Korea at least a couple of times a year. Going to Asia is not a big deal, but the jet leg does hit me hard coming back from Asia. I don't stay too long in Asia, about one or two weeks at the most, and I get to come back home when I barely get myself used to the Japan/Korean time. So, by the time I am back in Canada, I am all mixed up between Asian time and North American time, dealing with the double whammy of two major time shifts. It is not nice to go to work, and design a system/ or develop program after losing sleep at night, waking up three or four times. At this point, my software is very error-prone.

I'm sure there are other people who can deal with this better than I do.

However, Chuckm brought up an excellent point. If you have no chance of improving your standings or has already gained enough of competition experience, then there are guys in B team (i.e. Ryan Bradley) who can make better use of 4CC experience.

 

[fumie_fumie]

Can't you prepare for worlds in two to three weeks? Are you better prepared if you stay home and practice your routine every day for 6 weeks? How much better are you going to get after the first three?

Do athletes in other sports require this much preparation? Basketball players compete for 48 minutes every night all season long, then they have maybe 3 days to prepare for the playoffs.

Good question. You might be comparing apples and oranges, though. I think some skaters may benefit from having more practice time at home rather than going to another competitions.

Jeff comes to my mind. For Jeff to get even close to the Worlds podium, he does need to land his second solo 3a in LP consistently. He doesn't seem to have any problem with his first 3a in LP and the one in SP, but his fall or inconsistency in second 3A in LP cost him 4th consecutive Canadian champion as well as keeping him off GPF. He needs to have more run-throughs of his programs.

 

[MissIzzy]

Like Ptitchka, I think Galina has a cunning plan. But I couldn't say if it's to make this a transition year and go hog-wild next year ... or make a Herculean effort this year for Worlds. I can see reasonable arguments for either choice.

Susan

Didn't she say in an IceNetwork article they were doing things one at a time? So Cup of China was about skating a clean long, Cup of Russia they added in a three-jump combo, and he was practicing the quad at the GPF, but I think they called it off there because of his foot injury and put it in for Nationals instead. So we'll see another step at Worlds, possibly the quad clean, or in combination, or possibly at this point he'll focus on not skipping the planned jumps anymore? What they'll add next year it's probably too early to predict.

 

[chuckm]

The Japanese skaters who train in Japan, as well as the Korean and Chinese skaters, can use this 4CC as a great tuneup for Worlds. The travel isn't taxing, and none of their Nationals are as close in date as US Nationals are.

For the US and Canadian skaters, who have their Nationals closer in time to 4CC, the travel alone is daunting. So it's not surprising that so many of them passed on 4CC.

I especially don't see what's in it for Lysacek, who's already won two 4CC gold medals. He will exhaust himself to skate against a well-rested Takahashi, and for what purpose?

For Wagner, it's probably good: she gets a chance to compete at a lesser ISU Championship before debuting at Worlds. For Hacker, it's her first time on the Senior stage. Liang (who won 4CC bronze in 2006) would do better to stay home and practice NOT popping and falling on jumps, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Tonichelle]

Wagner 'debuted' during the Grand Prix....

 

[ae9177]

The Japanese skaters who train in Japan, as well as the Korean and Chinese skaters, can use this 4CC as a great tuneup for Worlds. The travel isn't taxing, and none of their Nationals are as close in date as US Nationals are.

For the US and Canadian skaters, who have their Nationals closer in time to 4CC, the travel alone is daunting. So it's not surprising that so many of them passed on 4CC.

I especially don't see what's in it for Lysacek, who's already won two 4CC gold medals. He will exhaust himself to skate against a well-rested Takahashi, and for what purpose?

For Wagner, it's probably good: she gets a chance to compete at a lesser ISU Championship before debuting at Worlds. For Hacker, it's her first time on the Senior stage. Liang (who won 4CC bronze in 2006) would do better to stay home and practice NOT popping and falling on jumps, but that's just my opinion.

ITA. Evan skated with flu and ear problems in St Paul, he should definitely drop 4CC for health sake. It's not wise for USFSA to wear out their national Champion before Worlds.

IMO, sending team B to 4CC would be more benificial for everybody.

It's good for Ashley to get some experience in internetional compitition, I hope she'll do well at Worlds (her 3Lz-3R is amazing!), but she has to correct her edge, so does Caroline

 

[chuckm]

Wagner 'debuted' during the Grand Prix....

I was referring to her debut at a Senior ISU Championship event. Better to put a toe in the water at 4CC before jumping into the pool at Worlds.

 

[chuckm]

It's good for Ashley to get some experience in internetional compitition, I hope she'll do well at Worlds (her 3Lz-3R is amazing!), but she has to correct her edge, so does Caroline

Ashley has said she plans to work on her flutz during the off-season. I believe Caroline has been working on it, but she has a double problem: flutzing and underrotating. If she gets the edge closer to correct, she tends to underrotate.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Ashley has said she plans to work on her flutz during the off-season. I believe Caroline has been working on it, but she has a double problem: flutzing and underrotating. If she gets the edge closer to correct, she tends to underrotate.

Chuckum - Given the small penalty for a Flutz and the fact that there will be no ties, is it worth the trouble? She gets full credit for the 'attempt' with an insignificant -1 in the GoEs which can easily be erased with good posture.

Joe

 

[chuckm]

Considering that there are 3 lutzes in the SP/FS, and the deduction can be as large as 1.5, I don't think losing 4.5 points off the total score can be viewed as a 'minor' thing. It could mean the difference between gold and silver, or bronze and 4th place.

 

[Kypma]

Chuckum - Given the small penalty for a Flutz and the fact that there will be no ties, is it worth the trouble? She gets full credit for the 'attempt' with an insignificant -1 in the GoEs which can easily be erased with good posture.

Joe

I doubt it can be erased... aren't judges obliged to give a minimum (or maximum, depending on your view of numbers... GoE <= -1) GoE of -1 to any flutz reported by the technical caller? Unless it isn't seen, I suppose.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Considering that there are 3 lutzes in the SP/FS, and the deduction can be as large as 1.5, I don't think losing 4.5 points off the total score can be viewed as a 'minor' thing. It could mean the difference between gold and silver, or bronze and 4th place.

I do not understand your calculation. If a total of 1.5 is taken off from the final scores of the 5 jumps isn't it in the GoEs only an not against the Final scores of the competition? I'm not sure if the minus GoEs are literally subtracted from the final score or if the plus GoEs are added to the final score. Help. I thought they were just 80% in some cases and less in others. (Whereas a Fall is a direct -1 from the said lutz. and is seen in the Final score)

btw. What is the final score awarded for a Lutz with a -1 GoE?
What is the final score awarded for a Lutz with a Fall?

I still think the risk is worth taking because the base value of the lutz is very high and more important it satisfies the full number of passes allowed in a competition. Otherwise a skater loses out on a 7th or 8th pass albeit with a deduction but better that than no points at all. Correct?

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I doubt it can be erased... aren't judges obliged to give a minimum (or maximum, depending on your view of numbers... GoE <= -1) GoE of -1 to any flutz reported by the technical caller? Unless it isn't seen, I suppose.

I really have to learn to speak more clearly. I didn't mean erase literally. I meant if the skater is given a -1 GoE for a part of an element, the rest of the part(s) can be given a +1 for being correctly executed. the result is 0 or no deduction but the skater may lose what could have been a +1, if there was no flutz.

Joe

 

[mizu_iro]

I really have to learn to speak more clearly. I didn't mean erase literally. I meant if the skater is given a -1 GoE for a part of an element, the rest of the part(s) can be given a +1 for being correctly executed. the result is 0 or no deduction but the skater may lose what could have been a +1, if there was no flutz.

Joe

But that's no longer the case. With the e designation, judges are now required to give at LEAST at -1 deduction for a wrong edge, regardless of how perfect the rest of the jump may be, and they've been very harsh on the more egregious offenders (Mao, Ashley Wagner...)

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

But that's no longer the case. With the e designation, judges are now required to give at LEAST at -1 deduction for a wrong edge, regardless of how perfect the rest of the jump may be, and they've been very harsh on the more egregious offenders (Mao, Ashley Wagner...)

I think there are posters here who told me that the rest of a jump with a wrong edge take off can be cosidered for a +1. Can we confirm this somehow.

Also how much of the -1 GoEs actually go into the final score? Is it a certain percentage? or the entire 1 point as it is with a Fall.? Does anyone know?

Joe

 

[Mathman]

Joe, here is the document where all that is spelled out.

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-183415-200633-121139-0-file,00.pdf

The edge deduction is described in the table of errors starting on page 8. For a wrong edge take-off, the penalty is "-3 to -1 GOE, -GOE."

That last "-GOE" means that the judges must give a negative GOE on the element as a whole, and cannot give a positve or 0 GOE no matter how excellent the other features of the jump may be.

The full value of the GOE is taken off. The number listed in the protocol after each element is the base value +/- the GOE. This is what is added up for the total score.

Base value for Lutz = 6.0

Value for Flutz, after mandatory negative GOE = 5.0 or less.

Value for Lutz with fall = 2.0 after all deductions.

Value for flutz with fall, after all deductions = 2.0.

Base value for underrotated Lutz = 1.9.

For a fall, there is a -3 GOE plus an extra -1 fall deduction. So the protocol would list a value of 3.0 after the element, then an additional 1 point is taken off at the end, bringing the total value of the element down to 2.0.

For elements of lesser value (double jumps, spins, etc.), a "-3 GOE" translates into a smaller deduction. The table for this starts on page 10.

So, specifically:

I think there are posters here who told me that the rest of a jump with a wrong edge take off can be cosidered for a +1. Can we confirm this somehow.

No. The judges must give a negative GOE for the whole element.

Also how much of the -1 GoEs actually go into the final score?

All of it.

Is it a certain percentage?

For lower scoring elements like double jumps and spins, it is a certain percentage, depending on the base value of the element. For all triple jumps it is 100%.

or the entire 1 point as it is with a Fall.?

It is the entire 1 point. However, the 1 point appears in different place in the protocols. For a Flutz it is included in the line score for the particular element. For a fall, in addition to the -3 GOE included in the line score for the element, there is also a point take off the total score separately at the end.

 

[Mathman]

I'm not sure if the minus GoEs are literally subtracted from the final score or if the plus GoEs are added to the final score. Help.

Yes, for all triple jumps the GOEs are literally added and subtracted from the score, in each line.

I thought they were just 80% in some cases and less in others. (Whereas a Fall is a direct -1 from the said lutz. and is seen in the Final score)

That is correct for elements of lesser value. For instance, for a level 1 camel spin the base value is 1.2. The possible GOEs are -1.0, -0,6, -0.3, 0, 0.5, 1.0, and 1.5. So if a judge hits the key for "-2 GOE," say, the software subtracts only 0.6 points, leaving the skater with a total score of 0.6 for the element.

But if the skater falls on his level 1 camel spin, that's a full -1 taken off at the end, in addition to the negative GOE.

btw. What is the final score awarded for a Lutz with a -1 GoE?

5.0 points. (6.0 base value -1.0 GOE.)

What is the final score awarded for a Lutz with a Fall?

It should be 2.0 in most cases. (The full GOE is not entirely mandatory, but -3 is almost always given.)

I still think the risk is worth taking because the base value of the lutz is very high and more important it satisfies the full number of passes allowed in a competition. Otherwise a skater loses out on a 7th or 8th pass albeit with a deduction but better that than no points at all. Correct?

Well, it's certainly better to do a flutz than to do nothing. But a skater with a bad flutz might be better off to do a good loop instead.

The only thing that would really hurt a flutzer is if they called the jump a flip. Then she would probably get 0 points because of Zayak violations.