Backspin - outside edge and blade position

[christy]

When I got my skates the fitter said I had pronation so positioned the blade to the very inside of the sole (to the point where they actually protrude past the edge of the sole), and said that would fix the problem. I've always had problems getting onto the outside edge in the backspin so my coach suggested moving the blades towards the inside of the sole but I explained that this had already been done.
So, I'm interested to know if positioning the blade at the inside edge does actually help pronation, and what can be done to help get onto the outside edge in a backspin.

 

[tstop4me]

* First let's take a step back. Are you having a problem getting onto the outside edge only on a backspin? Do you pronate only on one foot? What about more general moves, such as consecutive forward outside edges, consecutive backward outside edges, forward X-overs (both directions), backward X-overs (both directions) ...?

* Moving the blade to the inside will compensate for pronation ... up to a point. I do know one tech in my area who does extreme offsets such as yours (mounting plate jutting past the boot). I have strong pronation myself, and I personally don't care for extreme offsets. It throws your center of gravity off too much, and you need to fight instability: not good for spins in particular. Also, I wouldn't care to dig the protruding edge of the mounting plate into the ice during a fall.

* I think I have a previous detailed post on compensating for pronation. I'll search for it. But, briefly:

(1) You first move the blade to the inside slightly (TBD).

(2) If more correction is needed, add an orthotic to the boot.

(3) If further correction is needed, move the blade to the inside slightly more (TBD).

(4) If even further correction is needed, add shims to the outside of the blade. This may entail moving the blade slightly back out again. The tech I referred to above doesn't care for shims, so he resorts to extreme offsets. But I personally have tried both, and prefer shims to extreme offsets. Caveat: Shimming needs to be done properly; otherwise you can deform the blade.

(5) Note: In some instances, the degree of pronation of the forefoot and heel differ, and you might need to tweak the alignment of the blade as well.

ETA: I've reviewed what I wrote on previous posts on this forum. I didn't find what I was looking for; probably posted on a different forum. But here's what I have to add to the above:

(A) Here is an informative article written by a sports podiatrist: http://www.aapsm.org/pdf/humble-skatinga.pdf

(B) Moving the blade by 1/16" (offset between center longitudinal axis of blade and center longitudinal axis of boot) is fine ("slightly"). I personally would not move the blade more than 1/8" total offset ("slightly more"); then, use shims rather than more extreme offsets.

 

[christy]

Thanks for the info. I have problems getting all forward outside edges, but I'm ok with backward outside edges and X-overs in all directions. I've never been diagnosed with pronation, and the skate tech has never actually said I pronate. Just that they put the blades to the inside for a lot of adult skaters.

I was fitted for ski boots recently and asked the fitter, who said I had high arches but they didn't think I pronated much at all. Of course the fitter isn't a podiatrist so that's really just someone's opinion. In the absence of any podiatrist, never mind a good one or one with skating experience, I've been researching and I've tried the various tests that fitness sites suggest and based on those I definitely don't pronate massively.

If I don't pronate, then I would have thought that having the blade to the extreme inside would affect my inside edges more than my outside edges, but I'm not sure? Is that correct? I keep trying to think it through, and it's confusing.

Also I'm guessing that as my blades have been in that position for a few years it's going to be difficult to adapt to having them more central?

 

[tstop4me]

* If you’re skating and skiing, perhaps you should consider seeing a podiatrist for peace of mind. Any competent podiatrist can check for general foot issues, such as pronation/supination. But, if you should need orthotics for your skates, you would need a podiatrist with specific experience fitting orthotics for skates, since orthotics for skates differ from those for walking shoes or running shoes.

* Unless the skate tech is aware that the skater supinates, it is common practice to mount the blades slightly to the inside (regardless of the age of the skater). But it is totally wacko to routinely mount the blades extremely to the inside, such that the mounting plate protrudes past the boot. You should find another tech.

* For skating, an initial series of tests to check for supination/pronation consists of one-foot glides in a nominally straight line. [Caveat: First check to make sure that your blades have been sharpened properly with level edges.]

- Stroke forward to pick up some speed. Glide comfortably on two feet in a nominally straight line. Then lift up one foot (let’s choose the right in this instance) and continue to glide on the other (the left in this instance). Don't force the glide to control it; just let it flow at ease. It’s best to have another person observe you from the back. Ideally, you should glide in a straight line. If possible, do the test on a clean patch of ice. Look at the tracing. Ideally you should see two lines of equal weight, such as | |. If you supinate, you will be biased towards the outside edge; you will veer to the left, and the tracing will look like this: | | (outside edge will be heavier). If you pronate, you will be biased towards the inside edge; you will veer to the right; and the tracing will look like this: | | (inside edge with be heavier). [In extremely screwed-up scenarios, you will see only a single heavy line.]

- Repeat with the other foot: lift up the left, glide on the right.

- Then repeat with one-foot glides backwards.

* Once you’ve made adjustments (see previous post), if needed, such that the one-foot glides are OK, then follow-up with consecutive forward outside edges, consecutive forward inside edges, consecutive backward outside edges, consecutive backward inside edges, forward X-overs (both directions), and backward X-overs (both directions) to determine whether any fine tuning is needed,

*

I have problems getting all forward outside edges, but I'm ok with backward outside edges and X-overs in all directions.

Also I'm guessing that as my blades have been in that position for a few years it's going to be difficult to adapt to having them more central?

Your results are inconsistent. For some maneuvers, you might be fighting to compensate. If you've been doing this for years, you will have a re-learning curve.

 

[christy]

Thank you for that information. I am definitely looking for a different skate tech, but one question about trying the tests with my current blade position as I'm wondering if the extreme position will skew they results?

 

[tstop4me]

Thank you for that information. I am definitely looking for a different skate tech, but one question about trying the tests with my current blade position as I'm wondering if the extreme position will skew they results?

Start with the one-foot glides with your blades mounted as they are. As I mentioned above, be careful not to fight to control the glide. Relax, and let the blade take you where it wants. E.g., if you are gliding forward on your left foot, and if you do not have strong pronation, then with the blade set to the extreme inside, you should be biased towards the outside edge and veer to the left. And your tracings will be heavier on the outside edge.

 

[christy]

OK, I tried today, but it was a public session so the ice was really torn up so I couldn't find a clear patch to check the tracing, however I tried the stroking then 2 feet then lifting one, and on the right foot I veered massively to the right, and on the left I veered a small amount to the left.
I tried a few times in case it was a one off, but every time I was curving to the right a lot, and the left only a tiny bit.

 

[tstop4me]

That's useful info. Did you test both backwards and forwards one-foot glides? And something else I should have asked you earlier: do you spin CW or CCW?

 

[christy]

I tried both but didn't manage to do the backwards properly because of other skaters so they weren't definitive. I was looking around for people so was veering in the direction I was looking.

I spin CCW.

I have definitely learnt to compensate for the positioning of the blades. I often feel like I am fighting them for at least the first 10-15 minutes of a session, especially when I'm trying to do edges.

 

[tstop4me]

OK. Before making any changes, also check the backwards one-foot glides. As I mentioned above, if possible, have someone else look at you while you're doing the backward (and forward) glides. With the full set of info, then have the blades remounted, initially with a temp mount. But ask around for a better tech. Good Luck!

 

[christy]

Quick update. Busy public ice again but managed to do the forward and backward glides. Didn't have anyone watching me so it's just what I could check.
Right foot - forward glides veering to the right / outside edge, backward glides veering slightly to the right, looking at the ice the tracing is heavier on the right / outside edge
Left foot - forward glides slightly veering to the left / outside edge, backward glides veering slightly to the left, this tracing was a bit rough and not easy to see (I tried several times with same result), but I think it was heavier on the left / outside edge

 

[bruingrl]

I had a similar problem, but for years. I skated for about 15 years, starting when I was 12, and never once felt comfortable doing a back spin. I always had to force it and never got more than a few rotations. I thought it was just me.

Fast forward 20 years and I'm back on the ice for the first time in over a decade, just got new skates, which I had properly fitted, and then had the blade alignment adjusted, and suddenly a back spin felt as natural as if I'd always done it.

FYI, the skate tech could tell I pronated based on looking at my old skates and how I walked. He mounted the blades for a pronator and also did Superfeet inserts (my chiropractor told me years ago I need them in all my shoes, so I asked about it).

When I got the skates I tried a trick someone mentioned in the forum, where you follow a hockey line on a one foot glide and close your eyes for a few seconds. When I opened them I found I veered off to the outside edge on both feet, though more on one than the other. I took that info to the skate tech and they adjusted my blades accordingly. I thought I'd have to go through more blade adjustments, but so far it's been amazing.

 

[Chevalier]

Moving the blade to the inside will compensate for pronation ... up to a point. I do know one tech in my area who does extreme offsets such as yours (mounting plate jutting past the boot). I have strong pronation myself, and I personally don't care for extreme offsets. It throws your center of gravity off too much, and you need to fight instability: not good for spins in particular. Also, I wouldn't care to dig the protruding edge of the mounting plate into the ice during a fall.

* I think I have a previous detailed post on compensating for pronation. I'll search for it. But, briefly:

(1) You first move the blade to the inside slightly (TBD).

(2) If more correction is needed, add an orthotic to the boot.

(3) If further correction is needed, move the blade to the inside slightly more (TBD).

Thank so so much for the info ! Mind if I ask for your expert advice?

Finally made up my mind for intermediate skates (risport + MK pro, since I foresee my old self spinning without jumping in maybe 20 years’ time)
Yet pronation has been a huge problem so have been looking into remedial (seen by podiatrists and orthopaedic doctors regarding flat foot/ pronation)
I can’t get on my left outside edge if at all, can only force to stay in there for a second forward/ backward
Right side is better but it’s only lasting for like 5 seconds and I’ll fall onto inside edge again

Since I’ll be ordering online (virtual fitting done, confirmed 0 fitter / skate tech in my city), would you suggest me asking them to mount my blades slightly off？
He recommended me to get Jackson insoles 7degrees to compensate for pronation if that info helps
The podiatrists or occupational therapists here don’t have experience with skates

 

[tstop4me]

Thank so so much for the info ! Mind if I ask for your expert advice?

Finally made up my mind for intermediate skates (risport + MK pro, since I foresee my old self spinning without jumping in maybe 20 years’ time)
Yet pronation has been a huge problem so have been looking into remedial (seen by podiatrists and orthopaedic doctors regarding flat foot/ pronation)
I can’t get on my left outside edge if at all, can only force to stay in there for a second forward/ backward
Right side is better but it’s only lasting for like 5 seconds and I’ll fall onto inside edge again

Since I’ll be ordering online (virtual fitting done, confirmed 0 fitter / skate tech in my city), would you suggest me asking them to mount my blades slightly off？
He recommended me to get Jackson insoles 7degrees to compensate for pronation if that info helps
The podiatrists or occupational therapists here don’t have experience with skates

Before I answer your question, I need to clarify what your mounting plans are, and what local resources (if any) you have. Generally, when blades are first mounted, they are installed with a temporary (temp) mount. If you look at the mounting plates on the blade, there are two holes in the sole plate and two holes in the heel plate that are elongated slots. All the other holes are circular. In a temp mount, screws are installed only in the four elongated slots. If you loosen the screws, you can move the blades slightly. Sometimes this movement is enough to position the blade properly for your foot. If not, then you need to plug just four holes and re-drill four new holes. After you've established a satisfactory temp mount, you install additional screws in circular holes to create a so-called permanent mount (an unfortunate misnomer since the mount really isn't permanent and can be changed).

* Is the online dealer going to do a temp mount only? If so, do you have some local guy who can handle the permanent mount? Or is the online dealer going to do a permanent mount?

* If you don't have a local guy to do the work, how handy are you with tools? In particular, screwdriver and electric drill.

 

[Chevalier]

Before I answer your question, I need to clarify what your mounting plans are, and what local resources (if any) you have. Generally, when blades are first mounted, they are installed with a temporary (temp) mount. If you look at the mounting plates on the blade, there are two holes in the sole plate and two holes in the heel plate that are elongated slots. All the other holes are circular. In a temp mount, screws are installed only in the four elongated slots. If you loosen the screws, you can move the blades slightly. Sometimes this movement is enough to position the blade properly for your foot. If not, then you need to plug just four holes and re-drill four new holes. After you've established a satisfactory temp mount, you install additional screws in circular holes to create a so-called permanent mount (an unfortunate misnomer since the mount really isn't permanent and can be changed).

* Is the online dealer going to do a temp mount only? If so, do you have some local guy who can handle the permanent mount? Or is the online dealer going to do a permanent mount?

* If you don't have a local guy to do the work, how handy are you with tools? In particular, screwdriver and electric drill.

The online dealer can either temporarily mount or permanently mount depending on my choice

For local resources… I would say close to 0
There are coaches doing sharpening as side jobs (no pro skate tech)
As for mounting the stores sell pre-mounted boots (like my Jackson artiste) or they somehow have them mounted elsewhere before shipping to my city
I know 1 store which does mounting for skates they sell but they don’t offer this to skates bought elsewhere (plus this self claimed ‘pro fitter’ routinely sells high end skates in extra width 2-3 sizes too large, I don’t really trust him. Many skaters at my rink got wrong skates after spending a lot)

Regarding my carpenter skills, screws are completely fine (thanks to ikea)
Drilling I would say there are better hands… watched YouTube videos regarding DIY blade mounting, doesn’t seem easy

 

[tstop4me]

The online dealer can either temporarily mount or permanently mount depending on my choice

For local resources… I would say close to 0
There are coaches doing sharpening as side jobs (no pro skate tech)
As for mounting the stores sell pre-mounted boots (like my Jackson artiste) or they somehow have them mounted elsewhere before shipping to my city
I know 1 store which does mounting for skates they sell but they don’t offer this to skates bought elsewhere (plus this self claimed ‘pro fitter’ routinely sells high end skates in extra width 2-3 sizes too large, I don’t really trust him. Many skaters at my rink got wrong skates after spending a lot)

Regarding my carpenter skills, screws are completely fine (thanks to ikea)
Drilling I would say there are better hands… watched YouTube videos regarding DIY blade mounting, doesn’t seem easy

* Thanks for the clarification. You're in a highly constrained situation, unfortunately.

* First take a step back, and consider the economics of various scenarios. You didn't mention how expensive your boots and blades will be. But once the boots have been altered (and this includes having holes drilled into them), they generally are not returnable. On the other hand, shipping (in particular, international shipping) is waaay expensive these days. So do some preliminary estimates for the following scenarios:

- You order the boots with the blades pre-mounted. The boots fit. Best scenario.

- You order the boots with the blades pre-mounted. The boots don't fit. You're stuck with the boots for sure, and maybe with the blades as well (check with the seller for their policy). Worst scenario.

- You order the boots alone. The boots don't fit. You return the boots. You'll need to pay return shipping, and the seller may charge you a restocking fee as well. Check with the seller what their return policy is (particularly if they are doing a virtual fitting).

- You order the boots alone. The boots fit. You send the boots back to have the blades mounted. You'll need to pay shipping to return them to the seller, and likely the seller will charge you shipping to send you the boots and mounted blades (again, check with the seller for their policy).

<<I'll follow up in another post with my recommendations for mounting, given your constraints.>>

 

[Chevalier]

* Thanks for the clarification. You're in a highly constrained situation, unfortunately.

* First take a step back, and consider the economics of various scenarios. You didn't mention how expensive your boots and blades will be. But once the boots have been altered (and this includes having holes drilled into them), they generally are not returnable. On the other hand, shipping (in particular, international shipping) is waaay expensive these days. So do some preliminary estimates for the following scenarios:

- You order the boots with the blades pre-mounted. The boots fit. Best scenario.

- You order the boots with the blades pre-mounted. The boots don't fit. You're stuck with the boots for sure, and maybe with the blades as well (check with the seller for their policy). Worst scenario.

- You order the boots alone. The boots don't fit. You return the boots. You'll need to pay return shipping, and the seller may charge you a restocking fee as well. Check with the seller what their return policy is (particularly if they are doing a virtual fitting).

- You order the boots alone. The boots fit. You send the boots back to have the blades mounted. You'll need to pay shipping to return them to the seller, and likely the seller will charge you shipping to send you the boots and mounted blades (again, check with the seller for their policy).

<<I'll follow up in another post with my recommendations for mounting, given your constraints.>>

I’ll actually be ordering here:

SkatersEdge

Risport royal pro + mk pro + shipping should be around $550 I guess, then plus insoles
The shipping is around $50USD each time (to them or to myself)
Plus I need some toe box adjustments for my bunion - unlikely they allow return of boots or exchange

They scenarios you’ve posted makes life gloomy ……

Local skate shops sell Edea, risport is a rarity in this area

 

[tstop4me]

unlikely they allow return of boots or exchange

As I mentioned before, once boots are altered in any way (drilling, heat molding, punching out, ...), they generally are not returnable. Blades generally are not returnable if you have them sharpened. One grey area is whether you can return unsharpened blades if they have been mounted (cosmetic damage around the screw holes).

<<I'll follow up later with mounting recommendations.>>

 

[Chevalier]

As I mentioned before, once boots are altered in any way (drilling, heat molding, punching out, ...), they generally are not returnable. Blades generally are not returnable if you have them sharpened. One grey area is whether you can return unsharpened blades if they have been mounted (cosmetic damage around the screw holes).

<<I'll follow up later with mounting recommendations.>>

Tbh never expected chance of return / exchange to start with
The problem is local skate stores are so bad and isn’t any better than online
- no fitting
- only a few models and sizes for trial, if you order anything there’s no exchange or refund
- basically only edea for intermediate and above

Given my friends’ happy experience with this virtual fitting store and nice reviews I’ll give it a try

Thanks for the help all along

 

[tstop4me]

Tbh never expected chance of return / exchange to start with
The problem is local skate stores are so bad and isn’t any better than online
- no fitting
- only a few models and sizes for trial, if you order anything there’s no exchange or refund
- basically only edea for intermediate and above

Given my friends’ happy experience with this virtual fitting store and nice reviews I’ll give it a try

Thanks for the help all along

* OK. The following advice is not what I would consider good advice, but the least bad advice in your stated scenario . That is, you are dependent on the remote seller for the mounting, because you don't have access to any local tech who can do the work competently and you are not experienced and equipped to do it yourself. And you are fully aware that you won't have the option of return or exchange.

* I would have the seller do a permanent mount, and request that the seller install all the screws (a permanent mount doesn't necessarily require installation of all screws, and techs often don't for the first mount).

* Ask the seller to mount the blades toward the inside: the center longitudinal axis of the blade should be shifted 1/8" inside from the center longitudinal axis of the sole/heel of the boot. This way you can make some corrections without re-mounting the blades:

- If the correction is too strong (my guess unlikely in your case), you can swap out the Jackson Supreme insoles that you're planning to get with either the original Risport insoles (make sure the seller ships the plain insoles that Risport includes with their boots) or an insole with a weaker correction (whether another Jackson Supreme or some other brand).

- If the correction is not strong enough, you can try a different insole with a stronger correction (the model of Jackson Supreme insole that you're ordering already has the strongest correction in that line). But if you're a strong pronator like me, you'll likely need shims, and the full complement of screws will allow you to add shims safely and readily. [You can write back if you come to that. Thin shims are relatively easy to do (easier than IKEA kits ); thick shims are more difficult.]

- But if the correction is just right (blessings of the New Year/New Lunar Year), you're all set. Let's hope that's the case, Murphy's Law not withstanding.