Feminism and Figure Skating

[CdnSkateWatcher]

When I started work in the 1980's, it was still okay in my office for men to have a bit of a grab and grope with female staff, and for them to patronize and use "cutesy" terms for them. If you complained, your career was done - you were a troublemaker and "one of those feminists". Of my graduating class, in a highly literate and well-off city, I was the only female to go to University - the rest went to secretarial college.

Fast forward to 2011. My highly academic, and tall, skating daughter, has been presented with the following:
a) Go to college. You'll get a job there, and until you're married, you'll need to support yourself.
b) Don't work so hard in school. You're stressing yourself out; do you thinkyou need to see a doctor for your anxiety over school, and maybe some meds?
c) Why are you setting your goals so high?

These all from a school guidance counsellor ... and I've heard teachers giving the same messages to girls (oddly enough, the female teachers too).

As a skater, who has height and - though only a size 4 - curves:
a) You're too tall to skate. Judges like small dainty girls.
b) We don't make skating dresses for girls with curves very often.
c) You look weird out there on the warmup: skaters are supposed to be small and skinny.

So, although we've made progress, there are still stereotypes and messages to overcome.

 

[Scrufflet]

Whew! Did this thread ever strike a nerve! Thank you, thank you DorisP, Olympia and all. This thread should be required reading for males/females in a 9th grade course which goes through to graduation! I'm of your generation, Doris, and some of those things happened to me too. I wish that I'd not bought into so much of that garbage; it pains me to see young girls buy into it. Progress IS so slow; we sure can't take it for granted.

I have an interesting story about an ancestor of mine. I have an old family photo of a Caucasian woman circa 1880 in India, standing with 4 young Indian girls, some dressed in saris, one in English attire. We were puzzled until we found a note from an aunt saying that this was our great-great aunt Rosetta who spent 60 years as a missionary in the Punjab. She would go to the banks of the river and rescue unwanted female babies left there for the crocodiles. If she were here today, I think she would be amazed at the progress in some ways but astounded by the utter sameness in others.

So does this have anything to do with skating? Oh yeah! Every time I see a female skater try to vary from the "ice princess" script, I applaud! Athletic and enjoying her power and strength? More applause! Baby ballerinas and jumping beans evolving? Yay! Best of all, seeing Joannie Rochette, combining the grace, elegance with the power, strength and athleticism to just be a superb woman out there on the ice!

Thank you Doris!

 

[jcoates]

Olympia, a bit of trivia about Title IX...Billie Jean King actually wanted to be a pro baseball player while growing up. Her brother Randy Moffitt was a local star who went on to play with distinction in the Major Leagues. Since no team sport opportunities were available for young girls in the 40s and 50s, even in relatively progressive Long Beach CA, Billie's parents introduced her to tennis. They encouraged her to participate which is pretty remarkable given the staid atmosphere of the time. (BTW, my mom is exactly one day older than Billie and has told me about similar experiences.) Billie has said she always preferred team sports, which is why she values her doubles titles more than her singles ones. It's also why she started World Team Tennis as a sports league.

Lastly, for anyone who is interested on learning more about these issues, please check out the Women's Sports Foundation (incidentally also founded by Billie). They have a long history of honoring and promoting women in all sports and skating greats like Fleming and Kwan have long been supportive of its efforts,

 

[Olympia]

That's so interesting, jcoates. I knew about the pivotal role that Billie Jean played in the development of women's sports, but I didn't realize her strong preference for team sports.

Does anyone remember when she played Bobby Riggs in a match and beat him? There's a wonderful TV movie about it, When Billie Beat Bobby, in which Holly Hunter played King and I think Ron Silver played Riggs. The final scene showed a bunch of college girls in their dorm TV room watching the match, and on the screen little pop-ups told what became of these young women in later life ("became a CEO of..." and so on). The implication is that the progress in sports fed into the general spirit of opening horizons in the larger world.

There's precedent for this: many people feel that when Jackie Robinson broke the color line in baseball in 1947, it was the first great feat of the civil rights movement. Well, think about it. Suddenly Jackie Robinson was coming to people over the radio, and later on TV, in their own homes. The same was true for tennis. People who otherwise would not have been exposed to high achievers who weren't supposed to have that potential were being exposed to the greatest athletes of their time, and surprise! These athletes were black/women/Asian or whatever. And equally as suddenly, people who actually were black/women/Asian or whatever had role models.

Scrufflet, that story is heart-stopping. The saddest thing is that as you say, some matters have not improved since that time. But how admirable of your great-great aunt Rosetta, who got herself over there and lived a life of action on behalf of the girls who were in such danger. Treasure that photo!

And CdnSkateWatcher, good luck to your daughter in whatever she chooses to do. Remind her that she doesn't have to figure it out right away. An avenue may open up for her in a few years that isn't even apparent right now.

 

[seniorita]

I cant contribute anything to the thread but I just wanted to say thank you for all the posts I read, there were many things and situations I did not know and it is still hard to understand why they existed..or still exist

 

[Pepe Nero]

Thanks for your reply, Serious Business--I wish I'd had the presence of mind to write half of what you wrote when I first posted!

I've often wondered what to make of the fact that women's PCS are devalued relative to men's. I know that it's done so that their PCS more closely match their TES. But that got me wondering: why are women's TES lower than men's? The "common sense" explanation is that men do more and more difficult elements. However: Men do more elements because they are allowed to (more jumping passes, longer time limits). And furthermore, I don't think it's obvious that men do objectively "more difficult" elements. Rather, it's that the elements at which average male physiology tends to give men an advantage are simply more heavily weighted in scoring. For example, jumps are, on average, simply worth more than spins (an element where average female physiology seems, in my perception, to give women an advantage.) In other words, there is a bias toward male physiology built into the scoring system. (N.B., I'm not saying that this is intentional, or part of some malicious conspiracy.)

To clarify, and perhaps pre-empt some objections, I don't think what I'm pointing out is an example of some grave injustice, all things considered. (To borrow another poster's phrase, my panties are not now, nor were they ever, in a wad about this.) But I do think it's worthwhile to take note of some ways in which there is gender bias in figure skating.

 

[callalily]

Skate Canada uses the term "women" officially for domestic events - this was changed some time back, I can't remember which year. (At international events in Canada, the term "ladies" is used, to conform with ISU practice.)

I grew up in the 70's and was fortunate to have very forward-thinking parents, in terms of expectations and options for girls. I entered my career in the 80's in a non-traditional but very new field, and luckily encountered little gender discrimination, possibly because most people in the field, even managers, were young at that time. I also was lucky to work for a company that prided itself on diversity and had some women in senior positions who were good mentors. Many of my friends weren't as fortunate.

Fast forward to my kids - they grew up seeing as many female as male doctors, friends' moms who were professionals in various fields and they thought that feminism was passé, old-fashioned, not needed anymore. This seems to be a common view among many of their peers. My kids were shocked to hear about the difficulties their grandmother encountered in simply having a career. We had some interesting conversations about her experiences (not all that long ago, really) which were eye-openers for them.

My kids think the idea of discrimination (eg. in employment, legal rights, career advancement) is absolutely wrong, and that people (regardless of gender, sexuality, ethnic origin, etc. ) should be treated with respect in work and social settings. And they do so. What's interesting, though, is that they and many of their friends have a very jaded view of gender studies courses, since they find them ideologically heavy-handed. I think this is an interesting challenge - these issues are as important as ever, IMO, but discussing them in North America in the 21st century can be very challenging. For many young people, the word feminism itself has taken on negative connotations, although many kids who dislike the word are themselves "feminists", by my definition.

 

[louisa05]

Pepe Nero--I have felt since the beginning of the IJS that there was an effort made to ensure that men's scores would be higher than women's scores at the end of a competition. The women's (or ladies...) event has been the marquee of the Olympic games, etc... for many years. But the system is structured for men to get more points (in the ways you noted) and Cinquanta, from the beginning, has been obsessed with the notion that points records and personal bests, etc...would be an attraction for fans. And the big point totals will always belong to men. Add in the new obsession with quads and the men have another advantage.

As for the more recent prevalence of thinner women in skating. I don't think it has to do with pairs or with cultural preference. I think it has to do with triple jumps. For physiological reasons, very thin and not curvy girls can do more triples and more combos. Their prevalence at the highest levels is nothing more than natural selection created by a system that rewards jumps above all else. Hamill and the other women cited as examples of past champions who were not tiny/thin skated before triples were the status quo.

 

[gkelly]

Men do more elements because they are allowed to (more jumping passes, longer time limits). And furthermore, I don't think it's obvious that men do objectively "more difficult" elements. Rather, it's that the elements at which average male physiology tends to give men an advantage are simply more heavily weighted in scoring. For example, jumps are, on average, simply worth more than spins (an element where average female physiology seems, in my perception, to give women an advantage.) In other words, there is a bias toward male physiology built into the scoring system. (N.B., I'm not saying that this is intentional, or part of some malicious conspiracy.)

Let's say we accept the propositions that
*(fully rotated) triple and quadruple jumps are very difficult and should be rewarded commensurately with their difficulty
*male body types make it easier to perform these jumps than female body types
*some spin positions and gliding positions are easier for female than for male bodies
*most other skating skills are not dependent on body type, with caveats that taller skaters are likely to achieve greater absolute speed or power from each push, shorter skaters are likely to be more agile at reversing direction quickly, etc.
*females tend more than males to be socialized toward cultivating graceful, polished presentation, but there are obviously exceptions on both sides
*the ideal skater of either sex demonstrates both athletic power and refined body line, and can skate to various kinds of music

Do we want rules that
*are designed to apply exactly the same to both sexes, even if that inadvertently gives one sex a natural advantage in terms of maximum average scoring potential?

*are designed to apply exactly the same to both sexes and are intentionally adjusted to balance typical male and typical female strengths so that it would be meaningful and equitable for male and female skaters to compete against each other?

*differ between men's and women's events based on each sex's average maximum abilities in a way that is deliberately designed to result in comparable total scores in the two separate events?

*differ between men's and women's events based on social expectations such that skaters who conform to their respective gender norms are highly rewarded and skaters whose strengths lie in areas typically associated with the opposite sex do not have access to the same rewards?

On the one hand, as mentioned by a few posters in this thread, it's problematic from a feminist perspective if the elements that men tend to do better than women also earn the highest scores, so that the best women's score totals pale in comparison to the best men's, making the women seem less accomplished.

One obvious change to minimize the discrepancy could be to use the program component factors in both disciplines, which would raise the women's PCS totals to be more comparable to the men's and thereby close some of the scoring gap. However, with all else remaining equal, that would mean that a larger percentage of the women's total scores would come from the subjective, artistic portions of the scoring, which would reinforce the idea that women are more judged on artistry and appearance and men more on athletic accomplishment. So that would still be problematic.

Well, how could women's TES could also be increased to be more comparable to the men's and to the higher factored PCS?

Increase the time limit and the maximum number of jumping passes of the women to match that of the men. It was certainly not unheard of for women to do 8 or more jumping passes under 6.0 rules. The current competitors may not be conditioned to pace themselves for 4.5 minutes instead of 4, but it might be worth asking some of them to give it a try. One more jumping pass wouldn't eat up a whole 30 seconds, so that extra time would also give the women more time to show other skating skills -- including some posing or two-foot gliding if needed as rests, but preferably choreographed to enhance the program theme at the same time as allowing the muscles to recover.

The highest scoring level 4 elements are comparable in base value to a solo double axel, which is often the easiest jump in a senior freeskating program. Now, it is true that there are plenty of skaters at lower levels who can achieve level 4 spins (and spiral sequences, when they had levels) but who can't do triple jumps, maybe can't even do double axels. Is that evidence that the hardest possible spin is easier than a triple toe loop? What about the other skaters, at senior junior or novice level, who can do multiple triples but can't do level 4 spins? For them it isn't easier. So maybe the difference in difficulty is not so much absolute as it is dependent on body type (and talent, preference, etc.) and skating has, in the last 20-30-40 years tended more and more to screen out body types that don't lend themselves to triple jumps.

Also, just meeting the minimum requirements to be credited with level 4 may be a lot easier than the hardest possible spins or spirals of the skaters who excel at those elements and challenge themselves to push their own limits. So maybe capping the difficulty/scoring potential of spins and spirals, but not of jumps, is not the fairest approach.

How can skaters who excel at spins or spirals be adequately rewarded commensurate with their area of excellence and the relative difficulty of what they achieve in that area?

Spirals can always be used as connecting moves, and at this point only in senior ladies' long programs are they scoring elements. So a skater, male or female, any level, who excels at spirals can use that skill to increase the Transitions score and possibly other component scores as well. Probably not by as much as a level 4 spiral sequence used to be worth, though.

Limiting the number of spins in a free program to three, with capped difficulty, puts the great spinner/average jumper at a disadvantage against the great jumper/average spinner. Is that the intended effect? If not, how could

One obvious option would be to allow skaters to trade one of the jump passes for an extra spin. This would benefit anyone who can add another level 4 spin but who cannot add another triple jump and need to fill the 8th slot with a double jump, or who are likely to earn higher GOE on the spin than on the jump.

But I wonder if there could be some way to redefine the way difficulty in spins is rewarded so that the very best spinners could get higher base marks as well as higher GOEs for their most complicated spins (and not encourage weaker spinners to try more complexity than they can handle).

I've deliberately left out the step sequence element because it relies on skills that are basic to figure skating and should be demonstrated throughout the whole program as well as in the designated sequence. And it doesn't seem to favor one sex over the other. (In my opinion elite men have shown more interesting and more skilled step sequences than elite women on average, but I attribute that to the fact that they had to do two of them instead of one in each program and didn't have to work on spirals. With similar training incentives, I'd expect similar results.)

 

[Serious Business]

Pepe Nero, I never thought consciously about the fact that elements men are better at also get a higher base score in COP. Is it sexism? Well, it reflects that figure skating is a sport, and sporting competitions base their rankings at least in part on the competitors' physical prowess. And physical prowess, generally (though not in every area) is something men are better at. And for the most part, I am fine with that, as long as female athletes who achieve great feats are recognized for their excellence on their own, which is certainly the case in figure skating.

gkelly, your proposals are very well considered. Although, I don't think there's any particular need to make the scores of men/women comparable. As we see in not just skating, but many other sports, women can break their own records just fine and most people accept that women are competing against each other, not against men (except in the few sports where they do). Just as there is no need to make bring ice dancing and pairs scores in line, too (oy, that would be quite the headache).

However, there are some elements where women generally do better than men physically, and figure skating is a sport that can reward that. For instance, in flexibility. Right now under the COP, flexibility can help a skater's score, but not that much, and even less so compared to a few seasons ago. From what I've seen, the top level male skaters can achieve roughly the same spin levels as female skaters, despite flexibility being a consideration in some level features. If those requirements are heightened, or greater flexibility is further rewarded, many female skaters may be able to get higher scores on their spins than male skaters of the same level. And of course, at the same time, male skaters who are particularly flexible will also have an advantage.

Another thing I'd like to see: bring back spirals with levels! Spirals have been almost eliminated from single skating outside of moves in the field, or the perfunctory choreographed spiral women do in the FS. One of the most iconic elements of skating has been reduced to an afterthought. Well, it should not just be brought back for women, but introduced to men. Instead of the choreographic spiral/choreographic step sequence in the FS, there should be a spiral element, with all the level features of yore. And it should be the same for men and women. Women will likely generally do better on those. But once again, male skaters who are particularly flexible will actually be rewarded for it.

In conclusion, the COP should not be afraid to juice up the points on elements and attributes in skating just because women are better at them traditionally. The men will still have the lion's share of the point getters. But as one of the few sports capable of rewarding areas where women are generally physically superior at, it should.

 

[gkelly]

Just for fun, a few years ago I tried to imagine how men and women could compete against each other on a level playing field. I thought the ladies' short program requirements at the time would work pretty well:

double axel
triple jump out of steps
triple-double or triple-triple jump combination
layback spin
flying spin
combination spin with one change of foot
step sequence
spiral sequence

No quads allowed, so the best jumpers among the men wouldn't have much advantage over the best jumpers among the ladies (except they'd be more likely to do 3A+3T combination). Layback and spiral sequence required; the least flexible men would struggle to get credit at all or to get non-negative GOE for level 1 on those elements; the most flexible could get higher levels with positive GOE but not up to, say, Czisny standards.

 

[Bluebonnet]

As for Ladies' v. Women's... yeah... but I'm more bothered by the negative impacts of feminism on women. And men. We could use more "ladies" in the world these days, IMO.

I agree.:yes:

 

[Tonichelle]

Even in Alaska, things weren't perfect. But yes, in the slightly more uncivilized days, I think things were better there than on the east coast.

In Kodiak, Alaska, where I moved shortly after I married (Mr. Ski joined the USCG because of the draft; it was his preferred form of service, and he was transferred to Kodiak) , in some ways, women had it made because they were a lot fewer of them than the men.

However, women's jobs were mostly limited to fish packing, secretarial, taxi driver, store clerk, waitress, bar girl, and prostitution. On the east coast, there would have been few if any female taxi drivers and female bar tenders. Those were men's jobs there.

My first job in Kodiak was with a construction firm as a secretary. I also did the payroll. It used to bite my butt that the "stake hopper," the teenage boy who held the pole for the surveyor, earned twice as much as I did, and I actually had to know something, whereas he just had to do what he was told. His job was to hold the surveyor's pole for sighting and to pound little stakes into the ground. There was no way I could qualify for that job; it was listed under Job Wanted Men.


When the construction job finished up, I took the civil service test and got a job as a stenographer with the Naval Investigative Service Office. I was refused a job with the Navy film office, because "I was too pretty." That was a shock. I had always been considered rather plain. However, with scarcity, comes lowered standards and (sometimes) increased opportunity.

I was fired from my job in Alaska with the Naval Investigative Service Office because I became pregnant with my younger son. I did not seek medical care until after I was fired, since my medical care would have been through the military. If I had sought medical care, I would have been fired sooner. Furthermore, when they fired you for being pregnant, they didn't hold the job for you for after you had the baby.

And you got to listen to the commanding officer tell you how lucky you were to be fired for being pregnant, and how his wife wasn't pregnant.

So yes, it was better, I think that Alaska was better than the east coast, though still not perfect.

For one thing, secretarial work made enough to pay you to do it. On the east coast, when Ski was mustered out, secretarial work in VT paid so little and required such a high level of dress to be maintained that it didn't pay to work if you had to pay for childcare.

A look at secretarial life in the era from a humorous perspective can be seen in this song from "How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying"



And that, mind you was considered an attractive fantasy.

Women's sports? What women's sports. There were none at my high school.

But you could skate on the pond in the winter; such wonderful, flying freedom!

But, again, we're talking a "naval" town that had more of an outside influence. You didn't see that in the more rural Alaskan areas (not saying Kodiak is not Alaskan - it most certainly is - just saying it had more "influence" and you were working for our *glorious* government in all its infinite wisdom). In most areas there were a lot of business women - not all of whom were in teh business of body selling.

Honestly, I don't see anything degrading in secretarial work. Maybe because I've done that more than I've done anything else save photography (which started out as a male dominated field).

 

[Pepe Nero]

Pepe Nero, I never thought consciously about the fact that elements men are better at also get a higher base score in COP. Is it sexism? Well, it reflects that figure skating is a sport, and sporting competitions base their rankings at least in part on the competitors' physical prowess. And physical prowess, generally (though not in every area) is something men are better at. And for the most part, I am fine with that, as long as female athletes who achieve great feats are recognized for their excellence on their own, which is certainly the case in figure skating.

I doubt that it's objectively true that men excel at physical prowess relative to women. Rather, it seems that way because "physical prowess" tends to be conceived in ways that favor average male physiology. That is what I meant to indicate when I suggested that the fact that jumps get more points than spins reflects a male-bias, thus causing the best women's scores to be about 1/3 lower than the best men's scores.

G. Kelly, I apologize that I can't respond in detail to your extremely thoughtful posts. Very briefly, I'd like to see the scoring system revised in accordance with two goals: (1) that the best women earn scores similar to the best men (and average women earn scores similar to average men); (2) that skaters who do not conform to traditional gender archetypes in presentation are not penalized for doing so.

The first is more easily accomplished, and I would endorse some of your suggestions. I think more points should be given for spins and spirals, that spirals should have levels, and that spirals should be required of men. One problem with achieving (1), which I didn't mention before, is that women's PCS tend to be lower than men's even before factoring. (E.g., an average woman gets 6-6.5 in the various categories, while an average man, by my rough estimates, gets 6.5-7 in each category.) Maybe the top women right now just aren't as good, PCS-wise, as the top men. But I think there is some under-valuing of female accomplishments going on there too.

Accomplishing (2) would require a lot more than tinkering with the CoP. However, one idea is to add a 6th PC, something like "novelty" or "originality." I know that suggestion would need a lot of work, but I don't think it's a hopeless one.

 

[Pepe Nero]

...they thought that feminism was passé, old-fashioned, not needed anymore. This seems to be a common view among many of their peers. My kids were shocked to hear about the difficulties their grandmother encountered in simply having a career. We had some interesting conversations about her experiences (not all that long ago, really) which were eye-openers for them.

My kids think the idea of discrimination (eg. in employment, legal rights, career advancement) is absolutely wrong, and that people (regardless of gender, sexuality, ethnic origin, etc. ) should be treated with respect in work and social settings. And they do so. What's interesting, though, is that they and many of their friends have a very jaded view of gender studies courses, since they find them ideologically heavy-handed. I think this is an interesting challenge - these issues are as important as ever, IMO, but discussing them in North America in the 21st century can be very challenging. For many young people, the word feminism itself has taken on negative connotations, although many kids who dislike the word are themselves "feminists", by my definition.

Indeed -- I struggle daily with this in teaching. It is the single most difficult thing about teaching feminist philosophy in a class of 18-25 year olds.

 

[gkelly]

The first is more easily accomplished, and I would endorse some of your suggestions. I think more points should be given for spins and spirals, that spirals should have levels, and that spirals should be required of men.

I do too. Or rather, I would either require a "field moves" sequence of both sexes that would include moves like spread eagles, Ina Bauers, and shoot-the-duck/hydroblading low moves as well, or else make "spiral sequence" and "field moves sequence (which may include spirals)" two of several options that skaters could choose from in the so-called free program, and add more options as well. (If you search the forum, you'll see I've discussed this many times before)

I guess spiral sequences are gone from the short program now for good -- adding them back and still encouraging interesting skating between the elements would interfere with keeping the short program short. Otherwise it would make sense to require spirals in the short program and let them be just an option in the free program.

For other reasons unrelated to gender equity, it might make sense to use leveled elements in the short program and "choreo" elements in the free. Or, alternatively, to require basic level 1 elements in the short and allow levels in the free. Depends what you want to encourage.

One problem with achieving (1), which I didn't mention before, is that women's PCS tend to be lower than men's even before factoring. (E.g., an average woman gets 6-6.5 in the various categories, while an average man, by my rough estimates, gets 6.5-7 in each category.) Maybe the top women right now just aren't as good, PCS-wise, as the top men. But I think there is some under-valuing of female accomplishments going on there too.

My impression, just my opinion, is that the men are better in those areas on average. Especially, perhaps, at the top levels. And it may have something to do with what I suggested in my previous post: men have to do more step sequences, so they spend more time working on basic skating skills related to turns and steps that also translate into higher scores for Skating Skills and Transitions.

Right now there are several men who seem to be especially interested in playing with edges and turns. (Chan, Abbott, Verner, Takahashi, Kozuka come to mind.) I don't really see that in any of the current women aside from Kostner.

If the Carriage and Clarity of Movement criteria from the Performance/Execution component were separated into their own component, with maybe Extension and Flexibility added as explicit criteria, then I think women would average higher scores on that component. But as the component is now defined, a man (or woman) who does not excel in those areas can make up for it with great charisma and commitment to the performance.

Accomplishing (2) would require a lot more than tinkering with the CoP. However, one idea is to add a 6th PC, something like "novelty" or "originality." I know that suggestion would need a lot of work, but I don't think it's a hopeless one.

Again, I think that currently, and under 6.0 as well going back at least to the 1970s, on average men have shown more novelty and originality than women. I think the culture of figure skating and the way the rules are written would have to change a lot to encourage more women to step outside the tried-and-true artistic styles of beautiful, perky, or sexy.

 

[let`s talk]

I am writing from the U.S., where the most popular sports involve (ostensibly) heterosexual men committing violence on each other.

LOL! How do you know that they are heterosexual? Have you seen the scary brutal pics of Americal footballers, rugby players, professional wrestlers and other "feminine" looking sportguys whose gayness was publicly disclosed? Or vice versa, when some ballet dancers are super straight, and even sometimes become homophobic because they are too often "misunderstood"? The look is not something that you should 100% trust to judge someones' orientation. It's all about attitude, behaviour, talks, etc. .. and even this will be one hell of generalization.
Btw, the wiki page has 10 names of figure-skaters (6 Canadians) who openly spoke about their preferences: Cranston (Can), Curry( Brit), Galindo (US), Hall (Can), McCall (Can), Nepela( Slovakia), Orser (Can), Pockar (Can), Weir (US), Wilson (Can).

My question is: why the heck is it called “Ladies” figure skating? I’m sure there is a historical explanation. But I am looking for a JUSTIFICATION of why the discipline continues to have this name.

I am not sure but didn't the segment was called "women" at some point? Also, no offence my dear, but your approach is a little narrow-minded. Just because they are "men" and "ladies" in English doesn't mean that the same story goes in all languages of all FS Federations-members of ISU. Some non-English speakers already gave you some examples and I will add- in Russian it's just мужчины (men) and женщины (women) for non-junior events. I think that the issue that you brough up in this thread has a little or nothing to do with FS. It's more a linguistical and sociolinguistical issue in the English language.

 

[Olympia]

That's an interesting and important point, let's talk, about the fact that the distinction between "ladies" and "women" is not present in other languages.

I've really enjoyed the chance to talk about women's rights in the world as well as in skating, but paradoxically, I don't have as much problem with ladies' scores being ranked differently from men's in skating. If they were competing together, that would be a different matter--or if their prize money were different! in either direction. As I recall, the discrepancy in prize money was a significant issue in tennis when Billie Jean King began to stand up for equal rights.

For matters of personal preference, of course, I wish that other elements were ranked as high as jumps in terms of points, because I view skating as a totality, not as a jump contest. But whether they change this aspect or not, I'll still love skating.

Gkelly, I'm pondering your statement about men taking more chances with edges, turns, and so forth. I think that statistically, you're right. I don't know why this is, and it's interesting to mull about it. The two ladies' (female? women? riot grrrrl?) skaters who stand out to me in this area have always been Yuka Sato and Katia Gordeyeva. There are a lot of guys, including notably Browning, Yagudin, and Chan. It's worth investigating. This certainly doesn't have anything to do with superior physical strength or anything of that nature. Gordeyeva is rather a weak jumper and has been at least since she began her singles career at the age of 24. Not to argue, but to investigate: why do you think this is? What do any of the rest of you have to say on the matter?

If we make a parallel with dancing in movie musicals, we have several amazing male dancers from the Golden Age, where tap was an integral part of solo dance performing: Astaire and Kelly at the top, Donald O'Connor, Ray Bolger, Bobby Van, and a bunch of others. The women in this field were mainly Ginger Rogers, the titanic Eleanor Powell, and Ann Miller. (The other great women dancers tended to be more balletic and indeed were largely ballet-trained: Cyd Charisse, Leslie Caron, Vera-Ellen might be the top three; interestingly, these are three of the only six women to have danced with both Astaire and Kelly). One other woman stands out, because she began as a dance performer, but she soon left musicals for dramatic acting: Rita Hayworth. She was a great ballroom dancer, though not a particularly standout athletic solo dancer as I recall. Check her out dancing "I'm Old-Fashioned" with Astaire. My point being (besides using this as an excuse to share this wonderful dancing with you all!) that the adventurous quality of deft footwork on the floor or on the ice has been largely unexploited by women, though there are a few shining exceptions.

Discuss!

 

[gkelly]

Gkelly, I'm pondering your statement about men taking more chances with edges, turns, and so forth. I think that statistically, you're right. I don't know why this is, and it's interesting to mull about it. The two ladies' (female? women? riot grrrrl?) skaters who stand out to me in this area have always been Yuka Sato and Katia Gordeyeva. There are a lot of guys, including notably Browning, Yagudin, and Chan. It's worth investigating. This certainly doesn't have anything to do with superior physical strength or anything of that nature. Gordeyeva is rather a weak jumper and has been at least since she began her singles career at the age of 24. Not to argue, but to investigate: why do you think this is? What do any of the rest of you have to say on the matter?

I think there are probably a couple of reasons that add up to this general impression.

*As I mentioned above, since 1989 men have been required to do more step sequences than women so they have more incentive to work on those skills

*Women's artistry has more focused on the overall appearance of the whole body whereas some men who have resisted putting themselves in that position of being "objects of the gaze" have focused on creativity with the bladework instead

*Male competitors tend to be older than female competitors so they've had more years to work on those skills by the time they reach the elite levels

*Similarly, male skaters who do reach the elite levels can do triple jumps comparatively easily, so unless they're working hard to add quads to their repertoire (and triple axels, for some), they need less training time to maintain their jump skills and thus have more time to devote to on-ice skills . . . if they're interested in those areas

*More women have chosen to focus on getting creative with flexibility positions above the blade than on creative uses of the blades themselves

*Even when the women are creative with the blades, the tendency of viewers may be more to focus on women's whole bodies, especially if the TV production team dictating the camera angles, and the commentary, direct our focus that way

Of course, there are always exceptions. Kwan and Slutskaya also come to mind, in different ways. And Krisztina Czako.

 

[gkelly]

I should add, I have seen more female skaters play with edges (and nonstereotypical personas) in pro programs than in eligible competition. I attribute this to
1) many of them weren't even attempting any triple jumps at all, or not as many as they did in competition, and
2) they were older, with more years of skating experience to draw on (and life experience, which allowed them to take more control of their own skating rather than relying on coaches and choreographers to tell them what to do)