Ballet and figure skating

[tparker30]

I have a question - I am a dance teacher and some of my students also are figure skaters...they have informed me that they are not allowed to do 5th position in ballet because of figure skating. Does anyone know what this about or why their coach would say this? I have never in my 14 years of teaching encountered anything like this and am baffled. In my studio we do a "natural" 5th posotion not a forced on so, I can't really see what the problem is


Thanks for all you help!!!!!!

 

[NJSk8Fan]

I have no idea the answer to your quandry. I used to do ballet, not the serious prima-donna-ballerina stuff, just the local dance school for fun and the yearly recital. I am tryiing to remember the 5 positions and can't for the life of me remember them in proper sequence....so I can't even try a 5th position to harbor a guess.

 

[Mathman]

Thanks for raising this interesting question, and welcome to the forum.

I hope someone will be able to give a serious answer. We have had many threads about ballet and figure skating, and I have to admit that I usually come away from them no wiser than before. I greatly look forward to reading what our dance enthusiasts will have to say.

 

[dwiggin3]

this is 5th position for those who don't know: http://library.thinkquest.org/J002266F/5th_position.htm

I'm not familiar with "open" 5th...but then again, i don't dance.

I'm not sure why skaters don't/woudn't do it other than perhaps it puts pressure on the legs and ankle joints that might be a contradictory to correct leg/ankle/foot position in skating....

 

[redhotcoach]

Fifth position is very similar to an Ina Bauer position in figure skating. The front foot is place on the ice traveling in the direction of travel - generally on an outside edge altho some prefer an inside edge.....and the back foot is placed on the inside edge about 2-3 feet behind and parallel to the front foot -- facing heel first down the ice.

Sound similar?

Turnout is a big problem for many skaters and lots just can't do a proper Ina Bauer because they don't have natural turn-out and don't want to take the time to stretch their body into the proper position. Took me a whole summer of practice (and falling) until I got an awesome Ina which I used going into the salchow!

In fact, under the new judging system - it is preferable to teach skaters to take off their axel with an Ina Bauer because it is considered a difficult variation.

Gotta go for those bonus points!

 

[Tinymavy15]

i am surprised at this. I have done ballet for years to complement my skating and have a very good, turned out fifth. I can not to fifth position very well on ice.... but in the dance studio?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I'm not so sure that 5th position would affect general skating escpecially since skaters would not take dance class more than once a week. Skaters are not training to be Dancers.

However, working on a good 5th position would help anyone get their knees turned out . Doing some Tandu's (sp) would help to get their toes pointed. Doing some Port au Bras would help to get them arm movments. None of this will make skaters ballerinas.

I don't know what is an open 5th position. It might mean 3rd position which is used in tap dancing and many folk dancing.

I would say an ina bauer would be 4th position. 2nd position if like a spread eagle

Joe

 

[Ladskater]

Now there is a good question for Emanuel Sandhu to answer. One can see Emanuel's extensive ballet training when he skates. It is wonderful to watch. His extensions are beautiful and graceful and he always points his toe. I am sure Emanuel has practiced the 5th position many times while at the ballet bar. I can't for the life of me think of a reply to your question. I took a little ballet when I figure skated and I learned all of the ballet positions - including the 5th. Maybe your students are not ready for this level yet and hey it's a good excuse!!!! I am sure no figure skating instructor out there would object to their pupils learning the 5th position in ballet.

The great Karen Magnussen also took ballet when she figure skated and it really showed when she skated - especially when she did her beautiful trade mark spiral and Ina Bauer moves.

Many figure skaters study ballet to improve their skating skills.

 

[silver.blades]

The only reason I can think of is that 5th position can be really hard on the knees if you lack turnout. I take ballet classes and if I don't think about it I stop turning out from the hips and turn out from the knees. 5th position forces turnout more than the other positions, even if that's just a mental preception.

 

[NJSk8Fan]

Thanks for the picture of 5th position...I knew it was similar to 3rd but couldn't remember it. I *do* remember 5th being one of the harder positions to achieve properly.

 

[passion]

Many figure skaters study ballet to improve their skating skills.

I'm sorry, but could you explain to me how ballet is related to skating skills? I don't see the connection. In my mind, the two are very different. Thanks.

 

[Tinymavy15]

I'm sorry, but could you explain to me how ballet is related to skating skills? I don't see the connection. In my mind, the two are very different. Thanks.

watch a skater like sasha cohen and the diffrence becomes not so broad. a spread eagle is just a second position in ballet. an ina bauer is a fourth. like skating, ballet is made up of turns (spins) and jumps. Usally the men are the only ones with the big jumps is ballet.....doubles and triples abound. Not too mention that any form of dance will help a skaters understanding of music and cheography. Knowing a ballet backround can help interpret the music that is so often used in figure skating-swan lake, the nutcraker, romeo and juliet all ballets!!!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Those ballet positions were also taken from folk traditions. The court of Lucrezia Borgia had the first ballet as entertainment for visiting diplomats. the French were so impressed that they arranged for the Italians to perform for the royalty in Paris and thus ballet was born with French names.

Sasha Cohen had excellent limberness (like others in gymnastics) which she brought to figure skating. She claims never to have studied ballet. Just did the usual acrobatic stretches that all gymnasts and dancers do.

I can see what Dance has given figure skating but I have not yet discovered what figure skating has given Dance. (All Dance forms borrow from each other but figure skating just takes.)

Joe

 

[julietvalcouer]

I am capable of a full, Ballanchine-style fifth (feet locked together, perfectly parallel--I will add I've always had full turnout, and it's a matter of how I'm built-in fact I can stand with my feet turned out so far they're pointing slightly backwards) and I've never had skating issues. It DOES put pressure on the knees, but then so does an incorrect first, or a grand plie done any of the positions.

Where ballet benefits skaters (and ballroom dancers, come to that) isn't so much the specific moves (though learning to lift your arms in port de bras correctly works the lats and teaching you how to hold your shoulders without hunching them) but the way it works the core muscles and balance. Ballet requires you to control just about everything from the core. You have to learn to be centered over the standing leg and to commit your weight.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Where ballet benefits skaters (and ballroom dancers, come to that) isn't so much the specific moves (though learning to lift your arms in port de bras correctly works the lats and teaching you how to hold your shoulders without hunching them) but the way it works the core muscles and balance. Ballet requires you to control just about everything from the core. You have to learn to be centered over the standing leg and to commit your weight.

Very good points. Can you imagine a ballerina using her hands to hold up a Y spiral? Ballet Dancers have muscle power.

Joe

 

[Lilbit]

Very good points. Can you imagine a ballerina using her hands to hold up a Y spiral? Ballet Dancers have muscle power.

I don't see how a ballerina can do a spiral at all. When you do a spiral you are gliding along on an edge. I don't think there is anything in dance that is like that.

 

[julietvalcouer]

Not gliding, but she does have to do a develope into something like Shizuka's Y-spiral position, and hold it. Without using her hands. (Is there a skater who can do that besides Shizuka?) Arabesques are the body position of the classic COE spiral--sometimes done with the standing leg en pointe, and often with the upper body held up much higher.

Ballet dancers in general are more flexible than skaters, and by necessity the female dancers have better alignment once they've gone en pointe. Probably that's the biggest benefit for anyone in any other sport/discipline that you get from ballet--allignment.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I don't see how a ballerina can do a spiral at all. When you do a spiral you are gliding along on an edge. I don't think there is anything in dance that is like that.

No way does that compare with being on full point!! edge/smedge.

Joe

 

[Lilbit]

Not gliding, but she does have to do a develope into something like Shizuka's Y-spiral position, and hold it. Without using her hands. (Is there a skater who can do that besides Shizuka?)

I don't think even Shizuka can do that, because she has to use her hands to get her leg up there in the first place. But then she can let go, which is pretty cool.

No way does that compare with being on full point!! edge/smedge.

I was just saying, there are things that skaters can do that dancers can't, like a death spiral And other things that dancers can do but skaters can't like stand ontheir toes. So it is two different things, so we should not blame skaters for not being dancers and we should not blame dancers for not being skaters. Thats what I think.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

And there are things Acrobats can do and make it look balletic. try this and note the leg raises are not done with the hand.

Click here: http://www.elegantbay.com/main/balet.htm

Joe