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Backflip

It is not figure skating. As simply put. MM did a great job explaining this to me once before - A couple of others put in some great explanations too, maybe it was 76Olympics and Ladskater??? But that is the synopsis I received from it. It is not showing Figure skating skills or anything of the like. No edge tech, ice tracings, etc.... Just not FS.

And as MM just pointed out, there is only one person that lands on one foot.
That's much too simplistics for me to say it isn't figure skating when a triiple twist is considered figure skating. I want to see where it is officially written.

It's not that I want it to be legal. I don't! but I don't want contortionist spins and throw jumps either.

(btw, it took a while before more than one skater could do a triple so landing on one foot just takes more practice.)

Joe
 
It's not that I want it to be legal. I don't! but I don't want contortionist spins and throw jumps either.

(btw, it took a while before more than one skater could do a triple so landing on one foot just takes more practice.)

Joe
Good points, It makes me think that it COULD be legal in Pairs. But as stands once people start seeing it (and noting how many I have been hearing of in the hockey world that can and have - just at the pond in PA) It is not nearly as impressive as a 2a. And it is gimmicky, telegraph personified and just not safe enough to have it be worth it anyway, for singles. But those are mostly MO.

The rule in 1342 is probably not going to give any "closure" either. it didn't for me but the conversation a while ago really did.

But that does make me think pairs is not that unreasonable to allow backflips.


What kind of points would you assign it? Where would it be "classified"?
 
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That's much too simplistics for me to say it isn't figure skating when a triiple twist is considered figure skating. I want to see where it is officially written.

It's not that I want it to be legal. I don't! but I don't want contortionist spins and throw jumps either.

(btw, it took a while before more than one skater could do a triple so landing on one foot just takes more practice.)

Joe

Yes, also in my opinion it is too simplicistic to say that it isn't FS! And what about the Biellmann or the Doughnout Spin, these are contorsionistic moves! It is in this way that things evolves (languages, sports, music) with borrowings, innovations. Also a spin or a jump at the begginig of the century were innovations. If I'm not wrong Cecelia Colledge was inspired by circus to invent some of her moves. Figure skating can't remain always the same! IMO, the only logic to make illegal a backflip is because is dangerous, certainly it is illogical if the ISU says because it isn't FS.
I'm not crazy about them, but if for example Shawn Sawyer wants to do it in his program, why he can't?
 
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Good points, It makes me think that it COULD be legal in Pairs. But as stands once people start seeing it, and noting how many I have been hearing of in the hockey world that can and have - just at the pond in PA. It is not nearly as impressive as a 2a. And it is gimmicky, telegraph personified and just not safe enough to have it be worth it anyway. But those are mostly MO.

The rule in 1342 is probably not going to give any "closure" either. it didn't for me but the conversation a while ago really did.

But that does make me think pairs is not that unreasonable to allow backflips.


What kind of points would you assign it? Where would it be "classified"?
First of all I do not wish it to be legal but then I don't want the other crap to be legal either. To say it is not figure skating while throwing a gal up in the air for a horizontal triple twist is figure skating is like Wha???

Joe
 
First of all I do not wish it to be legal but then I don't want the other crap to be legal either. To say it is not figure skating while throwing a gal up in the air for a horizontal triple twist is figure skating is like Wha???

Joe


Exactly! If other things that aren't strictly FS are legal (twists, Biellmans, other contorsionist spins...) why not the backflip?
 
Yah,:yes: I don't see why it couldn't be in Pairs as is. And I could see pairs undergoing changes. I was however under the impression that the Man in Pairs IS "figure skating" while he and partner perform other skills. :unsure:
Anyway I don't think pairs needs to change all that much if any. If they want to add or take away any elements is all relative to me. Add the back flip if they want to in pairs I think it is "cool."

I don't see why a BFlip should disqualify either. Do it if you want but it wont gain you any points - 'cauz how are they going to score it???

But it is not a SPIN position or anything like the Beilmann or Doughnut. Spinning in a "spot" with #s revolutions for each position has been a part of FS for "some time" now.

Pairs also has those elements etc... so where would it fit in.
 
Well, they may change the rules in the future, and maybe that would be a good thing.

But I think Sean's earlier post is correct, the the ISU tries to be consistent in requiring some actual skating even in pairs moves such as lifts and throws.

If you look at the rules for pairs skating, it is full of rules such as this: Hand-to-hand loop lift: "Partners skate one behind the other on a backward outside edge, hand-to-hand hold. Lady is lifted from backward outside edge."

On the GOE guidelines for lifts, the man must turn "one to three-and-a-half revolutions" on the ice during the lift, with a -1 to -3 GOE for "poor turns by the man." For a twist, it's a GOE deduction if the lady comes down on two feet or if the man is skating on two feet during the dismount. On a throw jump there is a -2 GOE for a two-footed start or a two-footed landing by the lady. Etc., etc., etc.

So maybe they could allow a side-by-side backflip from a back outside edge.

No wait! A throw backflip. Starting position, skating back to back, man going forward on front outside edge, lady backward on back outside edge, arms locked, then he pitches her over his head. Extra GOE for one-and-a-half somersault. :rock:

Anyway, the ISU might be wrong, but at least they are consistent.
 
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IIFC Scott Hamilton did not have a backflip until after his eligible career was over. As a pro, somebody told him he could add a million dollars to his marketability if he could do it, so he went to work and added the move to his repertoire.

he had the idea well before he went pro, it just wasn't a smart idea to train it while training for the olympics, as Kurt Browning proved years later it can seriously injure you and ruin your chances at medals... medals were life and death for a pro skater' rep back then probably even more so than now... lol
 
And as MM just pointed out, there is only one person that lands on one foot.

I think Sabovcik's done it on one foot a few times also, but it was too hard on his knees.

The reason I'd always heard is because it isn't landed on one foot...and then, of course, Bonaly proved that wrong.
 
I don't think it is just the one foot issue, yet some of why the personification of it not being a figure skating move. The entrance is more what I see as being the obvious, let alone the landing. Does anyone else have the one foot landing into a 2 or 3sc? or anything close?

And now the question of where to place it in the scoring comes up yet again. What type of FS move is it??? A 3sc? then score it a 3sc.

How is it scored? Under what???? GOE or otherwise?

I don't see - from my own inquiry - how this is a FS element.
 
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That's much too simplistics for me to say it isn't figure skating when a triiple twist is considered figure skating. I want to see where it is officially written.

It's not that I want it to be legal. I don't! but I don't want contortionist spins and throw jumps either.

(btw, it took a while before more than one skater could do a triple so landing on one foot just takes more practice.)

Joe


I can't remember where (i never really knew where in the rules anything was) but i think the reason is that its a dangerous move. Double and triple jumps are hard enough to learn and hurt when you fall but a mistake in a backflip on the ice can result in a broken neck. The danger factor of having six elite skaters on a warm up warming up their backflips also makes the mind boggle.

I think under 6.0 there was a statement in the rules that since skating is all about horizonatal rotation (inherent in the edge of the skates) spinning both on the the ice and horizontally are in keeping with the skill but rotating vertically is not. I believe under 6.0 there was some statement about itbeing more gynmastic/acrobatic than skating related...a logic which , given the spins and and lifts that are rewarded under COP, is somewhat flawed.

But then is that explanation any more flawed than the explanation for annonymous judging? The rule makers don't use logic!!

Ant

Ant
 
Ant - Maybe there was such a statement. I'd like to see it and compare it with other nuveau moves of today. As I said I am not for back flips. I just question the many other dangerous moves in figure skating.

Most jumps are verticle (or try to be) and the rotations are in line with the verticle position. The back flip, is also verticle but the rotation is in line with the direction of the skating. One can't do it on a curve.

Imo, Figure Skating is not a true art form. It borrows from other art forms already in existence - ballet, dance, acrobatics, etc. The one thing skating has that dance does not have is the flow over the ice. That, imo, is what makes figure skating beautiful is the flow over the ice.

Joe
 
Ant - Maybe there was such a statement. I'd like to see it and compare it with other nuveau moves of today. As I said I am not for back flips. I just question the many other dangerous moves in figure skating.

I'm not sure if there are any more electronic versions of the 6.0 rules still kicking around on a website somewhere, either way i never really used to look at them very much so i can't be of any use. I seem to think that a rule was changed in pairs at some point to allow summersaulting exits from lifts which appear to now be the norm. I guess though taht these are less dangerous as they are usually helped by the partner?? Like i said, if you're looking for logic then the ISU is probably not the best place to look!

Most jumps are verticle (or try to be) and the rotations are in line with the verticle position. The back flip, is also verticle but the rotation is in line with the direction of the skating. One can't do it on a curve.

I guess i always think of it the other way round - the direction of rotation so in a jump or spin depending which way round you jump, you jump to the left or the right and rotate horizontally around a vertical axis. In a summersault you jump up and rotate vertically around a horizontal axis...

Ant
 
doesn't the ISU have its rulebook online somewhere, you could always research it there, Joe.
 
I could Toni, but I am lazy and if I don't find it and feel like smirking that it never existed, who could care less? I think I'm the only one that wants to ban certain moves.

Joe
 
I could Toni, but I am lazy and if I don't find it and feel like smirking that it never existed, who could care less? I think I'm the only one that wants to ban certain moves.

Joe

Maybe the ones you want to ban in particular, but there have been moves banned. So you are not the only one who thinks that there should be "moves banned." The sentiment at least is a shared one or there wouldn't have been any banned. So I think you are bringing up some interesting points for consideration, and just caz some disagree with you doesn't at all mean you are wrong. I could be way wrong - it is not uncommon:laugh:
 
Hey, Toni, have you ever tried to research anything on the ISU site? :laugh:

Every once in a while I get a stubborn streak that makes me bound and determined to find something, just so Mr. Cinquanta doesn't have the last laugh on me. So far I'm batting about .087.

In this case, though, the explanations of why certain elements are or or not allowed are not in the rules themselves, but presumably stored away in archived minutes of committee deliberations.

I did find this, though: Who was the leader (ladies' division) on the very first listing of all-time highest CoP scores?

...Jennifer Don. :yes:
 
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