Dornbush to replace Abbott at 4CC's

[Mathman]

...as though USFSA knew Abbot would be injured somehow or something.

I think there is a good chance that the USFSA did know that Abbott would be "injured."

The ISU wants the USFSA to send, or at least to list, their national champions to Four Continents in order to build up the prestige of the event. They did. Who could ever image that the top guy would suddenly come down with back pains and need to rest and prepare for worlds without the untimely distraction of Four Continents?

 

[dorispulaski]

yeah

The moment I saw Dornbush was suddenly first alternate, I suspected that USFS knew Abbott wouldn't be going at the time they named the teams. I didn't say so because I hoped to heck it wasn't true.

 

[Spun Silver]

I'm too finding the moral outrage and the flying accusations of racism, homophobia, lying, and poor sportsmanship excessive. If the current US policy was to count only Nationals, then of course this would be a big violation. However, they have a new policy and are actually using it (gasp) in order to try to win medals and additional slots at Worlds.

I don't find it at all peculiar that the USFSA is saving aging athletes like Jeremy and Alissa, at least one and probably both of whom were recently injured (since I take the announcement re: Jeremy's injury at face value), for Worlds. If they can't make decisions like that, what are they there for? And after what happened with Rachael last year, they have good reason to be particularly cautious about ensuring the skaters are competing injury-free.

Sure, they could be lying about Jeremy, but I will believe that when I see some evidence. I don't like unfounded accusations.

My main concern is doing well at Worlds and I don't think it's a long shot to assume that is the goal of the USFSA as well. Prove me wrong!

 

[dorispulaski]

That would be where the difference is.

While I would like to see the US do well at Worlds, my biggest concern is for the skaters and their parents. Without them, there would be no figure skating competitions to watch. The kids do the work, the parents foot the bills. USFS gets its money from selling the kids' work and taking the parents' donations and fees.

Without some perception of fairness, why would parents allow their kids to compete in ISU/USFS events? It would make no sense--the chosen children, picked for mysterious reasons will go to Olympics, and their kids will be left behind.

The current version has all the fairness of the Emperor Nero's musical contests, which he entered himself, and of course won.

 

[Tonichelle]

maybe instead of looking at it as a race or a homo/hetero standpoint, what about $$? I think it's a little unfair to just immediately go to the deep dark parts of it... maybe Dornbush brings more $$ to the table somehow?

 

[Spun Silver]

No. Once again, they changed the policy. The decision was made under the new policy and to call it unfair is simply inaccurate. It is just as fair to consider multiple results as it is to consider one result, even if that means Nats is not a playoff. Armin did not skate well enough during the past season to earn a Worlds slot. He had one good competition.

Dornbush's personal best score is higher than Armin's, more recent, and happens to be at Worlds: 222.42 in 2011, vs. 211.17 for Armin at 2010 Skate America.

Armin did 10th (out of 10) and 8th on the GP this year (in addition to his 4th at Nats), vs. one 3rd last year, when he also finished 7th at 4CC and 6th at Nats.

Ricky this year placed 4th and 6th on the GP as well as his miserable 13th at Nats. This is hardly stellar, and Nats is atrocious, but the GP performances were certainly stronger than Armin's. (At SA, he placed 6 positions and 20+ points over Armin.) Last year (his first in seniors) he finished 2nd at Nats and 9th at Worlds as well as winning a JGP gold and 4th as well as a JGPF gold.

I don't see the decision between them as an issue of fairness at all unless you are adamant that the old Nats-only policy is the only possible fair policy, which is arguable but by no means a shoo-in. Maybe the debate should be over the policy itself. I don't think you can argue that Armin has a stronger record than Ricky's.

To me personally, Armin at his best is the more interesting skater, but Dornbush is stronger and (IMO) has more potential. They're both worthy and wonderful. Skating is full of disappointments. It's a cruel, heart-breaking sport.

I hope Dornbush will do great at his second Worlds and earn a third spot that a continuously improving Armin will earn next year.

 

[sigrid]

I hope Dornbush will do great at his second Worlds and earn a third spot that a continuously improving Armin will earn next year.

hmmm Dornbush isn't going to Worlds. He isn't even in the alternate's list. The ones who can earn the third spot are Jeremy and Adam

 

[Spun Silver]

hmmm Dornbush isn't going to Worlds. He isn't even in the alternate's list. The ones who can earn the third spot are Jeremy and Adam

Big oops. Thanks for the correction!

Regardless of how many spots or who earns them, I still hope Armin will keep improving and earn lots of international spots next year.

 

[Olympia]

I think he "competed" in the Olympics, too. Won a lot, as I recall reading. Gee, he must have been so athletic....

I see your point, and I wonder whether the federation will feel compelled to explain its choices. Hope so! Transparency would seem to be very important to this process, considering how many people's lives are affected by the outcome.

 

[Serious Business]

Spun Silver, I was a proponent of your theory, but dorispulaski pointed out that if the USFS were acting according to their new 4CC selection guidelines, then neither Alissa Czisny (she was never asked) nor Rachael Flatt would've been passed over for Caroline Zhang as a 4CC member. Both Alissa and Rachael had better results than Zhang in the last two seasons (which the USFS guideline references). In Alissa's case, she has significantly better results than Caroline. There was no way for me to reconcile that with the idea that the USFS was weighing past results in making their selections.

This kind of inconsistency and opacity in team selection is unacceptable. It is worse than inconsistent judging that doesn't follow the rules, because the skater being slighted never even gets to place. The skater is denied any chance to win prize money, prestige, reputation, ranking points and future opportunities. I would be outraged no matter what skater it happened to.

 

[Nadine]

For the record I don't think Dornbush should've been chosen for 4CC, especially seeing as how he finished 13th at Nationals, but "whining & complaining" won't change the decision; 4CC's starts tomorrow.


"Lest we forget at least an over-the-shoulder acknowledgement to the very first radical; from all our legends, mythology and history; the first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom ~ Lucifer". Saul Alinksy "Rules For Radicals".

 

[Mathman]

Sure, they could be lying about Jeremy...

They're not lying. All athletes are hurting from one thing or another all the time. You just can't do that to your body without paying a price.

But if the competition is important enough to you, you will gather all the strength you can muster, suck it up, and play through the pain. If the event is not so important, then, discretion being the better part of valor, you will listen to your body, back off, and live to fight another day.

I think this is what Jeremy did and what, evidently, the USFSA did on Alissa's behalf as well.

My main concern is doing well at Worlds and I don't think it's a long shot to assume that is the goal of the USFSA as well. Prove me wrong!

I don't think you're wrong. Note, though, that you are stating your concern and the federation's concern. Who speaks for the skater's concerns? (Besides Doris )

What I don't like about the whole thing is that we are making the world figure skating championship into a game whose players are the federation heads. The skaters are mere pawns. (Can't Jeremy at least be a bishop? )

 

[Layfan]

Have we heard from Alissa's team about all of this? I know one poster noted a tweet from a friend of Alissa's who said she was disappointed but it didn't seem very reliable.

 

[sweetskates1]

I agree with everything you stated below.

I see what they see. Patrick is not great looking as in handsome, but he is I believe average height for a male =which is tall for a figure skater. Let me be blunt and repeat, Patrick skates with a masculine vibe-clean, wholesome, along with great speed and off the hook skating skills. He is "canadian" in his presentation. North American. He is trained in canada by canadian greats and his skating reflects what is great about the tradition of male skating in Canada. He is also an intl favorite because when he is on, he is peerless except for Dai, who has seen his best days. In the US and Canada, the judges look for the same "styles" of skating and presentation. In Europe, there are very different tastes in the costumes, skating style. Florent Amodio to use a current skater is not how people want to see the top men in Canada-costumes, etc. Joubert had his day. He is not consistent. He is over the hill as far as Fs goes. Why bring him up? Not germaine to the discussion.

I agree with your points.

No. Once again, they changed the policy. The decision was made under the new policy and to call it unfair is simply inaccurate. It is just as fair to consider multiple results as it is to consider one result, even if that means Nats is not a playoff. Armin did not skate well enough during the past season to earn a Worlds slot. He had one good competition.

Dornbush's personal best score is higher than Armin's, more recent, and happens to be at Worlds: 222.42 in 2011, vs. 211.17 for Armin at 2010 Skate America.

Armin did 10th (out of 10) and 8th on the GP this year (in addition to his 4th at Nats), vs. one 3rd last year, when he also finished 7th at 4CC and 6th at Nats.

Ricky this year placed 4th and 6th on the GP as well as his miserable 13th at Nats. This is hardly stellar, and Nats is atrocious, but the GP performances were certainly stronger than Armin's. (At SA, he placed 6 positions and 20+ points over Armin.) Last year (his first in seniors) he finished 2nd at Nats and 9th at Worlds as well as winning a JGP gold and 4th as well as a JGPF gold.

I don't see the decision between them as an issue of fairness at all unless you are adamant that the old Nats-only policy is the only possible fair policy, which is arguable but by no means a shoo-in. Maybe the debate should be over the policy itself. I don't think you can argue that Armin has a stronger record than Ricky's.

To me personally, Armin at his best is the more interesting skater, but Dornbush is stronger and (IMO) has more potential. They're both worthy and wonderful. Skating is full of disappointments. It's a cruel, heart-breaking sport.

I hope Dornbush will do great at his second Worlds and earn a third spot that a continuously improving Armin will earn next year.

I just think that the guidelines for team sports such as football, baseball and basketball do not make as much sense in figure skating. There are so many other elements involved in FS that are unique to the discipline. Results and reputation are so dependent on the single fall or the single victory of one or two individuals that it really makes it quite difficult to only consider National placements.

FS is not just about the athletes or the fans. It is about the pride of the nations that these athletes and fans represent. It is just so tricky. Like I stated earlier, I am just so glad I am not on these committees.

I wish that national federations placed more money, and resources in the hands of the deserving athletes.

I uttertly disagree. That sort of reasoning does not seem sports-minded to me in the least.

It is like saying the New England Patriots should be given the Super Bowl crown without playing for it because the Patriots had a better season and I think they probably will do better in the future.

This is sports-minded only if the sport in mind is chess. IMHO this kind of reasoning puts "the committee" at the forefront and the athletes on the back burner . It promotes a view that figure skating is a "sport" played among national federations as they strategize and one-up each other, rather than as an activity that takes place on a sheet of ice.

 

[Serious Business]

Have we heard from Alissa's team about all of this? I know one poster noted a tweet from a friend of Alissa's who said she was disappointed but it didn't seem very reliable.

It was a tweet from Jeremy Ten, the reigning Canadian bronze medalist who is a known friend of Alissa. And his tweet directly said it was something Alissa told him.

 

[mskater93]

I wish that national federations placed more money, and resources in the hands of the deserving athletes.

And where would this money come from? You think USFS has this treasure chest of cash sitting around like a dragon on its horde? I can tell you, a lot of clubs struggle to meet their financial commitments because of the cost of ice time. USFS does the best it can with the small amount of $ it has.

 

[Spun Silver]

I looked up the mission of the International Committee which is the group which made this decision (p. 61 of the 2011-12 rulebook). The key point is at the beginning:
ICR 2.02 The responsibilities of the International Committee (IC) are:
A. Mission: To select the U.S. Figure Skating Team that wins the maximum number
of international medals and berths possible by strategically providing experience
to qualified members of the U.S. Figure Skating Team, and by identifying and
supporting the best qualified future prospects.

This is what they're about, winning and gaining slots, strategically finding and supporting the skaters who can achieve those goals. Their decisions need to be looked at in light of these goals.

FS is not just about the athletes or the fans. It is about the pride of the nations that these athletes and fans represent. It is just so tricky.

Right. This is a sport aimed at the Olympics, the ultimate festival and contest of nations; Worlds is a smaller skating Olympics. There is an aspect of skating that is a team sport. It's clearly individualistic, too. Tricky indeed, but fairness applies to both team and individual.

Spun Silver, I was a proponent of your theory, but dorispulaski pointed out that if the USFS were acting according to their new 4CC selection guidelines, then neither Alissa Czisny (she was never asked) nor Rachael Flatt would've been passed over for Caroline Zhang as a 4CC member. Both Alissa and Rachael had better results than Zhang in the last two seasons (which the USFS guideline references). In Alissa's case, she has significantly better results than Caroline. There was no way for me to reconcile that with the idea that the USFS was weighing past results in making their selections.

Did you or Doris note the line in the new policy (cited by Jaylee above on p2 or 3 of this thread) where it says, "however, the International Committee may consider extenuating circumstances"? This line provides all the latitude they need to justify any rational decision. Sending Caroline is rational because she's on the upswing, is healthy and in shape, has done well at 4CC in the past; because (I think) they want Alissa to be in her best shape for Worlds; and because as a previous poster said, they (I think) are trying to "spread the wealth," ie to give competitive opportunities to various skaters. This is vital because the US simply has no dominant skaters right now apart from Meryl and Charlie. They are in an "identifying and supporting best prospects" mode, emphasis on identifying.

They're not lying. All athletes are hurting from one thing or another all the time. You just can't do that to your body without paying a price. But if the competition is important enough to you, you will gather all the strength you can muster, suck it up, and play through the pain.

Yeah, and you can do what Rachael did last year. That was fair to Rachael, not so fair to Mirai last year or the possible 3rd-spot skaters this year. It's bigger than one skater.

I don't think you're wrong. Note, though, that you are stating your concern and the federation's concern. Who speaks for the skater's concerns? (Besides Doris )

My concern, of course, but I'm not concerned with the federation per se, I'm concerned (here) with US athletes winning, which is also the concern of the federation. The US Fed is obligated to do its best to win and get slots for future skaters. IMO the idea of fairness is being over-simplified here. Is it fair to the other skaters to send Alissa to 4CC's to wear herself out and risk making her injury worse when a healthy Alissa could win back the 3rd slot at Worlds? Is it fair to Dornbush to associate him with racism, homophobia, and procedural injustice for a decision he had nothing to do with, on the eve of a big competition? Is it fair to pass him over for a skater who has struggled all season until last weekend?

The ISU wants the USFSA to send, or at least to list, their national champions to Four Continents in order to build up the prestige of the event.

That would be great! But then how about they schedule it some time other than a couple weeks after Nats?

This is enough for this topic - I will now leave the discussion to others.

 

[Tonichelle]

I looked up the mission of the International Committee which is the group which made this decision (p. 61 of the 2011-12 rulebook). The key point is at the beginning:
ICR 2.02 The responsibilities of the International Committee (IC) are:
A. Mission: To select the U.S. Figure Skating Team that wins the maximum number
of international medals and berths possible by strategically providing experience
to qualified members of the U.S. Figure Skating Team, and by identifying and
supporting the best qualified future prospects.

This is what they're about, winning and gaining slots, strategically finding and supporting the skaters who can achieve those goals. Their decisions need to be looked at in light of these goals.


Right. This is a sport aimed at the Olympics, the ultimate festival and contest of nations; Worlds is a smaller skating Olympics. There is an aspect of skating that is a team sport. It's clearly individualistic, too. Tricky indeed, but fairness applies to both team and individual.


Did you or Doris note the line in the new policy (cited by Jaylee above on p2 or 3 of this thread) where it says, "however, the International Committee may consider extenuating circumstances"? This line provides all the latitude they need to justify any rational decision. Sending Caroline is rational because she's on the upswing, is healthy and in shape, has done well at 4CC in the past; because (I think) they want Alissa to be in her best shape for Worlds; and because as a previous poster said, they (I think) are trying to "spread the wealth," ie to give competitive opportunities to various skaters. This is vital because the US simply has no dominant skaters right now apart from Meryl and Charlie. They are in an "identifying and supporting best prospects" mode, emphasis on identifying.

Yeah, and you can do what Rachael did last year. That was fair to Rachael, not so fair to Mirai last year or the possible 3rd-spot skaters this year. It's bigger than one skater.


My concern, of course, but I'm not concerned with the federation per se, I'm concerned (here) with US athletes winning, which is also the concern of the federation. The US Fed is obligated to do its best to win and get slots for future skaters. IMO the idea of fairness is being over-simplified here. Is it fair to the other skaters to send Alissa to 4CC's to wear herself out and risk making her injury worse when a healthy Alissa could win back the 3rd slot at Worlds? Is it fair to Dornbush to associate him with racism, homophobia, and procedural injustice for a decision he had nothing to do with, on the eve of a big competition? Is it fair to pass him over for a skater who has struggled all season until last weekend?

That would be great! But then how about they schedule it some time other than a couple weeks after Nats?

This is enough for this topic - I will now leave the discussion to others.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

My concern, of course, but I'm not concerned with the federation per se, I'm concerned (here) with US athletes winning, which is also the concern of the federation. The US Fed is obligated to do its best to win and get slots for future skaters. IMO the idea of fairness is being over-simplified here. Is it fair to the other skaters to send Alissa to 4CC's to wear herself out and risk making her injury worse when a healthy Alissa could win back the 3rd slot at Worlds? Is it fair to Dornbush to associate him with racism, homophobia, and procedural injustice for a decision he had nothing to do with, on the eve of a big competition? Is it fair to pass him over for a skater who has struggled all season until last weekend?

No one is associating Dornbush with racism and homophobia here. Whether he benefits under policies of the USFSA is indeed out of his control. But if he did benefit benefit because of racism or homophobia, it is absolutely fair for the public to discuss the situation. As a said before, reading the new policies I am no longer skeptical of the decision. But to silence discussion on racism simply to be nice to a straight white male who might have benefitted from racism is not fair to those who have been discriminated against either. I know a lot of people in the US get tired of so much focus on racism and homophobia, but the reality is these things do exist. Particularly for me, my views on racism and homophobia have evolved significantly from my childhood and it is frustrating to see these issues dismissed to spare Richard's feelings (which, btw, he should be smart enough to not take this personally).

 

[dorispulaski]

Actually, he should take this personally and go to the sports psychologist Ashley Wagner went (or whatever else it was she did) to learn how not to bomb in the short program.