Caroline Zhang

[demarinis5]

^ Yes.

SP 51.38 TES-25.98 PC-25.40
FS 94.80 TS-46.37 PC-48.43
Total Score 146.18

She did much better at Glacier which she placed 5th, than at this recent competition

 

[brightphoton]

Looks like Caroline is the new Fumie.

 

[Olympia]

I agree with this.^ I've watched many skaters over the years who really have no chance to make the podium continue because they love the sport. I don't really think Caroline has much of a chance to win a medal, but it is her time, her body taking the punishment, and her (or her parents) money. If she wants to continue, then she should do so. Its not up to me to say "retire". JMO

That's it in a nutshell! If I only spent my time watching contenders, I'd have missed out on some amazing skaters and lovely programs. Look at a couple like Roca and Sur, who did well a few times nationally but never got anywhere near the top internationally. Or Aren Nielsen, a wonderfully jazzy skater who had about two years in the sunlight and then left the amateur ranks. Or Gedevanishvili, or the splendid Rory Flack. Besides, one never knows about the future. A bottom-of-the-top-ten skater this year might surprise us--and herself--next year.

And hey! Didn't we all believe the Chicago White Sox couldn't possibly win the World Series? It hadn't happened in 96 years...but it happened in the 97th year. Never say never.

 

[kwanatic]

It's good to see her come out on top, but given her competition (and score), it's not saying too much.

Still, I'm happy to see her striving to get better. It's definitely an uphill battle...one that she may never win. However, I admire her determination and I really hope she has a decent skate at SA in a couple of weeks.

Alissa Czisny has turned me around in terms of poo-pooing people as far as retirement goes. I never would have thought she could have turned it around enough to win the GPF and a top 5 placement at worlds. I realize Caroline has a rather long way to go in terms of her skating, but never say never. It may take another 4 years, but I believe if she continues to work hard and improve she may once again find herself on a major podium...

 

[R.D.]

Thing about Czisny though is that she always had the POTENTIAL to be good if she could just find that consistency to go with her jumps. She took a big step forward last season but it remains to be seen whether it's simply another peak on the roller-coaster, or whether she has put her dark days behind her for good. The fact that she didn't fold after failing her first jump at Worlds is an encouraging sign, but a sign is all it is.

Sure, Zhang could turn things around long-term- she's still young after all- but I really think the odds are against that happening. There's too much ground to make up especially considering sport never slows down for anyone. Remember also that a single injury could put the nail in the coffin.

 

[brightphoton]

Oh puh-lease, Alissa's jumps were never any good. In the rare case that she actually landed them, they tended to eeked out, of low height, and without control. Even now, you can see Alissa concentrating very hard before her jumps, and they're still not particularly good. She's not that much faster than Caroline. If Alissa can do that and still be the darling of the USFSA, then Caroline certainly has a chance.

 

[kwanatic]

That's true. I really think this season will tell the tale for Alissa. I was shocked to see her bounce back after her opening in the FS. She's shown a tremendous amount of growth in terms of her focus and the way she was able to pull herself together and deliver a respectable program.

This season, there's a lot more pressure because the expectation is starting to build. It remains to be seen how she'll skate under the pressure of expectation. Last season, she wasn't really looked at as the one to beat b/c she always had that question mark over her head. Her winning the GPF was a huge surprise to everyone and then for her to keep it together and win nationals was an even bigger surprise. After her respectable skates at 4CC and worlds, now people will be expecting her to place at every event. That kind of pressure can break a person, so we'll have to see how she handles it.

Caroline's story is rather sad but I've given up feeling sorry for her. To be honest, the reason she is where she is right now is due to she and her coach's laziness. Caroline entered into the senior ranks and managed to do well (medaled at both GP events, 4th at the final). Had she started reworking her technique and issues then instead of waiting until 2009/2010 to do something about it, she'd probably be in much better condition than she is now.

More than that, I blame Mingzhu Li for allowing Caroline to develop the way she did prior to their split. I recall hearing that Caroline was self-taught for a while. Mingzhu coached Lu Chen; she knew what proper technique looked like. Why, I keep asking myself, did she allow Caroline to skate the way she did without correcting her for all of those years? See Caroline's problems stem from the roots of her skating which is why it's so difficult for her to correct them. I guess b/c Caroline was winning in the junior ranks, they figured it was okay. Unfortunately as it stands now, Caroline will be remembered as an excellent junior level skater who could not replicate that success on the senior level.

I really hope Caroline gets it together, but I stopped holding my breath for her a long time ago...

 

[mskater93]

Oh puh-lease, Alissa's jumps were never any good. In the rare case that she actually landed them, they tended to eeked out, of low height, and without control. Even now, you can see Alissa concentrating very hard before her jumps, and they're still not particularly good. She's not that much faster than Caroline. If Alissa can do that and still be the darling of the USFSA, then Caroline certainly has a chance.

But Alissa doesn't look like she's STRUGGLING to stroke and pick up speed throughout her programs, and I've practiced with and seen Alissa in person, she's not really slow; she definitely is way faster than Zhang (who I've also seen in person). Zhang's SKATING at Glacier Falls looked very labored on the video that was posted on youtube, especially after the halfway point. She didn't have that effortless flow and knee action that you expect out of a Senior Lady. If Alissa needs to concentrate going into her jumps, that's fine, it seems to be working for her since Jason and Yuka took over as her coaches. Many of her jumping sins were things that Julie Berlin just didn't fix; they were small things that Jason D has nitpicked, destructed and reconstructed. When you learn new technique or make changes to your technique after a long period of time, at first you HAVE to concentrate on it when you are under pressure. Once that is secure in your muscle memory, it won't have to be focused on as hard.

 

[PolymerBob]

However, I admire her determination and I really hope she has a decent skate at SA in a couple of weeks.

In addition to Skate America, she will also have to do either Regionals or Sectionals, perhaps both. This is actually a good thing, as it will give her more opportunities to show her new programs in front of real judges before Nationals.

 

[R.D.]

That's true. I really think this season will tell the tale for Alissa. I was shocked to see her bounce back after her opening in the FS. She's shown a tremendous amount of growth in terms of her focus and the way she was able to pull herself together and deliver a respectable program.

This season, there's a lot more pressure because the expectation is starting to build. It remains to be seen how she'll skate under the pressure of expectation. Last season, she wasn't really looked at as the one to beat b/c she always had that question mark over her head. Her winning the GPF was a huge surprise to everyone and then for her to keep it together and win nationals was an even bigger surprise. After her respectable skates at 4CC and worlds, now people will be expecting her to place at every event. That kind of pressure can break a person, so we'll have to see how she handles it.

RIGHT. We saw her spectacular (or rather, craptacular) crash-and-burn at 2009 worlds under the pressure to get 3 spots for Olys. Last season, most people counted her out so she was fighting back and had little or no pressure on her. (plus, the fact that it was the post-Oly season helped a lot IMO). But this season, now that she's shown that she can carry somewhat of a good streak, expectations will rise, and- she will go into GPF (if she qualifies) and Nationals as defending champ. And no one has been able to successfully defend their National title since the Kwan days.

I still don't think she will make it to Sochi (age, health could become a factor) but if she can take advantage of no Russian phenoms at Worlds to maybe grab a medal (see what I mean about expectations??), that'll be a good closing for her I think.

 

[herios]

There is no rule that says knowledgeable skating fans cannot comment favorably in any given situation. You know freedom of speech and all.
You accomplished 3 snarks in one post, really.

Freedom of speech are the foundation of a public forum, I cannot agree more. Based on that, you are entitled to give your favorable opinion about a subject, in this case Caroline's recent competition, and I am enntitled to give mine.
I was suprised to see so many excited posters hardly waiting for the video of her program, after she has scored 74.15.

Let's analyze a bit what her TES was in both competitions, because those scores should be comparable, the PCS is more subjective:

Glacier 46+ points for the following jumps: 3flip combo with a 3 turn between the two jumps, so not clean, 3 flutz, 3 loop, 2 axel, 3 loop combo with (2t/2l), 1 flip (popped), 2 axel.

Then she drops her TES here at this event to 36 points.
You tell me what could she have done less? From basically 2 clean triple loops and 2 double axels program if she scored 10 points less, she might had a 1 single clean triple and one double axel?
At which level such a LP is competitive may I ask?
So in 4 weeks timeframe instead of getting better and improving, she is getting worst?

Good for you for being optimistic. I think I am rather realistic.

 

[Sylvia]

In addition to Skate America, she will also have to do either Regionals or Sectionals, perhaps both. This is actually a good thing, as it will give her more opportunities to show her new programs in front of real judges before Nationals.

Caroline Zhang should have a bye through SWP Regionals (Oct. 14-18) because Skate America is the following week (Oct. 21-23). She most likely will have to compete at Pacific Coast Sectionals in November.

Not sure what you mean by "real judges" because club competitions usually use the same judges that judge at Regionals/Sectionals/Nationals and even internationally, too (same goes with the technical panel).

 

[PolymerBob]

Caroline Zhang should have a bye through SWP Regionals (Oct. 14-18) because Skate America is the following week (Oct. 21-23). She most likely will have to compete at Pacific Coast Sectionals in November.

Thanks for the info.

Not sure what you mean by "real judges" because club competitions usually use the same judges that judge at Regionals/Sectionals/Nationals and even internationally, too (same goes with the technical panel).

Quite correct, which is why I wrote "more opportunities".

 

[mskater93]

Not sure what you mean by "real judges" because club competitions usually use the same judges that judge at Regionals/Sectionals/Nationals and even internationally, too (same goes with the technical panel).

Very true, and a lot of later summer/early fall competitions will try and entice Regional/Sectional judges to come out for the marquee events.

 

[krenseby]

Zhang's SKATING at Glacier Falls looked very labored on the video that was posted on youtube, especially after the halfway point. She didn't have that effortless flow and knee action that you expect out of a Senior Lady.

You know, I think you make such an important point here. After her competitions, people often spend lots of time discussing what jumps she did or did not land. However, a tremendous improvement in basic skating skills would yield her a lot of points, probably just as many points as she could get from improving her jumps.

I would gather that she hasn't done as much as she needs to to skate more effortlessly and smoothly. There has been some improvement, that's quite clear, but there could be much much more.

Besides good skating skills aren't just a plus in competitions, they also make a skater appealing in exhibitions.

 

[demarinis5]

Freedom of speech are the foundation of a public forum, I cannot agree more. Based on that, you are entitled to give your favorable opinion about a subject, in this case Caroline's recent competition, and I am enntitled to give mine.
I was suprised to see so many excited posters hardly waiting for the video of her program, after she has scored 74.15.

Let's analyze a bit what her TES was in both competitions, because those scores should be comparable, the PCS is more subjective:

Glacier 46+ points for the following jumps: 3flip combo with a 3 turn between the two jumps, so not clean, 3 flutz, 3 loop, 2 axel, 3 loop combo with (2t/2l), 1 flip (popped), 2 axel.

Then she drops her TES here at this event to 36 points.
You tell me what could she have done less? From basically 2 clean triple loops and 2 double axels program if she scored 10 points less, she might had a 1 single clean triple and one double axel?
At which level such a LP is competitive may I ask?
So in 4 weeks timeframe instead of getting better and improving, she is getting worst?

Good for you for being optimistic. I think I am rather realistic.

My brief favorable opinion was about Caroline's SP. I did not post about her LP at all, you must be confusing me with someone else.

 

[bluelutz]

There is a good possiblity that the upcoming SA is going to be her final GPS appearance.
Once a skater loses a spot on GPS, with the current system, it is so hard to get back on it
especially from countries like U.S. got so many good skaters.

This season, she got the only one spot as the result of her last season,
and at this time it is not very realistic to think that she is going to be sent to the Worlds or 4CC
at the end of this season, where she can earn the points for the next season.

That means she really needs to medal at SA, or at least fourth maybe
to assure her spot for the next season.

Judigng with what she has been doing during this summer,
that would not be very easy.

Here is the entry list.

LEPISTÖ, GEDEVANISHVILI, KOSTNER, MARCHEI,
IMAI, MAKAROVA, HELGESSON, CZISNY, FORTE

Fortunately this is not the hardest one of this GPS,
many of these skaters are known to have a melt down,
but still not easy.
If Lepisto, Kostner and Czisny perform decently,
I really do not see Caroline medaling here.

Do you think she can medal among these skaters?

If she loses her spot, that means she falls off the list of international elite skaters,
and possibly that can take the motivation away from her as well.

 

[kwanatic]

^^Same sentiments expressed here:

http://thenakedice.blogspot.com/2011/09/jgp-volvo-cup-and-other-news.html

After the JGP Latvia stuff, there's some thoughts on Caroline's GWC win...

I have to agree. I'm glad she's continuing to compete, but it's going to be extremely difficult if not impossible for her to get back to where she was around the 2008-09 season (finishing 3rd-5th). Right now she's having problems cracking the top 10...:disapp:

 

[PolymerBob]

Do you think she can medal among these skaters?

If she loses her spot, that means she falls off the list of international elite skaters,
and possibly that can take the motivation away from her as well.

I don't claim to be an expert on the new rules. But as I understand them, Caroline could win Nationals, and the USFSA could not just send her to 4CC and Worlds like in years past. She must get a minimum score in an ISU event. Is this correct?

 

[vlaurend]

Freedom of speech are the foundation of a public forum, I cannot agree more. Based on that, you are entitled to give your favorable opinion about a subject, in this case Caroline's recent competition, and I am enntitled to give mine.
I was suprised to see so many excited posters hardly waiting for the video of her program, after she has scored 74.15.

Let's analyze a bit what her TES was in both competitions, because those scores should be comparable, the PCS is more subjective:

Glacier 46+ points for the following jumps: 3flip combo with a 3 turn between the two jumps, so not clean, 3 flutz, 3 loop, 2 axel, 3 loop combo with (2t/2l), 1 flip (popped), 2 axel.

Then she drops her TES here at this event to 36 points.
You tell me what could she have done less? From basically 2 clean triple loops and 2 double axels program if she scored 10 points less, she might had a 1 single clean triple and one double axel?
At which level such a LP is competitive may I ask?
So in 4 weeks timeframe instead of getting better and improving, she is getting worst?

Good for you for being optimistic. I think I am rather realistic.

Very few skaters enter competitions as close together as Glacier Falls and Golden West, and there's a good reason for that; it's difficult to regroup and be mentally and physically ready again that quickly. Caroline skated well and landed her jumps at Glacier Falls and even in the SP at Golden West. I think she just lost focus in the long program, and that doesn't mean she isn't capable of landing all of her jumps. While she is still flutzing, she landed a very nice 3F+2T in the SP at Golden West and her speed wasn't too bad, either. She just needs to keep her head in the right place for Skate America. . .