Coaching team approaches/workload

[Mrs. P]

There's been a lot of discussion as of late, in light of several coaching changes, of the following.

1.) What is too much of a load for one coach to handle? Of course the main targets is Toronto Cricket Club's coaching team which now has added Jason Brown, Boyang Jin and Evgenia Medvedeva to it's ranks. It already had Yuzuru Hanyu, Stephen Gogolev, Conrad Orzel, Jun Hwan Cha and Gabby Daleman. The other big center is Montreal's Gadbois Ice Dance group which just added Hawayek and Baker and Chock and Bates among others.

2.) Can pecking order be a problem for some of the new skaters to these new coaching teams? Will Jason Brown get screwed cause he's the "unexpected third recruit?" Or, as discussed in the U.S. ladies thread, a problem for the long-timer. Will Mariah Bell suffer with with Raf taking on Marin Honda and Eunsoo Lim? Other threads noted concerned over whether Yuzuru will be negatively impacted by the new skaters at TCC.

3.) The team approach: A good way to spread expertise or a case of too many cooks in the kitchen. What will it look like for skaters who were accustomed to having one main coach?

It's been discussed in a lot of other threads -- so in the interest of keeping those threads on topic and maybe thinking about this more, here's this thread. Discuss.

 

[andromache]

I would hope that once an elite skater has reached adulthood and is from a federation that allows them the freedom to choose their coach that, if the skater felt that they were not receiving enough attention or that they were low in the pecking order, they would seek other coaching options. I imagine that Raf has the same fees for Mariah and Nathan - and if Mariah is paying the same as Nathan and receiving significantly less in day-to-day training, you'd think she'd be ticked off and want to go elsewhere.

Same goes for Cricket Club and Gadbois. These skaters are all paying out of their own pockets (aside from Jin, and maybe Evgenia) - none of them have significant wealth other than probably Hanyu, I would imagine. Every dollar they spend counts, and if one skater's $2000 isn't getting them the same level of care as another skater's $2000, I can't imagine being content with that.

And let's not underrate the importance of great support coaching that comes from individuals under the head coach. I doubt Eteri is dedicating all of her time to her junior and novice skaters; whoever is responsible for supervising their training when Eteri isn't must be doing a heck of a job.

I think we'll continue to see team coaching approaches increase. IJS is all about individual elements, and as technical envelopes continue to be pushed, coaches naturally have areas of strength and areas of weakness.

I want to note we've also seen skaters take a team approach to their coaching even when there isn't an established team in place. Two seasons ago, Nathan spent quite a bit of time with Marina and was less than communicative with Raf about it, though he continued to work with Raf, as well. And Vincent has several coaches as well, all of whom are used to being head coaches. Skaters seem to want multiple points of view.

 

[JSM]

Even a lot of skaters at lower levels have a "team" coaching approach. They may have a main coach but see a spin specialist, or a moves specialist, or a choreographer, or all of the above.

In general (edit: in the North American system afaik) you pay for the coaches' time, and during that time frame they are 100% focused on you and your skating.

Most skaters, by the time they hit the elite level, are pretty darn self motivated. They have a training plan in place and they go do it, and they don't need (or want, I imagine) a coach with them every second they are on the ice. As a skater you need time to practice what you have learned and what you've been told.

I'm sure Brian Orser and his crew (and other head coaches with their own teams) are able to manage the skaters just fine. He's coached multiple Olympic Gold Medalists for a reason, he probably won't bite off more than he can chew.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

I think Tutberidze might have the biggest group, and they seem to succeed with having multiple coaches around: Dudakov, Gleikhengauz, Rozanov, the off-ice choreographer Zheleznyakov (sp?)

 

[chopinskate]

Same goes for Cricket Club and Gadbois. These skaters are all paying out of their own pockets (aside from Jin, and maybe Evgenia) - none of them have significant wealth other than probably Hanyu, I would imagine. Every dollar they spend counts, and if one skater's $2000 isn't getting them the same level of care as another skater's $2000, I can't imagine being content with that.

Is this true? Yes, Jin will likely be paid for by his fed, and Medvedeva might get funded, too, but wasn't Hanyu initially funded, and maybe still is? Cha is probably funded, too?

 

[Rissa]

Is this true? Yes, Jin will likely be paid for by his fed, and Medvedeva might get funded, too, but wasn't Hanyu initially funded, and maybe still is? Cha is probably funded, too?

There was a list of JSF skaters somewhere, where they were sorted into groups, "special class", "class A" etc and Hanyu along with few others was in the top group. The implication was that those groups were mainly about the level of funding. Plus, doesn't he have airlines sponsoring him?

I imagine that all skaters from Asian countries which have a national program in skating get funded. Marin Honda and Ensoo Lim with Raf, Cha, Jin, Hanyu, Shingo? - with Orser. I'm not sure about Tursynbaeva, but she might be too.

 

[Mrs. P]

Is this true? Yes, Jin will likely be paid for by his fed, and Medvedeva might get funded, too, but wasn't Hanyu initially funded, and maybe still is? Cha is probably funded, too?

I think pretty much all the elite skaters there get funded to some point. It's a matter of how much funding they receive.

In Jason's case, he'll be in the second to highest level of funding from USFS due to being at GPF (Envelope A, Tier 2). But I don't know how much money that is.

 

[andromache]

There was a list of JSF skaters somewhere, where they were sorted into groups, "special class", "class A" etc and Hanyu along with few others was in the top group. The implication was that those groups were mainly about the level of funding. Plus, doesn't he have airlines sponsoring him?

I imagine that all skaters from Asian countries which have a national program in skating get funded. Marin Honda and Ensoo Lim with Raf, Cha, Jin, Hanyu, Shingo? - with Orser. I'm not sure about Tursynbaeva, but she might be too.

Ah, didn't realize that Japanese athletes and/or athletes from other Asian countries get enough funding to cover training. (We might not know how much $$$ US skaters get, but we can surmise it's not nearly enough to cover training costs. Canadians seem similar to US athletes. Sorry to make assumptions and generalize!!)

As for sponsorships, I consider that to be money coming from the athlete's pocket. They've earned the money in addition to whatever they get from their federation.

 

[Interspectator]

There certainly seems to be a trend towards these larger coaching teams and groups.
I guess we can compare this season, how the young skaters progress with a big club, or a single coach.

Stephane and Deniss on one hand and Brian and Boyang on the other?
Personally, these two skaters are ones who I really want to do well, they are fan favorites as well. My hope is that both coaching arrangements work in the best possible way for them.

Thinking about TCC in particular, the environment didn't work out for all their students so some left. Did they do better elsewhere?
I think Adam Rippon found a good place with Raf, but it took a few seasons for him to find his consistency.
Nam is still searching for it.

On the question of funding, Yuzu is an employee of ANA (the airline), so he is fully sponsored by them since 2013 I think.

 

[TGee]

Dropping a line to note that there are departures at TCC that haven't been taken into account in this discussion.

Ilyushechkina/Moscovitch's retirement means that they don't have a senior elite pairs team with the associated pairs ice requirements. (Skate Canada has confirmed Lubov is going to Cirque du Soleil.). This may be one of the reasons their ice schedule is evolving, as we saw pairs training vids from the other rink.

It appears that Lee Barkell will be focusing more on singles and will have more time for incoming seniors.

BTW Lee is Gabby Daleman's primary coach, not Brian, and they are listed in that order in her ISU bio.

Also, Brian had been coming into TCC Saturdays for the past two seasons to accommodate Alaine Chartrand and her coach. That situation has ended and Alaine's ISU bio includes Brian in her list of former coaches.

Hope this helps balance out the TCC picture...

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I think Tutberidze might have the biggest group, and they seem to succeed with having multiple coaches around: Dudakov, Gleikhengauz, Rozanov, the off-ice choreographer Zheleznyakov (sp?)

Eteri's is not the biggest group by any means.

Gadbois has a bigger group, as does TCC, and Canton, MI as well. There's also Raf's team in California.

 

[Krunchii]

Like Gabby, Conrad's main coach will be Lee Barkell and not Brian actually, not sure yet what Brian's role with Conrad is. At TCC Brian has Tracy, Karen Preston, Ghislain Briand, Paige Aistrop and more so he's hardly "one coach." TCC has a very, very well organized system going on in terms of organizing ice time and training.

I imagine skaters who haven't quite achieved the "full package" such as Conrad, Jun Hwan and Boyang Jin may work more with Tracy for skating skills or Paige on spins than with Brian/Lee.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

It also appears that Jason B. will have Lee and Karen as his predominant coaches with Brian and Tracy there as well.

 

[el henry]

The article announcing Jason's move, with the quotes from Brian, does not say that any one particular person will be Jason's predominant coach, but that he will in fact work with a true team.

From the IceNetwork article:

" At the outset, Brown will not have a primary coach in Toronto; instead, his team will consist of Orser, Tracy Wilson, Karen Preston, Lee Barkell and choreographer David Wilson. 'He's a great kid, with great energy,' Orser said. 'Tracy was really impressed with everything about him. The important thing in us taking him was that he was willing to work in a team effort and not always with one base coach.' "

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018...nlists-orser-to-help-him-reach-full-potential

This approach is just perfect for Jason, IMO. Also so very impressive, when Brian could have easily said, "nope, too full, can't take any more", that he was willing to make these arrangements to be able to take on Jason. Also, from previous articles, I see how much Brian relies on the team approach and in particular on Tracy's judgment.

But all the new TCC skaters have certainly lead to a million great Pokemon and Avengers memes

 

[Mrs. P]

Based on what TGee states (thanks, btw), then it sounds like the situation at TCC is pretty fluid and the coaching arrangements may be adjusted and tweaked over time.

There really isn’t any shame if Jason works with Lee Barkell more than the others if that is how it ends up working out. He coached Nobunari Oda, who is one of Jason’s favorite skaters. And Nobu is still slaying quad toes in shows at age 31, so whatever he got from Lee was pretty good.

 

[lichi]

According to TSL, Tursynbaeva is leaving, so that may lighten up with workload for TCC. Then again, they also suggested that she's going into pairs... :scratch3:

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Based on what TGee states (thanks, btw), then it sounds like the situation at TCC is pretty fluid and the coaching arrangements may be adjusted and tweaked over time.

There really isn’t any shame if Jason works with Lee Barkell more than the others if that is how it ends up working out. He coached Nobunari Oda, who is one of Jason’s favorite skaters. And Nobu is still slaying quad toes in shows at age 31, so whatever he got from Lee was pretty good.

This is what I have been trying to make the point of here since the announcement was made that Jason was going to TCC. But others (not you Mrs. P) want to keep spewing an article that I also read. Jason is going to fall into the same grouping as many of Brian's students he may be mainly overseen by Lee and Karen and then also have time with Brian and Tracy. I know how things work at different training facilities and that is all I was stating. I'm glad that what TGee and Krunchii stated backs that up.

 

[4everchan]

i think it's fine for users to discuss these things but these people, the coaches and administrators of clubs etc, know what they are doing. They know what it means to take students, how much time each student will need (it varies) ... i feel like the discussions that are angled in the "they've taken way too many" are dismissive of the competences of the coaches and almost accusatory in the sense that even before it all started, users are doubting they will be able to take their responsibilities.

What I think :
1) none of our business... if students are not happy, they will leave and as much, it is up to Brian or others to decide about his/their own schedule....
2) the elite skaters don't need babysitters... nor 24/7 attention
3)skaters are not on the rink all day : they do off-ice, physiotherapy, dance, etc
4) people are underestimating how much coaches can do, yet overestimating what their duties are.

We are talking about elite skaters. They are not kids who haven't yet learned how to do a waltz jump...

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

i think it's fine for people to discuss these things but these people, the coaches and administrators of clubs etc, know what they are doing. They know what it mans to take students, how much time each student will need (it varies) ... i feel like the discussions that angled in the "they've taken way too many" are dismissive of the competences of the coaches and almost accusatory in the sense that even before it all started, people are doubting they will be able to take their responsibilities.

What I think :
1) none of our business... if students are not happy, they will leave and as much, it is up to Brian or others to decide about his own schedule....
2) the elite skaters don't need babysitters... nor 24/7 attention
3)skaters are not on the rink all day : they do off-ice, physiotherapy, dance, etc
4) people are underestimating how much coaches can do, yet overestimating what their duties are.

We are talking about elite skaters. They are not kids who haven't yet learned how to do a waltz jump...

 

[andromache]

According to TSL, Tursynbaeva is leaving, so that may lighten up with workload for TCC. Then again, they also suggested that she's going into pairs... :scratch3:

Just came here to see if this rumor has been mentioned anywhere else.

Again, TSL tends to be right about these things...then again, Dave mentioned this one offhand in a video and not a tweet, so who knows. But it would not surprise me that Tursynbaeva would leave BOrser at this time, considering both the number of new students he's taken on plus her overall stagnation. She's tiny and fearless enough to be a pairs girl, so who knows? I'd love to see her continue competing in a new discipline.