Changing Ice Dance Rules & Marina Anissina

[jcoates]

How about the 2010 GPF when DW only won by 9 over P/B? That has been the closest DW has come to losing.

This is incorrect. P/B were very close with D/W during the 2007-2008 season and were just behind them for part of the 2008-2009 season. They beat them at 2007 Skate America by about 13 points (although Charlie had gotten off to a very slow start that year due to injury.) In fact, P/B were winning GP medals before D/W.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpusa07/CAT004RS.HTM

Regarding margin of victory, D/W were behind K/N by 15 points at TEB that season and nearly 20 behind DelShoes. They did not settle for remaining behind them, but worked harder to improve over the next couple of years.

At Worlds in Sweden in 2008, P/B were leading D/W through both the CD and OD and barely lost to them by 0.68 after the FD.

BTW, depending on the number of lifts chosen, there are 1-2 fewer scored elements now than in 2006 since only one set of twizzles are called for.

There is nothing wrong with separating the teams based on high quality GOE if that is what the rules ask for. Perhaps the more accurate problem is that the rules as written may be too hard to execute well for some of the lesser teams. Those who excel at high levels of difficulty and who manage to weave it into their programs relatively seamlessly only look that much more superior when harder content is required.

 

[dorispulaski]

I would say that the problem, if there is any, is that Shpilband/Zoueva are massively better COP coaches than any other team at this team. It helps that their program is, by all accounts, a massively happy and drama-free program for the skaters. The result is that teams stay together longer in the S/Z shop.

An interesting take on the Shpilband/Zoueva program was by Karine Arribert, the coach of Blanc & Bouquet and other teams at Annecy in France. She reports that S&Z take a very individualized approach to training. There are no group lessons. And the approach is how do we get you to do a level 4 skill, not how do we copy so and so who is already doing a level 4 skill. I thought it was very telling. It's a long, interesting article.

http://www.annecy-infosports.com/?p=695

AIS : Why can’t there be room for everyone ? Those who have potential and results and those who have talent but not necessarily the rest ?

KA : That’s precisely what’s wrong in France. The approach is all about hierarchy, excellence is required, our average pupils aren’t taken into account. They aren’t taken into account and they aren’t helped, pushed. With such a policy… With all due respect to Delobel/Schönfleder… Muriel did a great job. The gift wasn’t very nice and she wrapped it beautifully. He was tall, she was small, he was slender, she was stocky. It didn’t look good and she worked her head off to push them in the light. But at the root, if you think of elitism… With the Federation, watch out, it can go far, we talk morpho-type here, it really goes far… My take on the subject is that FFSG doesn’t stand by its own athletes, it doesn’t provide them with the means to exploit their potential. It tries to adapt what works elsewhere, to a savoir-faire which isn’t ours. We have a real French savoir-faire, we have to stand by it. We never take responsibility for our work, we try to apply rules which work abroad, and it cannot work here, because we haven’t the same culture. FFSG has always looked for miracle cures. I went to countless seminars where I was shown Russian and American couples : “here it is, we must do the same on the elements”. And I used to say : no, we must get levels 4, sure, but why should we do exactly what Americans do ?

AIS : « Because, for them, it works » ?

KA : Yes, except you don’t become Igor Shpilband just because you want to. I went to work with him for one week, he has a smartness, a very personal way to do things. Our kids don’t have the same rigor, they do not train this way. With him, it’s only individual lessons, it’s a totally different way of working, so trying to adapt it to French system is useless. In France, we don’t say : “well, how can we evolve to level 4 ? ». We say : “look, it works for them, let’s do exactly the same ». Except it doesn’t work for us, because we are us, not them. I think all this is just too dumb, really.

That is a problem time will fix, as other coaching teams catch up. OTOH, as Arribert says, you don't become Igor Shpilband just because you want to. American pair coaches have not become Tamara Moskvina just because they want to.

And Shpilband didn't leave Russia for any guaranteed amount of money. He defected before the fall of the Soviet Union in 1990, when he was 25 or 26 . At the time, Shpilband was part of the cast in the Torvill & Dean ice dance tour. He and his partner retired from competitive skating after winning worlds in juniors in 1983, and after the death of their coach, the famous and amazing Lyudmila Pakhomova, 1986; he never made a splash at the senior level.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Shpilband

 

[jcoates]

Thanks for clarifying Igor's situation Doris. He gets unfairly lumped in with some other proponents of Russian training methods as just an opportunist of a traitor to his roots. I also get really irritated when he is referred to as a Russian in profiles on him or his teams. He is an American and has been officially for more than a decade. He paid all of his dues to earn that citizenship including leaving behind everything he knew without even a job or housing waiting for him here. That takes true courage and should not be dismissed. He really is the father of contemporary American ice dance. He should be honored for what he has done in States for that discipline.

Marina also gets short shrift. She came to Canada more for her son than for giving away Russian training secrets. She primarily worked in pro skating or with G&G during her early years in North America.

Platov is also a naturalized US citizen, something he is very proud of.

In fact, the US is not just some landing pad for many of these Russian coaches/skaters to temporarily occupy until the can go back to Moscow or St. Petersburg. Sure some have done that now that money making opportunities have increased. But just as many have stayed, sought citizenship and raised their children here. Klimova and Ponomareno have lived here nearly 20 years and have two sons born here with thoroughly American names. Gordeeva and Kulik could easily have moved back to Russia at any time for lucrative paydays, but have stayed here and raised their daughters. Linichuk and Karponosov also raised their daughter here. In fact, they have coached at least as many Russian teams over the years as non-Russians. Almost all the Russian ex-pats who were here during those peak years continued to train Russian skaters (Vasiliev, Moskvina, Tarasova, Morozov) to win Olympic gold and tons of World championships, often while being criticized for taking American resources for foreign gain. Seems to me that these complaints of Americanization are only cropping up now because non-Russians are finally getting the benefit in larger numbers.

 

[CARA]

Thanks for clarifying Igor's situation Doris. He gets unfairly lumped in with some other proponents of Russian training methods as just an opportunist of a traitor to his roots. I also get really irritated when he is referred to as a Russian in profiles on him or his teams. He is an American and has been officially for more than a decade. He paid all of his dues to earn that citizenship including leaving behind everything he knew without even a job or housing waiting for him here. That takes true courage and should not be dismissed. He really is the father of contemporary American ice dance. He should be honored for what he has done in States for that discipline.

Marina also gets short shrift. She came to Canada more for her son than for giving away Russian training secrets. She primarily worked in pro skating or with G&G during her early years in North America.

Platov is also a naturalized US citizen, something he is very proud of.

In fact, the US is not just some landing pad for many of these Russian coaches/skaters to temporarily occupy until the can go back to Moscow or St. Petersburg. Sure some have done that now that money making opportunities have increased. But just as many have stayed, sought citizenship and raised their children here. Klimova and Ponomareno have lived here nearly 20 years and have two sons born here with thoroughly American names. Gordeeva and Kulik could easily have moved back to Russia at any time for lucrative paydays, but have stayed here and raised their daughters. Linichuk and Karponosov also raised their daughter here. In fact, they have coached at least as many Russian teams over the years as non-Russians. Almost all the Russian ex-pats who were here during those peak years continued to train Russian skaters (Vasiliev, Moskvina, Tarasova, Morozov) to win Olympic gold and tons of World championships, often while being criticized for taking American resources for foreign gain. Seems to me that these complaints of Americanization are only cropping up now because non-Russians are finally getting the benefit in larger numbers.

ITA

 

[dwiggin3]

Amen!

 

[Dragonlady]

"The Americanization of Ice-Dance" makes me laugh because the ISU's Dance Technical Committee has been headed up by a Russian since before SLC. Alexander Gorshkov, now the President of the Russian Federation, headed up the Dance Technical Committee until he recently retired to become the head of the Russian Federation. The current committee chair is a Polish woman and the committee consists of the Chair and one other member from each of Poland, Russia, France and the USA.

The Americans or Canadians controlling ANYTHING in the ISU makes me laugh since neither country has been particularly strong in protecting its interests in the past.

 

[blue dog]

"The Americanization of Ice-Dance" makes me laugh because the ISU's Dance Technical Committee has been headed up by a Russian since before SLC. Alexander Gorshkov, now the President of the Russian Federation, headed up the Dance Technical Committee until he recently retired to become the head of the Russian Federation. The current committee chair is a Polish woman and the committee consists of the Chair and one other member from each of Poland, Russia, France and the USA.

The Americans or Canadians controlling ANYTHING in the ISU makes me laugh since neither country has been particularly strong in protecting its interests in the past.

I do agree with you that the Americanization of Dance is a bit laughable. However, the Polish woman you mention who chairs the committee (Halina Gordon-Poltorak) has almost always voted for an NA pair over a European pair. Case in point, she gave higher marks to Bourne/Kraatz at the 1998 Olympics over Anissina/Peizerat. She did the same for Punsalan/Swallow over both Lobacheva/Averbukh and Fusar-Poli/Margaglio.

 

[jcoates]

I do agree with you that the Americanization of Dance is a bit laughable. However, the Polish woman you mention who chairs the committee (Halina Gordon-Poltorak) has almost always voted for an NA pair over a European pair. Case in point, she gave higher marks to Bourne/Kraatz at the 1998 Olympics over Anissina/Peizerat. She did the same for Punsalan/Swallow over both Lobacheva/Averbukh and Fusar-Poli/Margaglio.

Well I think Punsalan and Swallow should definitely have been ranked ahead of L/A and FP/M in Nagano. They were clearly a top five team that year and, IMO, should have been in the running for a medal. Their FD was magical and is still one of my all time favorites (and apparently is also iconic as a tango for Staviski). B/K vs A/P is more debatable for me. I think the right team medaled in the end, but the documented cheating among the judges will always tarnish that event.

 

[dorispulaski]

For those who have never seen it, here is Punsalan & Swallow's tango FD from 1998 Worlds. Most of the Olympic videos disappear from youtube--I believe the IOC is enforcing copyright on them.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqvN2SSZgHo

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Thanks for clarifying Igor's situation Doris. He gets unfairly lumped in with some other proponents of Russian training methods as just an opportunist of a traitor to his roots. I also get really irritated when he is referred to as a Russian in profiles on him or his teams. He is an American and has been officially for more than a decade. He paid all of his dues to earn that citizenship including leaving behind everything he knew without even a job or housing waiting for him here. That takes true courage and should not be dismissed. He really is the father of contemporary American ice dance. He should be honored for what he has done in States for that discipline.

Marina also gets short shrift. She came to Canada more for her son than for giving away Russian training secrets. She primarily worked in pro skating or with G&G during her early years in North America.

Platov is also a naturalized US citizen, something he is very proud of.

In fact, the US is not just some landing pad for many of these Russian coaches/skaters to temporarily occupy until the can go back to Moscow or St. Petersburg. Sure some have done that now that money making opportunities have increased. But just as many have stayed, sought citizenship and raised their children here. Klimova and Ponomareno have lived here nearly 20 years and have two sons born here with thoroughly American names. Gordeeva and Kulik could easily have moved back to Russia at any time for lucrative paydays, but have stayed here and raised their daughters. Linichuk and Karponosov also raised their daughter here. In fact, they have coached at least as many Russian teams over the years as non-Russians. Almost all the Russian ex-pats who were here during those peak years continued to train Russian skaters (Vasiliev, Moskvina, Tarasova, Morozov) to win Olympic gold and tons of World championships, often while being criticized for taking American resources for foreign gain. Seems to me that these complaints of Americanization are only cropping up now because non-Russians are finally getting the benefit in larger numbers.

While I largely agree, I take issue with your first point. My parents are immigrants to Canada and have actually been in Canada longer than their place of birth (which they left as adults), but are fiercely patriotic (to both countries) and wouldn't disregard their heritage so casually as you seem to with Shpilband's.

 

[CARA]

While I largely agree, I take issue with your first point. My parents are immigrants to Canada and have actually been in Canada longer than their place of birth (which they left as adults), but are fiercely patriotic (to both countries) and wouldn't disregard their heritage so casually as you seem to with Shpilband's.

I suppose there is a difference between an immigrant and a defector. From my experience, many immmigrants remain patriotic to both countries, but defectors' feelings toward their mother country appear to be more conflicted. I also see many defectors fiercely patriotic to the country that accepted them (the defectors).

 

[jcoates]

Pogue, I did not mean to imply that Igor or any other immigrant may not have any strong feelings of patriotism or affection for their native country. Igor clearly still loves, Russia, but he made a conscious choice to move here, start a family here, and remarry here. He speaks proudly of his American citizenship. Still, in virtually every article or profile I have ever read where he is mentioned (and I've read hundreds of them), he is almost exclusively referred to as a Russian. Not a Russian-American. Not a Russian immigrant or resident. A Russian. I find that to be grossly unfair and dismissive of his enormous personal sacrifice and hard work. That was the only point I was making.

Due to their professional and Olympic level accomplishments for Russia and the Soviet Union, the American press has a lazy tendency to dumb down references to Russian-American skaters and coaches based on their country of birth rather than their current nation of residence/citizenship. It's an old leftover of the Cold War. Martina Navratilova still has to endure such references, despite living here for 2/3 of her life and having been a citizen for 30 years. She has represented the US internationally at majors, in Fed Cup and the Olympics. She's helped mentor and nurture young American players and actively roots for US success. She also still loves the Czech Republic; frequently visited her parents there while they were alive; even had her citizenship restored and has ambitions to open an academy there. But she is very clear that she is an American. She, like Igor, defected (as an 18 year old) suddenly with little warning and was cut off from family for years. Yet to this day, she is often omitted from stats lists of American women who won majors, held the #1 ranking, etc. simply because she was not born here. That happens despite the fact that she achieved almost all of her success as an American. (16 of 18 major singles titles; all her major winning streaks; her historic doubles partnership with Pam Shriver; nearly all her years at #1, etc.) Instead, distinctions like American-born are used to exclude her and highlight her chief rival, all-American Chris Evert. Even more than an decade after they retired, that terminology was still used to highlight Chris's accomplishments even though Martina's were more recent simply because Martina was Czech-born.

Please understand, I do not wish to erase Igor's Russian heritage. But as a matter of citizenship and residency, he is an American and that status should be honored. He may retain Russian citizenship since both nations allow dual status, but he chooses to live with his wife here exclusively, to run his business here, to raise his daughter here. He is not shuttling back and forth between the US and Russian as some other immigrants do. He is clearly committed to a life here. That speaks volumes to me about him and his choices.

Now I realize that not every immigrant will make the same choices that Igor has. Immigration is undertaken by different people for different reasons and is a deeply personal decision. For some it is purely personal. For others, there are financial incentives involved. Marriage and family ties can also play a role. So can employment, exile, etc. However, I don't think any one immigrant is entirely the same as another in terms of why they choose a new home. I'm sure your parents are firmly patriotic to their native land as well as Canada. But not every immigrant has such strong feelings toward their homeland. What they do have in common is their choice to live in a new land and forge new lives for themselves. That brave choice should never be dismissed.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I suppose there is a difference between an immigrant and a defector. From my experience, many immmigrants remain patriotic to both countries, but defectors' feelings toward their mother country appear to be more conflicted. I also see many defectors fiercely patriotic to the country that accepted them (the defectors).

My parents made the decision in the morning. They left in the evening. The other option was imprisonment or death. I won't deny that feelings towards the mother country are conflicted, though.

jcoates, I understand where you're coming from, and I think a full discussion of this would entail a far more profound analysis of politics and culture than we can do here (though if you want, drop me a pm), but I really don't view this as an either-or issue. I referred to him as a Russian-expat with American citizenship, and I think that does credit to both his birthplace and his choices.

 

[gmyers]

In articles - like this one from the New York Times- http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/02/sports/02iht-ARENA02.html?_r=1 Shpiliband is not treated any differently from the ones who left Russia not defected from the Soviet Union. The Name of the article is "Russians Triumph, on the Coaching Side." Maybe he should be treated differently because he defected with no real expectation of going back - thought maybe that is not accurate because it was Gorbachev era - but then why would he defect? Anyway- because so many left Russia for money or stability or whatever he gets lumped in with all of them even the ones who were just in the US briefly. They are in North America so it is easiest for North Americans to have them as coaches and only teams coached by them were on the world podium and they get the biggest scores and so on and so forth.

 

[Dragonlady]

I do agree with you that the Americanization of Dance is a bit laughable. However, the Polish woman you mention who chairs the committee (Halina Gordon-Poltorak) has almost always voted for an NA pair over a European pair. Case in point, she gave higher marks to Bourne/Kraatz at the 1998 Olympics over Anissina/Peizerat. She did the same for Punsalan/Swallow over both Lobacheva/Averbukh and Fusar-Poli/Margaglio.

Halina Gordon-Poltorak has only been head of the Dance Technical Committee since Gorshkov left in 2010 to head the Russian Federation. He Chaired the Dance Technical Committee during the introduction of CoP and during all of the scoring/technical changes leading up to the Vancouver Olympics, including the decision to scrap the CD, although that was a function of trimming time/ice time from the Olympics and other competitions. So if we are to believe that Dance has been "Americanized", the current President of the Russian Federation spearheaded the drive to change the rules so European teams would lose. Riiiiiiight.

 

[gmyers]

Well it has been Americanized anyway because only the American teams are really successful if you go by the current world medalists so the American way of doing things and getting the high scores needed to win is something all the other teams have to adopt. That is what the judges are saying when all the teams are together at a worlds. I forget the reasons why Gorshkov left. Were there term limits? Did he think he did a great job and ice dance was where he wanted it to be?

 

[Buttercup]

The discussion on immigration is very interesting to me. I'm not an immigrant myself, but have lived in two different countries/cultures and know many people who are immigrants. I think it makes perfect sense that someone who immigrated to a new country/culture would have a primary identity, but would feel that both cultures are part part of his/her heritage.

The Americans or Canadians controlling ANYTHING in the ISU makes me laugh since neither country has been particularly strong in protecting its interests in the past.

So NA skaters win on merit, and everyone else wins based on political maneuvering?

Say, wasn't David Dore one of the people most responsible for developing and implementing the current system? And he's a very powerful skating official - maybe the most powerful person in figure skating these days. I don't think he's Russian. In fact, if I'm not mistaken... he's Canadian! And yet strangely, I do not think this means all his decisions are meant to give Canadian skaters an unfair advantage.

 

[dorispulaski]

As to what Gorshkov intended, I am also sure he did not intend to leave an era in ice dance where it was perceived that Canadians and Americans dominated. However, many an action has unintended consequences.

I'm sure he never thought that Shpilband teams would place 1 & 2 in a competition which had 44% of its scoring due to very precise execution of a CD. Shpilband had been loud in his opinion that CD's should be eliminated, and his teams had always scored worse in the CD's than in the other two phases of competition.

The current distribution of scoring in the SD is very favorable to good CD skaters.

A level 4 Rhumba or Golden Waltz sequence has a base value of 7.00, so two of them in an SD is 14 base points.

A level 4 twizzle is 6 base points, a level 4 step is 8, a level 4 lift is 4, so only 18 base points, max for the other 3 skills in an SD

And yet D&W and V&M had two of the best Golden waltzes, and D&W had the best technical GW of the competition.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2011/wc2011_IceDance_SD_Scores.pdf

In reverse order, here's how the CD would have turned out, on the technical side:

These teams had the top tech CD scores of those who had one level 4 and one level 3:

W&P 14.07
S&S 14.14
B&S 14.15
P&B 14.86
V&M 14.93

These teams had 2 level 4 sequences of the GW
C&Z 14.86
C&L 15.07
C&P 15.14
I&K 15.22
D&W 16.00

You can change the rules in a way that you think will favor one set of teams over another, but all teams can learn and improve.

And your favored teams actually have to skate the way you think they can.

 

[KKonas]

Gorshkov was an ineffective leader and was aging out of the ISU. You can "thank" Cinquanta and Canadians David Dore and Ted Barton for COP. It's hilarious to me that it's now the "Americanization of ice dance" when the US had zero input into COP and mostly fought against its implementation, wanting to hold onto the 6.0 system instead. Scott Hamilton, Dick Button and other skating luminaries and officials held press conferences trying to fight the change, and several ISU judges/officials lost their ISU credentials as a result of opposing the ISU changes. Our recent success in ice dance has been 21 years in the making, thanks mostly to Igor Shpilband, who brought his Russian dance training skills to the US. I, for one, was in favor of the change.

 

[Serious Business]

The idea that the podium result at one world championships indicates any kind of trend is ridiculous. It is statistically and factually insignificant in support of any long term, wide range trends. It's a dishonest and ignorant way to manipulate data: by ignoring most of it. For example, one can just as easily present the data of podium finishers at Worlds ice dance to reach the opposite conclusion: Since the implementation of COP, 5 of the 7 ice dance champion teams have been European. Clearly, the system is rigged to favor those wine-swillers! Of course, that's just as ridiculous a conclusion.

No, we don't have enough data from World podium placement since the implementation of the COP to draw any kind of conclusion. To do so, other evidence is needed. Anybody who wants to claim COP ice dancing is rigged to favor US and Canadian dancers must provide concrete proof of corruption and systemic inequalities. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Bring it or get gone.