Duhamel, Radford frustrated by system

[Tolstoj]

Even he wanted it so badly, he should have done a 3-jump combo, and made use of the 2nd half bonus instead of front-loading. And also incorporated better choreography/transitions into his programs instead of just relying on landing the big tricks and calling it a day.

The result is controversial, yes... but he really needs to get over it.

I think he got over it but after that the sports changed and now there is more credit for the quad, so at the end of the day the criticism was legit.

Although, if Nathan Chen ends up beating Hanyu/Fernandez with 5 quads to their 3 quads, I wonder what his reaction would be. It's not like he was advocating for Goebel to win silver in 2002 with his 3 quads (including harder 4S) over him.

I think we're already accepting it: to be honest i would not even surprised to see Nathan Chen winning the gold medal at the Olympics. He has the quads to compete and he's more pushed than Boyang Jin, also US Figure Skating isn't doing so well these days: the Shibs only third at GPF, in ladies they can rely only on Ashley at the moment but it's not the best bet, their pairs aren't competitive enough so they need a new star for 2018 OG.

On the other hand Fernandez is not that consistent, also the difference in the quality of skating from these two is not as massive as let's say Kovtun vs Chan or D/R vs S/K.

 

[andromache]

I think he got over it but after that the sports changed and now there is more credit for the quad, so at the end of the day the criticism was legit.

And I bet after the Olympics this time around the quad throws will become worth more, so at the end of the day we can all agree D/R's criticism is legit :yes:.

Instead of focusing on D/R's throw quad specifically (since people love to hate them and their quad is tbh not aesthetically pleasing), what about Chinese throw quads? Those should be worth, like, 25 points each.

 

[Tolstoj]

And I bet after the Olympics this time around the quad throws will become worth more, so at the end of the day we can all agree D/R's criticism is legit :yes:.

Instead of focusing on D/R's throw quad specifically (since people love to hate them and their quad is tbh not aesthetically pleasing), what about Chinese throw quads? Those should be worth, like, 25 points each.

That criticism is totally legit, i don't get the second part regarding the artistry.

 

[bobbob]

They are complaining that it's not worth enough points for the risk it presents. So their desire to push the sport is conflicting with their desire to win. D/R could easily just do a 3S and call it a day... it's no skin off their backs, and it's less risky. But that's not how it is. The reason they do a SBS 3Z is because it's a valid risk given the 1.6/1.7 extra points from a 3S/3T to a 3Z. But adding a rotation on a throw is way harder than just a few points more than a clean triple.

To reiterate:

Singles: 3S BV = 4.4 points, 4S BV = 10.5 points -- difference of 6.1 points
Pairs: 3STh BV = 4.5 points, 4STh BV = 8.2 points -- difference of 3.7 points

So, not only is the BV of the quad salchow throw worth 2.3 less points than a quad salchow, the BV of the 3S throw is actually worth more, so the gap between a triple and a quad is even less.

D/R aren't asking for preferential treatment - they're not the only team attempting quad throws. They want the sport to be pushed, and so greater incentive needs to be given to doing a quad or 3A.

From what I see it is harder for a lady do a solo quad jump than a throw quad. Since the pairs scoring system is closer to the ladies in terms of point values, we should compare pairs with ladies, not men. The transition from a 3S to 4S seems much harder for ladies than for pairs, in a throw.

I think the base value for 3S vs 4S should be 6.1 if we were talking about SBS 4S only. The base value difference for 4STh vs 3Sth is not that much simply because doing an additional rotation in a throw isn't AS difficult AS doing an additional rotation on your own.

Take Meagan or Sui or whoever...could she do a solo quad sal..no chance! Whereas a singles skater who could do a 4S could do a throw 4S with some basic pairs training.
...Anyways, that isn't the issue why I'm unhappy with them complaining.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think he got over it but after that the sports changed and now there is more credit for the quad, so at the end of the day the criticism was legit.

I think we're already accepting it: to be honest i would not even surprised to see Nathan Chen winning the gold medal at the Olympics. He has the quads to compete and he's more pushed than Boyang Jin, also US Figure Skating isn't doing so well these days: the Shibs only third at GPF, in ladies they can rely only on Ashley at the moment but it's not the best bet, their pairs aren't competitive enough so they need a new star for 2018 OG.

On the other hand Fernandez is not that consistent, also the difference in the quality of skating from these two is not as massive as let's say Kovtun vs Chan or D/R vs S/K.

Yeah, but what's to say Lysacek (who had successfully done quads prior to Vancouver, mind you) wouldn't have accordingly attempted - and successfully landed - quads himself in Vancouver, had they been worth more points at the time?

quality of skating from these two is not as massive as let's say Kovtun vs Chan or D/R vs S/K.

Oh, come on, I know the skating quality of S/K isn't the best ever, but they're not THAT far behind D/R! While they haven't won Worlds twice like D/R, they are still former World/Olympic silver medalists, and just won the Euros 'pewter' medal!

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think the base value for 3S vs 4S should be 6.1 if we were talking about SBS 4S only. The base value difference for 4STh vs 3Sth is not that much simply because doing an additional rotation in a throw isn't AS difficult AS doing an additional rotation on your own.

Take Meagan or Sui or whoever...could she do a solo quad sal..no chance! Whereas a singles skater who could do a 4S could do a throw 4S with some basic pairs training.
...Anyways, that isn't the issue why I'm unhappy with them complaining.

Okay, then why is a throw 3S/2A worth more than a solo 3S/2A?

 

[Meoima]

I agree quads worth not enough in the pair. Quad throws are dangerous, hella dangerous. They should have been rewarded more, but at the same time, jump combo in pair should score less than jump sequence.

 

[bobbob]

Okay, then why is a throw 3S/2A worth more than a solo 3S/2A?

Because I think there is a learning curve for learning how to do a throw, so for example a throw 1S is definitely harder to do than a solo 1S because it does take some pairs training as mentioned to learn how to throw, land, etc from both skaters. But once you can do a throw, it is easier to add rotations than in a SBS jump because their can be momentum from the throw itself plus the person being thrown can rotate. I would say at the triple salcow level probably they are about equal in difficulty but when it gets to quads, like 4S, 4Lz it is certainly easier to do a 4LzTh than a solo quad lutz.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

They are complaining that it's not worth enough points for the risk it presents. So their desire to push the sport is conflicting with their desire to win. D/R could easily just do a 3S and call it a day... it's no skin off their backs, and it's less risky. But that's not how it is. The reason they do a SBS 3Z is because it's a valid risk given the 1.6/1.7 extra points from a 3S/3T to a 3Z. But adding a rotation on a throw is way harder than just a few points more than a clean triple.

To reiterate:

Singles: 3S BV = 4.4 points, 4S BV = 10.5 points -- difference of 6.1 points
Pairs: 3STh BV = 4.5 points, 4STh BV = 8.2 points -- difference of 3.7 points

So, not only is the BV of the quad salchow throw worth 2.3 less points than a quad salchow, the BV of the 3S throw is actually worth more, so the gap between a triple and a quad is even less.

D/R aren't asking for preferential treatment - they're not the only team attempting quad throws. They want the sport to be pushed, and so greater incentive needs to be given to doing a quad or 3A.

I'm merely speculating here, but maybe one of the reasons for the difference is that the throw elements in pairs are much less important than the jumps are in singles. Throws account for 2 elements in the LP, but a wide differential in the BV can mean one harder throw can make up for many other losses in BV. For example, a 3Tw4 is 6.6, while a 3Tw1 is 5.4, so one quad with a high value can make up for a lost of lost levels in the other pairs elements. Maybe devaluing the quad throw encourages a better balance in the execution of all elements.

 

[4everchan]

I'm merely speculating here, but maybe one of the reasons for the difference is that the throw elements in pairs are much less important than the jumps are in singles. Throws account for 2 elements in the LP, but a wide differential in the BV can mean one harder throw can make up for many other losses in BV. For example, a 3Tw4 is 6.6, while a 3Tw1 is 5.4, so one quad with a high value can make up for a lost of lost levels in the other pairs elements. Maybe devaluing the quad throw encourages a better balance in the execution of all elements.

but how then are sbs jumps sane value as in singles??? and lifts worth so much ??? i dislike that a team can medal without sbs jumps or without good throws by getting hish goe on everything else and boosted pcs.... perhaps the isu is seeing throws and jumps the same vs lifts.... (4 elements vs how many lifts 4 with the twist????

 

[Skater Boy]

They are complaining that it's not worth enough points for the risk it presents. So their desire to push the sport is conflicting with their desire to win. D/R could easily just do a 3S and call it a day... it's no skin off their backs, and it's less risky. But that's not how it is. The reason they do a SBS 3Z is because it's a valid risk given the 1.6/1.7 extra points from a 3S/3T to a 3Z. But adding a rotation on a throw is way harder than just a few points more than a clean triple.

To reiterate:

Singles: 3S BV = 4.4 points, 4S BV = 10.5 points -- difference of 6.1 points
Pairs: 3STh BV = 4.5 points, 4STh BV = 8.2 points -- difference of 3.7 points

So, not only is the BV of the quad salchow throw worth 2.3 less points than a quad salchow, the BV of the 3S throw is actually worth more, so the gap between a triple and a quad is even less.

D/R aren't asking for preferential treatment - they're not the only team attempting quad throws. They want the sport to be pushed, and so greater incentive needs to be given to doing a quad or 3A.

They sounds like a contradiction but I don't want skating to continue this quad thrust in men's and pairs but I admit the throw jumps do not get fair credit for the difficulty comparatively.

 

[QuadThrow]

After this stunning competition in Ostrau yesterday D/R are even more in trouble than before.

After a disappointing start pair skating is going to be a real hit at worlds

 

[lappo]

After a disappointing start pair skating is going to be a real hit at worlds

Agree. Plus, we have yet to see what S/H (my sentimental favourite, I have to admit) come with after the injury. There will be serious fight for the 3 top places!

 

[lbamda]

To reiterate:

Singles: 3S BV = 4.4 points, 4S BV = 10.5 points -- difference of 6.1 points
Pairs: 3STh BV = 4.5 points, 4STh BV = 8.2 points -- difference of 3.7 points

The difference is that single skating you push out yourself, and in pair you are pushed out by the partner. This difference in complexity is also reflected in points. Everything is fair. Instead of complaints it is better for Radford to pay more attention to the boring programs, the weak paired relationship and bad choreographic lines.

 

[Jammers]

What has to worry D/R is that they have pushed the envelop as far as they can technically and really can't go any further. If they can't nail their big tricks they are in big trouble.

 

[andromache]

After this stunning competition in Ostrau yesterday D/R are even more in trouble than before.

After a disappointing start pair skating is going to be a real hit at worlds

Maybe, maybe not. This is starting to look a lot like last season, where D/R ended up winning worlds.

D/R are not my favorite pair, and I'm rooting for a few other top pairs to win Worlds instead of D/R, but they can't really be counted out.

Savchenko/Massot and Sui/Han (depending on their programs/what they look like now) are probably the most well-rounded pairs in the world. Technical difficulty, engaging, excellent choreography, high quality of many elements, and great interpretation and chemistry. But neither are especially consistent. Tarasova/Morozov are the biggest threat because, since their first rough outing on the GP series, they have been consistently delivering - and they receive excellent PCS even though their programs are weak. This season, I think they will be able to step in and win if others make mistakes, including D/R.

 

[TGee]

After this stunning competition in Ostrau yesterday D/R are even more in trouble than before.

After a disappointing start pair skating is going to be a real hit at worlds

Totally, agree that we saw some great things yesterday. Especially James/Cipres. But D/R "in trouble" this season is not what is coming to mind....

Even showing greater expression, T/M are still burdened with a dreary program with saccharine music. And there were still tecnical rough points in their FS that a Worlds panel cannot be counted on to ignore. I really like T/M, and hope that they get better music in future, but find it hard to buy the artistry argument for them or the Chinese when the music is so hackneyed.

And I always hesitate to say it because I clearly see things so differently from others, but I absolutely do not get why folks were impressed with S/M. I love Aliona...but still wish she was with Robin. Her light coloured costume was washed out on the ice in the F/S, and Bruno's awkward upper body posture (except when she is over him in a lift) and his two foot skating keep my eyes on him most of the time, and not in a good way. I won't say the expression was forced because they were clearly working very hard to feel it, but at no point did I enter into it. I really found it hard to make myself watch the performance through to the end.

 

[4everchan]

After this stunning competition in Ostrau yesterday D/R are even more in trouble than before.

After a disappointing start pair skating is going to be a real hit at worlds

i don't quite agree with that that D/R are in trouble. Did you see them skate at Nationals? They had a clean SP for 80 points and no,... they don't get PCS inflation at Nationals unlike the series of 10.00 S/M got at Euros...

Their LP had a fall on the 4S... fair enough... Meagan touched down her free foot on the huge 3Lz throw... two mistakes... if there's no fall, they win easily I think.

Looking at the scores, they racked up over 150 in previous WC... why wouldn't they this year??? Are you sure S/M will be able to upgrade their content by worlds?
Are you sure the Europeans will retain the judges favour when Chinese and North American teams also show up?

I agree the top 3 skated well yesterday, IMHO, the French were the top LP pair... but to say that it now makes D/R in trouble is going a bit far...especially considering they are recovering well from their disastrous GPF.

 

[4everchan]

Totally, agree that we saw some great things yesterday. Especially James/Cipres. But D/R "in trouble" this season is not what is coming to mind....

Even showing greater expression, T/M are still burdened with a dreary program with saccharine music. And there were still tecnical rough points in their FS that a Worlds panel cannot be counted on to ignore. I really like T/M, and hope that they get better music in future, but find it hard to buy the artistry argument for them or the Chinese when the music is so hackneyed.

And I always hesitate to say it because I clearly see things so differently from others, but I absolutely do not get why folks were impressed with S/M. I love Aliona...but still wish she was with Robin. Her light coloured costume was washed out on the ice in the F/S, and Bruno's awkward upper body posture (except when she is over him in a lift) and his two foot skating keep my eyes on him most of the time, and not in a good way. I won't say the expression was forced because they were clearly working very hard to feel it, but at no point did I enter into it. I really found it hard to make myself watch the performance through to the end.

yup.....:agree:

People are willing to forget S/M for Massot's really awkward skating, and this after just their second season, while they are still pounding on Meagan for skating skills that she has been improving since 2011... I agree that in 2011... D/R were messy... but every year, they improve... will Meagan ever be Aliona? No... Few can reach that level anyways... but Eric is gorgeous and probably the best out there.... but that doesn't count??? Why????

 

[JustMe]

Totally, agree that we saw some great things yesterday. Especially James/Cipres. But D/R "in trouble" this season is not what is coming to mind....

Even showing greater expression, T/M are still burdened with a dreary program with saccharine music. And there were still tecnical rough points in their FS that a Worlds panel cannot be counted on to ignore. I really like T/M, and hope that they get better music in future, but find it hard to buy the artistry argument for them or the Chinese when the music is so hackneyed.

And I always hesitate to say it because I clearly see things so differently from others, but I absolutely do not get why folks were impressed with S/M. I love Aliona...but still wish she was with Robin. Her light coloured costume was washed out on the ice in the F/S, and Bruno's awkward upper body posture (except when she is over him in a lift) and his two foot skating keep my eyes on him most of the time, and not in a good way. I won't say the expression was forced because they were clearly working very hard to feel it, but at no point did I enter into it. I really found it hard to make myself watch the performance through to the end.

Agreed that D/R are not in any trouble, as they still are one of the favorites. Just like But I do believe that all these teams have demonstrated they great scoring potential , so if someone makes mistakes in their short program, then they will definitely find themselves in trouble.
Regarding T/M, although their music is dated, the program is well constructed and will continue to score internationally well when successfully executed. Why would the judging at worlds any be different than at the GPF or Europeans? I mean, it's not like the judging panel at worlds will all be under 40 years old with a taste for contemporary music, are they?