GOAT=Greatest of All Time
Sheesh, I stand corrected!
GOAT=Greatest of All Time
I think Ashley has a better layback and more positions and I like her flying sit spin too. ITA, Kexin is better than both (the list wasn't necessarily in order). And yes, I meant Brooklee Han...don't know why I put Lee . She's a lovely spinner.
Elene G. isnt as strong in any aspect of skating as she used to be. I honestly wonder what she is still doing out there at times, although atleast it hasnt reached Suguri level insanity yet.
You are but that is ok. It is what fans are there for.
I must admit I never found Wagner a particularly good spinner.
I do feel Kexin's spins aren't quite as crisp as they were in the 2011-2012 season, namely Cup of China. Back then they were , now they're only pretty good. Elene G. used to have very good spins minus the layback, now they're all a little weak.
^ I think kwanatic values positioning over speed when it comes to evaluating spins.
I value speed/centering slightly over positioning, but all of them are important.
Sheesh, I stand corrected!
IMO Lipnitskaya and Asada are both still better spinners than Sotnikova. Meanwhile Yu Na Kim often got better scores on spins than Mao (unfairly most times) while Sotnikova is allowed way higher,which shows the difference of a judges pet like Adelina and someone who always had to earn every mark they got like Mao.
I like Mao's spins better than Adelina's as I find the positions much nicer, and I find Adelina's spins travel sometimes. I agree Adelina's speed is better though. I agree on your assessments of Mao's spins vs Kim then and now, and it probably explains why Mao scores better comparatively now, although I found her still underscored comparatively even back then. Kim's spins have definitely declined since her dominating days.
I like Adelina's contorted camel; even though it's not that pretty, I like it for being unique to her. I love her one-handed Biellmann. I remember when she was a junior she used to attempt a regular Biellmann but her position wasn't that great. When she made the jump to senior she started doing the one-handed one, though it took her a season and a half to get the hang of it. I remember several times where she'd lose speed/balance transitioning up into it and have to bail out. She's been nailing them this season though, keeping her center and not losing speed.
I do think Mao's positions are cleaner and more classic though...
Side note: during the NBC broadcast of the ladies event in Sochi, Scott kept getting on my nerves by saying he'd never seen someone do a one-handed Biellmann. Granted it's not a spin that's as ubiquitous as a regular Biellmann but I'd seen it several times before. Mao used to do it in 2010 and Zijun still does it (at that same competition no less), though hers isn't as good as Adelina's. I just hate it when commentators make dumb remarks like that. Tonia K. did the same thing during nationals by stupidly saying it's rare to see someone do an ina bauer in a program...after she said that no less than 5 skaters did ina bauers in their programs over the course of the night. :sarcasm:
Sometimes commentators should think before they say stuff. When they don't they alert savvy fans to the fact that they don't watch skating outside of the events they commentate.
I am more than willing to give Julia the extra points for the spins, which she deserves (when they are not traveling) if they lower the GOEs she gets on the jumps (she does not deserve the same GOEs as Yuna....)
I read an article were Eteri Tutberidzi is quoted saying that she finds it unfair that Yulia achieves positions and spins better than a lot of other girls in the field and how it gets scored. She doesn't think it's fair that other competitors can do lower quality spins and achieve level 4 and get 2-3 GOE. Here is an excerpt from that article:
I did a review of the GPF finals where Yulia and Mao faced off. Looking at the protocols Yulia's final spin which was well centered and received +3 GOE was worth 0.50 less than Mao's first 3a attempt which received -3 GOE across the board. Is it beneficial to the sport to award a botched 3a the same score as a groundbreaking spin that adds artistically as much to a program as jumps do, maybe even more so IMO?
http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1314/gpf1314_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf
The truth is when skaters perform jumps of average height with less flow as than a superior jumper, they receive lower GOE and rightfully so. I contend the same standard should apply to spins. In other words, level 4 and positive GOE are achieved much easier by an average spinner maybe even a weak spinner than in relation to a strong and weak jumper. By that I mean a superior jumper receives superior marks while superior spinners gain much less of an advantage over the competition that perform rather average spins. Does that seem fair?
Do you prefer Jumps to spins?
Are spins more artistic than jumps?
Is it fair to include spins when judges factor PCS marks and which ones?
Are Spins over scored?
Do spins promote originality that jumps can't?
I have nothing against Mao and just chose her 3a as a good example with no grudge in mind. I thought about pointing out bad spinners who receive less than one point less than Gracie and Yulia's spins but didn't feel it necessary.
I don't think we need to increase the base value for spins. Obviously all the base values are arbitrary, but I think in relative terms the values are defensible. The issue is GOE. For one thing, just like in step sequences, the level 3 and level 4 GOE should differ. A level 3 layback should not, even if performed beautifully, should not have the same GOE as a level 4. Level 4 spins should have GOE classes of {2.1, 1.4, 0.7} just like triple jumps and level 4 step sequences. But, then judges need to apply GOE correctly according to the guidelines. If the judges used the GOE guidelines, and with the higher GOE values for level 4 spins, then spins would be valued correctly in my viewed. Since I know the thread-starter, Sam-Skwantch, is a fan of Yulia, I'll use her as an illustration. In my estimation, Yulia's final combination spin at Sochi was the only spin in the ladies FS that deserved a +3 (her layback maybe, but if I remember it was slower than usual - I'd have to watch it back). Under my revision, that spin should have gotten her 5.60 points (rather than the 5.00 points it did) whereas Caro's final combination spin should have gotten no GOE at all for 3.50 points. Or consider Wagner's final combination spin which probably meets the +1 GOE requirements for 4.20 point, a 1.4 differential in favor of Yulia. I think a 2.1 point differential between Caro's traveling and poorly controlled level 4 spin and a 1.4 differential for Wagner's respectable, but unremarkable, spin with Yulia's beautiful spin is defensible and appropriate. I just think the GOE awards should be the same for spins and correctly judged - but therein lies the problem! The problem is spins, like everything else, are systematically mis-scored. Many of even the top ladies should be getting +1 at the most (or maybe 1.25-1.5 in an ideal world) and +0 should't be especially rare in the protocols. The only way spins will be probably awarded is if we have better judging - but good luck with that!