Biomechanics of figure skating

[fanboy]

I think there is a misconception about weight training automatically bulking; stabilization of joints by weight training is huge and part of the design of general athletic conditioning, which should easily contribute to better efficiency in transition between horizontal and vertical velocity. But like I said, I'm not a physicist - I'm a biologist.

Definitely so. You can increase your muscle strength with no additional weight gain. This relates to better neurological wiring of the muscles, in layman terms. However, I don't even see a problem in skaters bulking, if they gain more explosive strength. It's like if you gain additional 10% mass and 20% more force, it's worth it. (Or else there's some super weird sport specific reason why it's not worth it, like you losing body control or flexibility with sudden strength increase, however I doubt it.)

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Excuse me, I didn't mention any maths, and I'm not the engineer in this thread (it's the original poster). I took pains to state that I'm not a coach nor a high-level skater - whatever I said is how my own coach explains things when we're working on doubles - so it's not like there is a need to put me in my place.

I don't think we are on the same page about what the poster was asking. Yes, change (or not) in rotational axis is a characteristic that makes Loop/Flip/Lutz mechanically similar compared to Axel/Toe/Sal, but the poster is not a skater (not sure if they actually can tell between the six jumps) and was asking if "one leg pushes upwards and the other generates spins". I interpreted this as being a question whether each leg is solely responsible for either height or rotation, so decided to address it by explaining how it doesn't hold true neither for edge jumps (with the entry edge rotation) nor toe jumps (with the weight transfer from skating to picking leg). If you do axel/toe/sal then the swingthrough and mid-air shift to landing leg contributes significantly to rotation, so the question could have also been addressed that way.
Some skaters prefer no-axis-change jumps over axis-change jumps (me included), others prefer edge jumps over toe jumps. What characteristic you find the most salient is rather subjective. Some coaches teach kids loop before toeloop or vice versa; approaches also differ on how they communicate the concept of pre-rotation (or lack thereof).

@kolyadafan2002 sorry to bring you into this, but I noticed you have a knack for explaining skating technique in words We are going on a tangent that may be of little interest to the OP, but nevertheless would you be able to weigh in on whether I committed a cardinal sin in my explanation or not?

What you said wasn't wrong, albeit a simplification. But I would say the same about the person who replied to you - although, it seems like a strange reply in the sense that the mechanics of figure skating can fill multiple books, yet the responder took your small paragraph as you trying to describe the complete mechanics of the sport.

Anyways, from what I've gathered, your intention was to inform the OP that we use both legs to generate height and spin on jumps - which is true.

On every jump, often you first have the build the height before pulling in - using a combination of the free leg and the standing leg, which you mentioned. For many jumps (e.g salchow, loop) this involves hitting a h position, driving the knee up whilst also building height from standing leg. For some people with some jumps, this doesn't happen (e.g most 4T's, Kolyada's 4Lz). For some people, it happens on every jump. It can happen to a lesser extent or greater depending on how quickly you pull into rotation etc.

As for weight transfer.... ahhh... I think you could get a group of skaters to have a heated debate all day about this, and they would likely all have a point for their argument.

It's hard to simply jumps to a single technique, as almost everybody does something different. In this way, even though as a coach when explaining jumps I'd group Salchow, Toe, Axel as weight transfer and Loop,Flip,Lutz as not, many people do weight transfer to some extent in every jump. With quad Loop, Hanyu drives up his leg a huge amount then closes in on the axis. I would definitely say there is weight transfer there. For many people there is a weight transfer in F/Lz - albeit less obvious. They do move their body into a different position from the takeoff though. and those who pre-rotate in these jumps definitely have weight transfer. The body is used in every jump, whether to a lesser extent or higher extent.

I want to stress, using the body TO jump is not ideal (And by that I mean relying on body momentum/swinging it through) - what it should be used for, is to allow the freedom of movement in the correct way from legs and arms to generate the most height and rotation possible without compromising the stability, before tightening up and trying to minimise the moment of inertia. It should also be used to ensure a strong and stable axis, whether that involves keeping it straight on the axis or leaning forward can depend from technique or skaters build. Even that paragraph from me is a simplification though, so don't read too much into it.

On the topic of teaching toeloop - I pretty much have to teach it as the 3rd jump after waltz jump and salchow, purely as that's the Learn To Skate syllabus. If I could write my own syllabus, I'd actually teach it at least after loop and flip, as it tends to be the one where with beginners bad technique is prevalence (toe-waltz), and one of the jumps that are most conceptual. (usually most of them naturally trying to toe-waltz, and other coaches allowing them to do so). The only one I'd really teach after toeloop is Lutz - purely as having a really strong outside edge is a pre-requisite to good lutz.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Definitely so. You can increase your muscle strength with no additional weight gain. This relates to better neurological wiring of the muscles, in layman terms. However, I don't even see a problem in skaters bulking, if they gain more explosive strength. It's like if you gain additional 10% mass and 20% more force, it's worth it. (Or else there's some super weird sport specific reason why it's not worth it, like you losing body control or flexibility with sudden strength increase, however I doubt it.)

Just saw this reply (sorry for double post).

When I was a free skater, 80% of strength training was bodyweight or resistance training, using smaller weights when needed to implement into the exercise. As an ice dancer I need a different sort of strength for lifts, so include low reps of heavy weight training exercises, with the aim to increase muscle as much as possible without bulk (Useless muscle is unideal - strong, useful, functional muscle is what I aim for)

 

[fanboy]

I don't think we are on the same page about what the poster was asking. Yes, change (or not) in rotational axis is a characteristic that makes Loop/Flip/Lutz mechanically similar compared to Axel/Toe/Sal, but the poster is not a skater (not sure if they actually can tell between the six jumps) and was asking if "one leg pushes upwards and the other generates spins". I interpreted this as being a question whether each leg is solely responsible for either height or rotation, so decided to address it by explaining how it doesn't hold true neither for edge jumps (with the entry edge rotation) nor toe jumps (with the weight transfer from skating to picking leg). If you do axel/toe/sal then the swingthrough and mid-air shift to landing leg contributes significantly to rotation, so the question could have also been addressed that way.
Some skaters prefer no-axis-change jumps over axis-change jumps (me included), others prefer edge jumps over toe jumps. What characteristic you find the most salient is rather subjective. Some coaches teach kids loop before toeloop or vice versa; approaches also differ on how they communicate the concept of pre-rotation (or lack thereof).

I can tell Axel from the other jumps. To distinguish the other five, I'd need slow motion. Based on your explanation, it seems that there's a trade-off between the angular velocity and the upwards force. So, an equation for the number of spins is needed, and that would be
N = u*vmax / (g*pi)
where u is the angular velocity, vmax is the maximal vertical velocity and g is 9.81 m/s^2. The lifting force F is nested in vmax. If I was to do a thesis on this, I would specify F as a function of u (and perhaps other factors the skater can affect). This being said, fractional Ns don't make much sense. (And, if a science joke is allowed, figure skating is quantized.) As a skater, I imagine you would like to have N in a region where you safely accomplish whatever you are aiming at (double, triple) and then you could work on the technique.

@kolyadafan2002 sorry to bring you into this, but I noticed you have a knack for explaining skating technique in words We are going on a tangent that may be of little interest to the OP, but nevertheless would you be able to weigh in on whether I committed a cardinal sin in my explanation or not?

Go ahead, this is your forum!

 

[fanboy]

Just saw this reply (sorry for double post).

When I was a free skater, 80% of strength training was bodyweight or resistance training, using smaller weights when needed to implement into the exercise. As an ice dancer I need a different sort of strength for lifts, so include low reps of heavy weight training exercises, with the aim to increase muscle as much as possible without bulk (Useless muscle is unideal - strong, useful, functional muscle is what I aim for)

Have you ever talked to guys practicing, say, high jump or triple jump? Do they do the same kind of strength training?

 

[Snorlax]

@kolyadafan2002 sorry to bring you into this, but I noticed you have a knack for explaining skating technique in words We are going on a tangent that may be of little interest to the OP, but nevertheless would you be able to weigh in on whether I committed a cardinal sin in my explanation or not?

If you happen to continue that tangent anywhere else, please take me with you. I am very interested in this Also this thread is an intrigueing read. I'm actually baffled that there's not more literature out there around biomechanics and Figure Skating. I'd love to learn more.

Just saying, I never said that all weight training led to major bulking of muscles. We do use different forms of weight training, but in a way that it does NOT bulk our muscles.

Could you recommend a few exercises? I'm always keen to try new stuff and doublecheck the things I already do

 

[Imminielle]

Yes, we are athletes to the highest degree and English as your first language or not: Many of us who are ATHLETES of this sport are incredibly offended (I can see I am not the only one on this thread).

In some languages, "athlete" (or the equivalent word) can only be use for those practising athletics (id. running, jumbing, throwing), as opposed to "sport-person" in general. I think that's what the other poster was refering to.

 

[mskater93]

Excuse me, I didn't mention any maths, and I'm not the engineer in this thread (it's the original poster). I took pains to state that I'm not a coach nor a high-level skater - whatever I said is how my own coach explains things when we're working on doubles - so it's not like there is a need to put me in my place.

I don't think we are on the same page about what the poster was asking. Yes, change (or not) in rotational axis is a characteristic that makes Loop/Flip/Lutz mechanically similar compared to Axel/Toe/Sal, but the poster is not a skater (not sure if they actually can tell between the six jumps) and was asking if "one leg pushes upwards and the other generates spins". I interpreted this as being a question whether each leg is solely responsible for either height or rotation, so decided to address it by explaining how it doesn't hold true neither for edge jumps (with the entry edge rotation) nor toe jumps (with the weight transfer from skating to picking leg). If you do axel/toe/sal then the swingthrough and mid-air shift to landing leg contributes significantly to rotation, so the question could have also been addressed that way.
Some skaters prefer no-axis-change jumps over axis-change jumps (me included), others prefer edge jumps over toe jumps. What characteristic you find the most salient is rather subjective. Some coaches teach kids loop before toeloop or vice versa; approaches also differ on how they communicate the concept of pre-rotation (or lack thereof).

@kolyadafan2002 sorry to bring you into this, but I noticed you have a knack for explaining skating technique in words We are going on a tangent that may be of little interest to the OP, but nevertheless would you be able to weigh in on whether I committed a cardinal sin in my explanation or not?

Then I am replying to the wrong person in this thread. The OP is missing a lot of understanding

 

[mskater93]

Are you certain? Endurance athletes don't typically tend to be bulky.

Yes, I have done a lot of reading in my spare time on muscle fiber types. Type 1 fibers tend to "bulk" muscles and are built for endurance versus type 2

 

[Flying Feijoa]

What you said wasn't wrong, albeit a simplification. But I would say the same about the person who replied to you - although, it seems like a strange reply in the sense that the mechanics of figure skating can fill multiple books, yet the responder took your small paragraph as you trying to describe the complete mechanics of the sport.

Anyways, from what I've gathered, your intention was to inform the OP that we use both legs to generate height and spin on jumps - which is true.

On every jump, often you first have the build the height before pulling in - using a combination of the free leg and the standing leg, which you mentioned. For many jumps (e.g salchow, loop) this involves hitting a h position, driving the knee up whilst also building height from standing leg. For some people with some jumps, this doesn't happen (e.g most 4T's, Kolyada's 4Lz). For some people, it happens on every jump. It can happen to a lesser extent or greater depending on how quickly you pull into rotation etc.

As for weight transfer.... ahhh... I think you could get a group of skaters to have a heated debate all day about this, and they would likely all have a point for their argument.

It's hard to simply jumps to a single technique, as almost everybody does something different. In this way, even though as a coach when explaining jumps I'd group Salchow, Toe, Axel as weight transfer and Loop,Flip,Lutz as not, many people do weight transfer to some extent in every jump. With quad Loop, Hanyu drives up his leg a huge amount then closes in on the axis. I would definitely say there is weight transfer there. For many people there is a weight transfer in F/Lz - albeit less obvious. They do move their body into a different position from the takeoff though. and those who pre-rotate in these jumps definitely have weight transfer. The body is used in every jump, whether to a lesser extent or higher extent.

I want to stress, using the body TO jump is not ideal (And by that I mean relying on body momentum/swinging it through) - what it should be used for, is to allow the freedom of movement in the correct way from legs and arms to generate the most height and rotation possible without compromising the stability, before tightening up and trying to minimise the moment of inertia. It should also be used to ensure a strong and stable axis, whether that involves keeping it straight on the axis or leaning forward can depend from technique or skaters build. Even that paragraph from me is a simplification though, so don't read too much into it.

On the topic of teaching toeloop - I pretty much have to teach it as the 3rd jump after waltz jump and salchow, purely as that's the Learn To Skate syllabus. If I could write my own syllabus, I'd actually teach it at least after loop and flip, as it tends to be the one where with beginners bad technique is prevalence (toe-waltz), and one of the jumps that are most conceptual. (usually most of them naturally trying to toe-waltz, and other coaches allowing them to do so). The only one I'd really teach after toeloop is Lutz - purely as having a really strong outside edge is a pre-requisite to good lutz.

Thank you so much for all this!
Jump technique is a topic with so many potential rabbit holes to go down, any simplification risks becoming an oversimplification... I really appreciate good coaches for their ability to strike a balance between conveying key ideas that a skater needs to focus on, versus giving an accurate description of what is physically happening. When I started in LTS it was 'take off backward!' (beginner doing spinny double-3s instead of salchows), a few years later it wass 'jump forward/ride the edge!' (trying to get more height for another rotation without messing up axis). Both cues made sense at their respective stage of development.

I'm with you on the teaching order. It's so much trouble to retool faulty technique than teach properly in the first place. I don't toe-waltz but have persistent axis/height issues, so even 2F is looking more attainable than 2T

BTW I didn't know you've now switched disciplines full-time! That's wonderful, welcome to the dance side!

Are you certain? Endurance athletes don't typically tend to be bulky.

Here is a summary of Type I, IIa and IIb muscle fibre characteristics:

Fast-Twitch Vs. Slow-Twitch Muscle Fiber Types + Training Tips | NASM Blog

NASM experts discuss the importance of fast twitch muscle fibers and explore the best exercise and training tips to strengthen them. Learn more on the NASM Blog.

blog.nasm.org

Yes, agree with you that Type I (slow-twitch) is both lower-bulk and used in endurance sport (hence the typical marathon runner's lanky build). Living in a rugby-obsessed nation we had a lot of sports science content in our PE classes as schoolkids...
Although Type II is bulkier, since it produces more power per unit mass, you don't need that much of it. High jumpers aren't particularly heavily built for example. Also see the blog's point that the ratio of Type I/II fibres that varies between athletes depending on the nature of their activities - in skating, besides jumps there are a lot of actions that require endurance-type muscles (postural control in stroking and footwork, holding positions in spins). We only have 2 legs so they need to multitask.
Another reason why the leg press alone is not ideal as a strengthening exercise for skating is because it doesn't effectively mimic functional movement. In comparison, squats (especially the 1-leg kind) recruit more core muscles and train balance, which makes them more sports-specific. To increase muscle firing speed, you'd add a plyometric component such as jumping lunges. At least, this is based on what physiotherapists told me during previous injury rehab.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Have you ever talked to guys practicing, say, high jump or triple jump? Do they do the same kind of strength training?

I am a former ladies competitive elite skater. I was doing triple triples so much I swore I was doing them in my sleep as well LOL. And yes, we train off ice pretty much the same. Possibly a little more high intensity.
And to spin your brain around a little more, at one point I was elite ice dancing and skating freestyle as well, both competitive. Pretty much same off ice, other than the jump stuff for dance and then soooooooo many other things.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

In some languages, "athlete" (or the equivalent word) can only be use for those practising athletics (id. running, jumbing, throwing), as opposed to "sport-person" in general. I think that's what the other poster was refering to.

Eh. As someone that speaks many a language and has studied them as well. I'm not going to buy this. So let's just move on from it.

 

[fanboy]

Here is a summary of Type I, IIa and IIb muscle fibre characteristics:

Fast-Twitch Vs. Slow-Twitch Muscle Fiber Types + Training Tips | NASM Blog

NASM experts discuss the importance of fast twitch muscle fibers and explore the best exercise and training tips to strengthen them. Learn more on the NASM Blog.

blog.nasm.org

Yes, agree with you that Type I (slow-twitch) is both lower-bulk and used in endurance sport (hence the typical marathon runner's lanky build). Living in a rugby-obsessed nation we had a lot of sports science content in our PE classes as schoolkids...
Although Type II is bulkier, since it produces more power per unit mass, you don't need that much of it. High jumpers aren't particularly heavily built for example.

Also see the blog's point that the ratio of Type I/II fibres that varies between athletes depending on the nature of their activities - in skating, besides jumps there are a lot of actions that require endurance-type muscles (postural control in stroking and footwork, holding positions in spins). We only have 2 legs so they need to multitask.
Another reason why the leg press alone is not ideal as a strengthening exercise for skating is because it doesn't effectively mimic functional movement. In comparison, squats (especially the 1-leg kind) recruit more core muscles and train balance, which makes them more sports-specific. To increase muscle firing speed, you'd add a plyometric component such as jumping lunges. At least, this is based on what physiotherapists told me during previous injury rehab.

Well, certainly it should not be the only practice. I'm sure people on the competitive edge would consult with their coach about strength training and any good coach wouldn't recommend doing just one movement. I've heard this "not functional movement" about the leg press from gym enthusiasts before. Some guys refuse to do leg press altogether and do squats instead. Personally, I prefer the leg press because there's less chance IMO for back injury and/or throwing the weights around if you train with extreme weights. That being said, happy training!

 

[fanboy]

F is much easier to increase than m to decrease, believe me!
A person who has increased her F by probably more than 100%: https://www.facebook.com/taylor.57k/, Ms. Taylor LaChapelle, a powerlifter.
A person who has decreased their m by 50%: https://mossfords.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/single-headstone-on-a-grave-main-image.jpg, a dead person.