Canadian Skaters: From Favs to Underdogs?

[evangeline]

Instead of having a world-wide competition based on nations, why not do ethnicities? Or clans by last name? What is the deal with nations that makes them special?

The flighty circumstances of history and purposeful cultivation by certain interests.

 

[i love to skate]

By the time Tanith got her US citizenship, she and her parents had been living in the US for 10 years. Tanith had lived all her teenage and young adult years in the US.

BTW, Kaitlin Weaver did a similar rah-rah thing when she got her Canadian citizenship, but had lived in Canada for only 3 years.

Lots of foreign teams live and train in the US and there's no objection to their
presence here. But I guess you have strong objections to Adam Rippon, Yu-Na Kim and Christina Gao training in Canada under Brian Orser.

If you so object to Canadians doing their own thing, perhaps you should press for Canada to adopt "iron curtain" legislation to force Canadians to stay home.

When have I ever objected it?? I have said I find it flattering that people come here to train. I just found Tanith's performance too over the top for my liking - music, costuming, flag. Personal preference.

What exactly did Kaitlyn do? She went to her citizenship ceremony and posed for pictures with her certificate and Canadian flag. She did not do an exhibition number to O Canada....

I don't know anything at all about this team; why do you say they are more Canadian than Japanese?

The boy is Canadian and they live and train in Canada but they represent Japan.

 

[silverlake22]

I love all the Canadian figure skaters they are so athletic and have great attitudes!

 

[chloepoco]

The boy is Canadian and they live and train in Canada but they represent Japan.

Oh, I see. I don't think I agree that this makes them 'more Canadian' though, if the partner is a Japanese citizen. Otherwise, that same logic should apply to anyone else who trains elsewhere, which would be a good number of the top skaters.

 

[prettykeys]

If you so object to Canadians doing their own thing, perhaps you should press for Canada to adopt "iron curtain" legislation to force Canadians to stay home.

Yeah, leave i love to skate out of it, since it's I who expressed displeasure about it. Still, that leap of logic is brilliant. I can see that you are making an honest attempt at intellectual discussion, and it is clear my disapproval of certain individual choices means I want a strictly policed state with Iron Curtain laws. :thumbsup:

I don't know anything at all about this team; why do you say they are more Canadian than Japanese?

Oh, I see. I don't think I agree that this makes them 'more Canadian' though, if the partner is a Japanese citizen. Otherwise, that same logic should apply to anyone else who trains elsewhere, which would be a good number of the top skaters.

Often, certain discussions within a thread will be continuous across multiple posts, and reading previous posts will elucidate trains of thought that are not repeated entirely in subsequent posts. To this end, refer to post #17.

Also, if we are speaking in terms of logic (especially propositional logic), then a condition where we have "A and B" is not the same as "A or B", that is, when I am referring to about 4-5 criteria in arguing that Takahashi and Tran are "more Canadian than Japanese", it is not logical to suggest that only 1 or 2 criteria being fulfilled by other examples equals "the same situation." In fact, this thread is peppered by examples that do not use the same logic that I applied.

Furthermore, as I stated earlier, additional examples, if they could be found, would not change the fact regarding how I feel about the situation. All you would be doing is finding more examples that I would consider less than ideal.

 

[chloepoco]

Often, certain discussions within a thread will be continuous across multiple posts, and reading previous posts will elucidate trains of thought that are not repeated entirely in subsequent posts. To this end, refer to post #17.

I admit, I did not read this thread from the beginning, so I apologize for asking about something that was already addressed.

 

[janetfan]

Hmmm. I thought Ben did not want to become a Canadian citizen and that's why Tanith became an American. Is that not right? I could just be imagining that though.

BTW, after Tanith became an American citizen and skated that patriotic program with an American Flag. WOW. Talk about overkill!

Maybe a Dance fan will comment about Tanith and Ben's situation but I don't think Ben had a problem becoming a Canadian.

I think US Skating made it a point to help get Tanith's paperwork processed quickly so B/A would skate for USA.

I never minded Tanith with the flag or anything else

 

[i love to skate]

Maybe a Dance fan will comment about Tanith and Ben's situation but I don't think Ben had a problem becoming a Canadian.

I think US Skating made it a point to help get Tanith's paperwork processed quickly so B/A would skate for USA.

I never minded Tanith with the flag or anything else

chuckm provided some information in his post. Ben's dad was in the military and he did not want to skate for another country. I think it is going to be very interesting experience for Tanith in Vancouver to say the least!

 

[nylynnr]

Regardless of his feelings on the matter, it would have made little sense for Agosto to start the process for Canadian citizenship, because the team trained full-time in Detroit under Shpilband for many years. Gaining Canadian citizenship would have entailed at least a part-time residency requirement. In interviews, this is the answer Belbin and Agosto often gave, as to why Agosto never sought Canadian citizenship.

Tanith moved to the U.S. when she was 13. Unless the team wanted to relocate to say, Waterloo, and get coached by Paul McIntosh, Canadian citizenship wasn't a big option.

On Tran repping Japan -- when Kavaguti (formerly Kawaguchi) and her first partner competed for Japan, the JSF paid a large portion of Moskvina's fees and the pair's other expenses. It would make sense if it is also contributing to this current pair's coaching expenses, ice time, rink fees, etc., especially since Japan very much wants to participate in the ISU Team Trophy, cannot do so unless it has a pair, and there are few pair coaches and/or male skaters that can do pairs in Japan.

Re: the subject of this thread -- I think as Rochette and Chan's chances drop off a bit, V/M's chances get better.

 

[mycelticblessing]

You're illogical.

Taxes = pooled resources for collective use. So I'm not objecting to Tran's use, per se. However, by your reasoning, my own taxes are supporting foreign athletes. Yippee!

Secondly, I highly doubt that Japan (or the other nations) are helping to pay for the upkeep of the rinks, the roads, the living space, etc., but thanks for offering that thought.

Of course I didn't mean the upkeep of the rinks and roads, but the stuff which you were referring to in your earlier post, which was education and healthcare.

 

[Mathman]

...it's I who...

:thumbsup:

 

[Nadia01]

And I doubt very much that Tran is going to apply for Japanese citizenship, because he'd have to relinquish his Canadian citizenship to do so (Japan does not allow dual citizenship). Takahashi/Tran just can never compete at the Olympics.

If hes' not Japanese (citizen, that is), how is he going to represent Japan with Takahashi in international competitions? Or is it required only for Oly?

IIRC you are allowed dual citizenship in Japan...(I need to check w/ the immigration, but I'm pretty sure you can...?????)

I don't know if Tran has some special bye but it's very hard to get a JP citizenship unless your parent or g-parents were Japanese. It takes almost 10 years of residency to get a green card....

 

[chuckm]

Regardless of his feelings on the matter, it would have made little sense for Agosto to start the process for Canadian citizenship, because the team trained full-time in Detroit under Shpilband for many years. Gaining Canadian citizenship would have entailed at least a part-time residency requirement. In interviews, this is the answer Belbin and Agosto often gave, as to why Agosto never sought Canadian citizenship.

Detroit is fairly close to Canada. They could have commuted to training in the Detroit area while living in Canada. So that reason doesn't hold water.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I'm of two minds here.

On the one hand, the number of athletes born outside of Canada that have competed for Canada is considerably (Donovan Bailey, for example). And I do look at that with pride - I know many people in my own family that while benefit from living in Canada as Canadian citizens, they still feel a much stronger relationship with their ancestral country.

On the other hand, I am disappointed that a suitable partner for Belbin couldn't be found in Canada (or more accurately, that a more suitable one was found elsewhere). Additionally, it's really not fair to say that I'm fine with Weaver coming over and competing for us but the converse is somehow wrong.

Additionally, do we then continue that argument along the lines and say teams/skaters who's coaches/choreographers/etc are breaking some rule. Team Linichuk and Team Shpilband are pretty dominant in ice dancing, of their four major teams, only one is Russian. None of Shpilband's teams are Russian, are they? And what of teams that represent one country, but train and live in another?

Jennifer Kirk did an article on this, and she pointed out the difficulty in finding a pairs/dance partner. I would hate to lose a potentially good team because of issues in nationality. That pride goes both ways.

 

[chuckm]

If hes' not Japanese (citizen, that is), how is he going to represent Japan with Takahashi in international competitions? Or is it required only for Oly?

IIRC you are allowed dual citizenship in Japan...(I need to check w/ the immigration, but I'm pretty sure you can...?????)

I don't know if Tran has some special bye but it's very hard to get a JP citizenship unless your parent or g-parents were Japanese. It takes almost 10 years of residency to get a green card....

Only one member of a Pair or Dance team has to have citizenship in a country in order to compete at ISU competitions. But for the Olympics, both partners have to have citizenship in the country for which they are competing.

And no, Japan definitely does not recognize dual citizenship. If you apply for Japanese citizenship, you have to renounce citizenship in another country. For that matter, if a Japanese citizen applies for citizenship in another country, he/she loses his/her Japanese citizenship. By becoming a Russian citizen, Kavaguti lost her Japanese citizenship.

 

[i love to skate]

On the one hand, the number of athletes born outside of Canada that have competed for Canada is considerably (Donovan Bailey, for example). And I do look at that with pride - I know many people in my own family that while benefit from living in Canada as Canadian citizens, they still feel a much stronger relationship with their ancestral country.

On the other hand, I am disappointed that a suitable partner for Belbin couldn't be found in Canada (or more accurately, that a more suitable one was found elsewhere). Additionally, it's really not fair to say that I'm fine with Weaver coming over and competing for us but the converse is somehow wrong.

Good points. I think people can have dual citizenship and maintain connections to both places (My mother is Canadian-American). However, there has to be a country that a person identifies more with. When an athlete represents a country at the Olympics there should be some pride associated with that. Donovan Bailey has always said that he maintained a strong connection to Jamaica but when he won that medal you could tell he was proud to wear the Maple Leaf.

The issue I have with the whole citizenship discussion, is when skaters only receive citizenship from another country to further their skating career. For example, Fedor Andreev only decided to try and represent AZE because he didn't have a chance to go to the Olympics out of Canada. He had no interst in moving there or setting up roots.

I think it can be really weird for the athlete's families when they switch countries. For example, there is a young NHL player (Colin Wilson) who's parents are both Canadian. His father played on an American NHL team when he was born so Colin has dual cizitenship. He grew up in Winnipeg, played his youth hockey there, yet represents the USA in international hockey.

I remember an interview with his father during a US - Canada gold medal game at the World Juniors and his poor father had such mixed emotions about who to cheer for. Talk about an awkward situation. Might be a similar situation for some of Tanith's Canadian family at the Games. Of course, it's not as intense as hockey because of the rivalry but I think it could still be present.

 

[jcoates]

Just a random fact to toss at you now that we're talking switching nationalities, etc.

When Mirai made it big in the States, many in Japan made a big deal about the fact that Mirai can rep Japan since she is technically still a JP citizen. (dual) Also to this date, TV programs do NOT write out her name in katakana like they do with all foreigners. They always write out her name in kanji. (which I guess is fine since her name is Japanese, but it looks a lil odd to see an American flag next to 4 kanji characters...)

Of course despite my Japanese friends' protests, I saw no reason for Mirai to switch since ... does she REALLY want to compete with Mao, Miki, Akiko and Yukari for her chance to shine? Japan already has so many stars and its national darling (Mao).

Only one member of a Pair or Dance team has to have citizenship in a country in order to compete at ISU competitions. But for the Olympics, both partners have to have citizenship in the country for which they are competing.

And no, Japan definitely does not recognize dual citizenship. If you apply for Japanese citizenship, you have to renounce citizenship in another country. For that matter, if a Japanese citizen applies for citizenship in another country, he/she loses his/her Japanese citizenship. By becoming a Russian citizen, Kavaguti lost her Japanese citizenship.

It's true that Japan does not recognize dual citizenship for adults regardless of the second country. However, the rest of the details are a bit murky and are frankly a matter of one country's perspective versus another.

Take Kawaguchi ( or Kavaguti) for example. Since she was originally a Japanese citizen and chose to seek citizenship elsewhere, Japan effectively revoked her citizenship once her Russian citizenship was official. In other words, Japan no longer sees her as Japanese for citizenship purposes.

However, if Smirnov had chosen to represent Japan instead, he could have retained his Russian citizenship in the eyes of the Russian government because Russia recognizes dual citizenship, just not Japan's. Japan would have essentially chosen to treat his Russian citizenship as non-existent.

In Mirai's case, the outcome would be slightly different. Until she is 18, she can legally claim citizenship in both Japan and the US. After that point she will have to choose one country or the other. This is because the US recognizes dual citizenship with Japan and because Japan only enforces single citizenship on adults. This allows children of Japanese and foreign nationals can maintain formal ties to Japan and their relatives. However upon reaching legal adulthood, a choice must be made between the two countries in order to satisfy the Japanese government. If Mirai chose Japan and things did not work out there, she could still come back here and try again. But if she choose the US, Japan will no longer be an option, or at least not a quick one.

(PS I only know this because I have a friend who just went through this situation)

 

[prettykeys]

I'm of two minds here.

On the one hand, the number of athletes born outside of Canada that have competed for Canada is considerably (Donovan Bailey, for example). And I do look at that with pride - I know many people in my own family that while benefit from living in Canada as Canadian citizens, they still feel a much stronger relationship with their ancestral country.

On the other hand, I am disappointed that a suitable partner for Belbin couldn't be found in Canada (or more accurately, that a more suitable one was found elsewhere). Additionally, it's really not fair to say that I'm fine with Weaver coming over and competing for us but the converse is somehow wrong.

Additionally, do we then continue that argument along the lines and say teams/skaters who's coaches/choreographers/etc are breaking some rule. Team Linichuk and Team Shpilband are pretty dominant in ice dancing, of their four major teams, only one is Russian. None of Shpilband's teams are Russian, are they? And what of teams that represent one country, but train and live in another?

It is not just place of birth, though. Donovan Bailey is a naturalized Canadian citizen. He still partly grew up and got educated in Canada. And likewise, I would not find it unusual if a Canadian born in Canada moved elsewhere, grew up there, and chose to represent that new adopted country.

Using the analogy of biological or foster parents, they can both important while one may be of greater importance to a child. Some would argue that the place you grow up in, or the parent that actually raises you, is more important (personally I am of that persuasion. Yes, even if that means Canadian-born individuals move elsewhere and rep the new home. Because it's easier to bear a child, and much harder to raise a good person into adulthood.)

If the child favours the biological parent, then so be it (e.g. the ethnic tie over the national.)

But a child choosing to leave their parents and be adopted by a stranger because they're offering certain sponsorships and opportunities? I don't know...but then again, finding partners and good matches is difficult, so that is an added complexity that makes the decision tougher, I guess.

Do coaches or choreographers have loyalties? Perhaps coaches can, choreographers less so. But they're not as directly part of the arena, and I think they have slightly different agendas from their athletes.

 

[chuckm]

I don't think Tanith's parents have any mixed feelings about cheering for Tanith vs. a Canadian dance team. They have lived and worked in the US for the last 12 years and consider the US their home.

 

[gottadance]

Whats up with the Canadian men?

would love to hear from those knowledgeable about Canadain figure skating about why both Kevin Reynolds and Jeremy Ten have been so dissapointing this season. I didnt expect much from Vaughan Chipeur as I feel that he actually performed above himself last year and actually lacks the artistry to be a world clas skater . But Ten and Reynolds appear to have a wealth of potential that is going undeveloped . I do see some positive develpment in Reynolds but a regression with Ten - is it bad coaching , insuffecient practice or what ? I LOVE Canadian figure skating and think that Skate Canada do a great job but shouldn't they be stronly encouraging young skaters to change coaches when they are clearly not advancing?
Thaks for any input you can share on this frustrating issue.

Like many of you I do love Joannie but seems she has become an expert in making excuses - " I went to Peru for 3 weeks " " I am jet lagged " etc. Hoe she has the courage to confront her demons ( nerves ) and find a way to ackowledge the problem and a wy to deal with it at competitions .