Canada World Results 2008 | Golden Skate

Canada World Results 2008

Winnipeg

Final Flight
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Oct 30, 2007
I started a thread under the Worlds section regarding the possibilities for Dube/Davison and V/M to medal at Worlds. Please check it out.

If it is a given that these 2 pairs will be Canadian Champs (and I think they will be unless they have a terrible skate), how do you think they will fare @ Worlds.

My concern for D/D is lack of triple twist - how important is it?

My concern for V/M - unfair judging - there was a thread elsewhere which stated the dance event is already decided. Since V/M are new they will be deemed 'not to have done thier time yet' to get on the podium........I really hope the dance event is fair and if it is, I thnk they have a good chance to podium?

Thoughts?


With respect to mens and ladies..................I don't think we have a chance in XXXX of a podium finish. I hope I am wrong but neither Jeff nor Patrick are there this year IMO. Patrick may be able to do this in 2009 or 2010.
 
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I started a thread under the Worlds section regarding the possibilities for Dube/Davison and V/M to medal at Worlds. Please check it out.

If it is a given that these 2 pairs will be Canadian Champs (and I think they will be unless they have a terrible skate), how do you think they will fare @ Worlds.

My concern for D/D is lack of triple twist - how important is it?

My concern for V/M - unfair judging - there was a thread elsewhere which stated the dance event is already decided. Since V/M are new they will be deemed 'not to have done thier time yet' to get on the podium........I really hope the dance event is fair and if it is, I thnk they have a good chance to podium?

Thoughts?


With respect to mens and ladies..................I don't think we have a chance in XXXX of a podium finish. I hope I am wrong but neither Jeff nor Patrick are there this year IMO. Patrick may be able to do this in 2009 or 2010.

Great topic, Winnipeg.:clap:I don't think that the lack of triple twist will hurt D/D that much, especially if they are able to nail that new throw lutz that they've been working on and land the SBS jumps.

As for V/M, I really wasn't sure why they weren't on the podium, or at least closer to it, at the GP Final. Yes, they made a mistake in the OD, but it was minor. He didn't even put his free foot down when he bobbled on the twizzle. They're scores seemed a bit low, but I didn't see the event live so I can't judge their performace quality on that day. I personally think they belong on the podium, but anything can happen.

D/D and V/M have outside chances for medals, I guess. One or both teams could break through. I would put both teams at least fourth, unless either has a major mealtdown.

As for singles, Rochette doesn't have a great chance at the podium, but you never know with her. She's dangerous when she's on. Depending on which men go, I don't think Buttle will get one this year unless he has two of the really stellar skates that he's capable of, and Chan is still really young, so the PC's and lack of uad will likely hurt him.
 
I think Canada is unlikely to medal at worlds this year, though there are a couple of outside shots, if other skaters make errors.

That's where D/D stand — they could make it to third, if somebody has a bad skate at the top. Mostly, though, I'd like to see them skate well and finish in the top 5. I think that would be an accomplishment for them.

As for V/M, I think they definitely have the quality to stand on the podium, even compete for gold, if all it was about was the skating. We all know it's not though. I think, unfortunately, the GPF probably gave us a pretty good preview of where they might stand at worlds, at it's still just on the outside. I think the judges look on them as young and new and still paying their dues.

Ladies and mens are such competitive fields, and none of our skaters have given any indication they're really medal threats this season. Rochette, as always, could get there for bronze, but I think it would take big errors from several other skaters and she would have to be on, landing 3/3. I haven't seen a great skate from Buttle in a couple of years, so I'm hesitant to say he should shoot for anything more than a top 10. A top 10 for Chan would be an excellent result at this point in his career. A big problem is that neither of them have the quad, which means they necessarily have to hope for others to make errors if they want to be in the top group.
 
I think Canada is unlikely to medal at worlds this year, though there are a couple of outside shots, if other skaters make errors.

That's where D/D stand — they could make it to third, if somebody has a bad skate at the top. Mostly, though, I'd like to see them skate well and finish in the top 5. I think that would be an accomplishment for them.

As for V/M, I think they definitely have the quality to stand on the podium, even compete for gold, if all it was about was the skating. We all know it's not though. I think, unfortunately, the GPF probably gave us a pretty good preview of where they might stand at worlds, at it's still just on the outside. I think the judges look on them as young and new and still paying their dues.

Ladies and mens are such competitive fields, and none of our skaters have given any indication they're really medal threats this season. Rochette, as always, could get there for bronze, but I think it would take big errors from several other skaters and she would have to be on, landing 3/3. I haven't seen a great skate from Buttle in a couple of years, so I'm hesitant to say he should shoot for anything more than a top 10. A top 10 for Chan would be an excellent result at this point in his career. A big problem is that neither of them have the quad, which means they necessarily have to hope for others to make errors if they want to be in the top group.

I completely agree (unfortunately) I think V&M are the most likely to medal but I think they still have to pay some dues. D&D need to get a triple twist and one more difficult lift. Joannie - not gonna happen and the men - we'll have to wait for Patrick to pay his dues!!!
 
If the Chinese or Germans falter really badly D/D could sneak in with a medal but D/D lack the bigger tricks and more importantly the speed of those couples to finish ahead of them if they have decent skates.

As for Virtue/Moir, they have the OD and FD to medal (and even go for gold) with for sure, but they will be held down in the CD I think. They would have beaten the French earlier this year if it weren't for the CD.
 
I think D/D has no chance at a place on the podium, and will have to battle the two Russian teams even to have a shot at 4th place. Both Russian teams have improved quite a bit, and both have programs technically more difficult than D/D.

By 2010, there could be two more rising Russian teams in the mix: Ushakova/Karev and a new team (Ilushechkina/Maisuradze) who were quite impressive at Nationals.

D/D are going to have to make a decision about upping their technical, or they will be passed by newer teams.
 
I think D/D has no chance at a place on the podium, and will have to battle the two Russian teams even to have a shot at 4th place. Both Russian teams have improved quite a bit, and both have programs technically more difficult than D/D.

By 2010, there could be two more rising Russian teams in the mix: Ushakova/Karev and a new team (Ilushechkina/Maisuradze) who were quite impressive at Nationals.

D/D are going to have to make a decision about upping their technical, or they will be passed by newer teams.

I agree that they will be hard pressed to get a medal, but I can't understand why everyone keeps saying that D/D have very easy elements. Yes, they don't have a triple twist, and they do a double axel sequence if their FS, but other than that, I don't get it. They do the same throws and triple jumps as everyone else, and their lifts and spins and death spirals and footwork is just as complex if not more complex than what the other top teams are doing. I just don't get it. :scratch: I don't mean to target you personally, chuckem, and I respect you opinion, but I'm just curious. What does everyone else see that I don't? I mean, we could say that some of the Chinese teams have less tech difficulty than D/D because their spins and lifts are less complex for the most part and are not executed as cleanly, but no one ever does.
 
I agree that they will be hard pressed to get a medal, but I can't understand why everyone keeps saying that D/D have very easy elements. Yes, they don't have a triple twist, and they do a double axel sequence if their FS, but other than that, I don't get it. They do the same throws and triple jumps as everyone else, and their lifts and spins and death spirals and footwork is just as complex if not more complex than what the other top teams are doing. I just don't get it. :scratch: I don't mean to target you personally, chuckem, and I respect you opinion, but I'm just curious. What does everyone else see that I don't? I mean, we could say that some of the Chinese teams have less tech difficulty than D/D because their spins and lifts are less complex for the most part and are not executed as cleanly, but no one ever does.





:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::rock::rock::rock::agree::agree::agree::agree::clap::clap::clap:;)

ok, maybe I like the icons a tad too much, but they really communicate my reply to your statement.......:agree:
 
D/D not only lack difficulty in their programs, but they aren't particularly fast skaters. As D/D are both on the small side, they don't have the elegance and classic lines of the Germans. The Chinese teams have the nifty tricks, and both Russian teams seem determined to expand their difficulty.

D/D have 'pairness', but that in itself isn't enough to distinguish them from all the other top teams.
 
I agree with skatingfan 04 about Rochette. If she is on, she has the maturity, beauty,and nuances to win a place on the podium. I think she is one of the most underrated skaters on the world stage today. I can't forget how impressed with her I was when she did her Firebird routine a couple of years ago. She is a really attractive skater and I always cheer for her. I am an old granny from the USA, by the way. Maybe this is her year!!
 
I agree with skatingfan 04 about Rochette. If she is on, she has the maturity, beauty,and nuances to win a place on the podium. I think she is one of the most underrated skaters on the world stage today. I can't forget how impressed with her I was when she did her Firebird routine a couple of years ago. She is a really attractive skater and I always cheer for her. I am an old granny from the USA, by the way. Maybe this is her year!!


Joannie did her "Firebird" in the 2004-2005 season, when she made it to the GPF. That was 3 years ago. She finished 5th at the Olympics two years back, but her results have been disappointing since then. Rochette turns 22 this week, so if she's going to upgrade her skills, the time is now. Very few skaters add to their skills once they pass 21.
 
People on this forum keep saying yu-na has textbook jumps. However, they completely forget that Joannie has solid technique as well.

While Yu-na is winning over Mao due to her sound jumping techniques, Joannie is not getting credits for the execution of good techniques and losing to competitors who have wrong take-off edges (i.e. Nakano). Judges award Yu-na with huge positive GOEs for her techniques, then why not Joannie?

Some posters pointed out before figure skating has no longer about what jumps a skater does, but about how well she/he executes a jump. However, this trend doesn't explain Joannie's placements this year.

Ok, I understand Joannie is not a spectacular SP skater. But, she has been very close to nailing her LPs this year.
 
Joannie's PCS scores don't come even close to Yu-Na's, even when Joannie skates a fairly clean FS.

7.75 7.35 7.70 7.55 7.65 Yu-Na, CoR
6.95 6.50 6.95 6.80 6.95 Joannie, CoR

Part of the problem is that Joannie has been an inconsistent skater, and has never finished in the top 6 at Worlds (her last 3 finishes: 10th, 7th, 11th). Even though they're not supposed to, the judges DO protocol-judge. They won't give Joannie the PCS scores that even an inconsistent Kostner gets (7.20 6.80 7.15 7.20 7.05 for a messy NHK FS). But then Kostner is the 2007 Euros champion and was 5th at 2007 Worlds.

Joannie also skates very 'tight', with a somewhat stiff upper body, and you can see how much effort she expends to land her jumps cleanly. That tenseness may contribute to her tiring towards the end of her FS, where she frequently makes mistakes.

Skaters like Yu-Na and Mao skate so lightly and with such upper body freedom that they make the most difficult moves seem easy and effortless.
 
D/D not only lack difficulty in their programs, but they aren't particularly fast skaters. As D/D are both on the small side, they don't have the elegance and classic lines of the Germans. The Chinese teams have the nifty tricks, and both Russian teams seem determined to expand their difficulty.

D/D have 'pairness', but that in itself isn't enough to distinguish them from all the other top teams.
I respectfully disagree.

D&D do not lack technical difficulty in their programs. The base value of their short program is 33.80 and the base value of their long program (as of the GPF) is 58.65. These values are very competitive with those of the top teams, even without the 3twist. For sure, there’s still lots of room for improvement, but given how young they are, I expect we’ll see them continue to grow and improve significantly for at least the next couple of years.

Regarding their speed, have you seen them live this season? TV can be very deceptive. One very knowledgeable poster at FSU who attended Skate America stated he would have given them the win there simply based on their speed and ice coverage. I attended Skate Canada this year and found their speed to be very good to excellent in practice. They were a little slower and more cautious in competition, but still not slow by any means. Certainly they don’t yet skate with the power and confidence of the German team, but they were blazingly fast compared to K&S.

Also, FYI, D&D are no longer a “smaller” team. As shown in this photo, they are taller than S&S:

http://skateshutterbug.zenfolio.com/p748452404/?photo=h0C437D00#205749504

IMHO, they are one of the most elegant teams to come on the scene since B&S. Beautiful body positions and gorgeous “natural” stretch (as opposed to the very deliberate balletic “point” of the Russian teams). I guess this comes down to our own personal definitions. I would describe the Germans as powerful and innovative, not classical and elegant.

It’s difficult to predict where D&D will finish at Worlds since with the young teams there can be a quite a substantial improvement in skills and polish from the beginning of the season to the end of the season. Anywhere from 2nd to 6th is a possibility. 4CC’s will be a good test for them.
 
Joannie also skates very 'tight', with a somewhat stiff upper body, and you can see how much effort she expends to land her jumps cleanly. That tenseness may contribute to her tiring towards the end of her FS, where she frequently makes mistakes.
Again, I disagree. Joannie’s use of her upper body and arms in her jumps is textbook good technique and the main reason she so rarely underrotates. I was just marveling at how quickly she’s able to rotate her jumps because of the great snap she gets with her arms on takeoff. When she does miss a jump it’s usually because the timing is off or she’s picked in the wrong spot, not because she’s tight or stiff in the upper body. A tight upper body is a good thing in a jump. The little flubs at the end of her programs this season are most likely just due to nervous adrenaline running out.
 
Like I said in the other thread, I don't think D&D will medal unless one of the two Chinese teams or the German team has a major meltdown. Their lack of triple twist does hurt them, and while they are attempting throw triple lutz, they've yet to land it, and end up with less than a clean throw triple salchow or loop. Jessica's triple salchow is very inconsistent. Their spins are ok, but imo, really slow (though after their accident, I can hardly blame them). Their basic skating is good, but not as good as M&T (who are some of their biggest competition right now, IMO) or S&S. They are not slow but not particularly fast either - I don't like the Zhangs, but usually they are pretty fast. I think they'll be fighting with Kawaguchi & Smirnov and Mukhortova and Trankov for the 4th place, not a podium spot.

So basically, I think D&D do a lot of things well enough, but that's kind of the problem - imo, nothing they do stands out. I think they'll have to up their technical scores or dramatically improve their presentation (which isn't bad, just not outstanding) to be a podium threat.
 
Canada Worlds 2008

Pairs D/D unfortunately, predictable and slow. After seeing Buntin and Duhamel at Challenge if he gets his triple lutz they have the strength and power. Watch for Radford and Kirkland with Orser and Ingo at the boards!

Mens the top eight can switch places. After seeing Andreev at Challenge, the gauntlet has been thrown. Sitll Joubert, Takahashi and Verner have the quad and will dominate.

Women, nothing to speak of. Perhaps Dube will move forward over time.

V/M are our best (perhaps only?) hope for 2010. Let's hope after many years together this wonderful partnership stays true!

We have alot of building to do. The world competitors are training here in Canada and know us well. They continue to go beyond our best!

Our skaters need to get their heads on straight and meet them head on!
 
Pairs D/D unfortunately, predictable and slow. After seeing Buntin and Duhamel at Challenge if he gets his triple lutz they have the strength and power. Watch for Radford and Kirkland with Orser and Ingo at the boards!

LOL, Craig is 27. It’s doubtful that there’s a 3lutz in his future. They may well have their hands full with Kirkland & Radford over the next couple of years (provided Rachel doesn’t grow of course).
 
LOL, Craig is 27. It’s doubtful that there’s a 3lutz in his future. They may well have their hands full with Kirkland & Radford over the next couple of years (provided Rachel doesn’t grow of course).

I tend to agree, although I hope they prove me wrong. Buntin is gettng up there, they do not have the 'it' factor and Duhamel has a wrap jump style:ohwell::ohwell: I do not see this team as making a podium finish at Worlds ever, maybe B level senior events but unfortunately, that's it.
 
I respectfully disagree.

D&D do not lack technical difficulty in their programs. The base value of their short program is 33.80 and the base value of their long program (as of the GPF) is 58.65. These values are very competitive with those of the top teams, even without the 3twist.

Then why are they scoring so much lower than the two Chinese teams and the Germans? Their scores have remained stagnant since Skate America, while the other teams have improved with each performance. The reason is D/D are attempting harder elements, but they haven't been successfully executing them. The top 3 are far more consistent in their execution, and the two Russian teams have improved their difficulty and their scores over time.

For sure, there’s still lots of room for improvement, but given how young they are, I expect we’ll see them continue to grow and improve significantly for at least the next couple of years.

D/D are 20 and 22, and they are in their 5th year competing together. The Germans are older (24 and 28), and have been together only 4 years, but their rate of improvement has far surpassed what D/D have done. The Zhangs are also young (22 and 24), and they have been together the longest; while they have mastered the hardest 'tricks', they have a ways to go with interpretation---but they too have plenty of time to improve in the coming years.



Regarding their speed, have you seen them live this season? TV can be very deceptive. One very knowledgeable poster at FSU who attended Skate America stated he would have given them the win there simply based on their speed and ice coverage. I attended Skate Canada this year and found their speed to be very good to excellent in practice. They were a little slower and more cautious in competition, but still not slow by any means. Certainly they don’t yet skate with the power and confidence of the German team, but they were blazingly fast compared to K&S.

I saw them live at Skate America. D/D were slow even compared to the lesser teams who skated there, and IMO, their FS music is slow and repetitious and makes them look even slower than they actually are. Sure, D/D are faster than K/S, but then K/S are about the slowest team around; they have been together less than two years and still have a ways to go (but they have landed a quad throw).

Also, FYI, D&D are no longer a “smaller” team. As shown in this photo, they are taller than S&S:

Bryce and Robin are pretty much the same height, and Jessica is 2 inches taller than Alyona. But absolute height isn't the issue: it's the height difference between the two partners and their body proportions that set the overall look of the team. Alyona is fine-boned and tiny, while Robin is muscular with well-developed shoulders; when they skate together, the height difference is magnified. They both have great extension and stretch, so their lines are clean and elegant.

Jessica is small but she has a much more muscular build than Alyona, which makes her appear shorter even when she is stretched. Bryce is lacking somewhat in upper-body mass so he doesn't appear to be that much taller or more massive than Jessica (Tatiana Tarasova commented on Russian TV during the GPF that Jessica is "too big" for Bryce). Together, they just don't have the same elegance of line that the Germans do.


IMHO, they are one of the most elegant teams to come on the scene since B&S. Beautiful body positions and gorgeous “natural” stretch (as opposed to the very deliberate balletic “point” of the Russian teams). I guess this comes down to our own personal definitions. I would describe the Germans as powerful and innovative, not classical and elegant.

Yes, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. You are a D/D fan and you see them through rose-colored glasses. But given the huge difference between the PCS of the Germans and that of D/D, the international judges apparently don't see it that way and are far more in agreement with me.


It’s difficult to predict where D&D will finish at Worlds since with the young teams there can be a quite a substantial improvement in skills and polish from the beginning of the season to the end of the season. Anywhere from 2nd to 6th is a possibility. 4CC’s will be a good test for them.

The Zhangs and Mukhortova/Trankov are both young teams also, and both have improved since the beginning of the season. Zhangs already have the skills and they have been well rewarded with scores basically unattainable by D/D. Savchenko/Szolkowy have both skills and polish, and each performance has been better than the last. Pang/Tong have also improved with each performance, and beat D/D by 13 points at the GPF, even with mistakes. The problem D/D has is they are trying to learn new skills and so far have not been able to complete them successfully. It's tough to work on polish when the skills aren't there yet. I think that's why D/D's scores haven't risen since the beginning of the season.

Therefore, second or third, is highly unlikely. Fifth or sixth is where they will probably end up.
 
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