Feminism and Figure Skating | Page 8 | Golden Skate

Feminism and Figure Skating

That's a strange logic. If you thanked them for the specific arguments they made, I got it. You thanked them for "daring to be different", hm?:confused: Why daring to be different automatically deserves merits? Will you thank me for "daring to be different" if I say "All Americans are stupid and should go to hell"? A poor argument that is different from others is truly bad, indeed, although a good argument that deviates from the norm is extra admirable. Daring to be different should not always be encouraged. I certainly don't want to see somebody jump naked onto the rink and start shooting at the audience during a competition for the mere sake of "daring to be different".

I don't think you don't understand what Spun Silver meant, skatinginbc. You are arguing for argument sake. It was obvious that conservatives are minority especially on skating forums, and are surrounded and sometimes belittled by liberal posters. It is more daring to be conservatives these days. I am glad that there are still some conservatives dare to make their views known.
 
Here is one fact for you, IP -- in New York City 40 percent of all pregnancies end in abortion -- 60 percent among "non-Hispanic blacks." Forty percent is shocking enough itself, but for the life of me I can't understand why African-Americans are not up in arms about both the total number of lives lost and the disproportionate rate.
http://nyc41percent.com/ (see release on 2010 data)

As for my "dismissive" posts - I'm a bit taken aback by your detailing of my past sins and can't speak to those dialogues. But about my efforts to detach in this thread - the simple truth is that some people are more committed to long political debates online than others. It's more grueling to argue online than in person for many reasons, at least IMO. Remember that as a conservative I'm outnumbered, so to the extent I voice my opinions, I get a lot of criticism and argument. I don't need to win (thank God, since I couldn't) -- I just want to signal that there is a different point of view. Leaving criticisms unanswered doesn't come easily to me (especially since they can get pretty personal) but supposedly it's a sign of maturity....

I hope you can understand, and I'm sorry if I have made these points less than politely here or in the past. I will try to do better.
 
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I don't think you don't understand what Spun Silver meant, skatinginbc. You are arguing for argument sake.
I think you understood what I meant, Bluebonnet. And I hope you are not arguing for argument sake. Daring to speak up an unpopular opinion in itself is not something worthy of acclaim, especially opinions that are colored with preconceived adverse judgment on a group of people (e.g., "All Americans are stupid", "Chinese immigrants are bad"). Take your post for example: "I think that one of the consequences or the "shadow side" of this continuing fighting for feminism is one of the reasons contributed in the rising of homosexuality." You could have conveyed your thoughts in a neutral fashion without "the shadow side", which reflects an adverse judgment on a group of people. I don't mind people giving rationales and then arguing that "Americans are stupid" or "Homosexuality is negative to the society" because in this case I can judge whether such conclusion is logical or not. But you didn't. You threw in that phrase without giving any reason. It served no purpose other than painting a whole group of people in the dark side. It is called "prejudice" rather than constructive debate.

Sorry, being a conservative doesn't give you a special privilege to speak in a prejudiced fashion. Daring to be different doesn't entail legislative and social immunity. All arguments, popular and unpopular alike, are subject to logical scrutiny.
 
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... in New York City 40 percent of all pregnancies end in abortion -- 60 percent among "non-Hispanic blacks." Forty percent is shocking enough itself, but for the life of me I can't understand why African-Americans are not up in arms about both the total number of lives lost and the disproportionate rate.
http://nyc41percent.com/ (see release on 2010 data)

Which is why adequate and effective sex education and access to contraceptives need to be made available to teens and encouraged for adults. Simply pushing abstinence will not get the job done. You might be surprised, but I actually don't favor abortion. Most thoughtful liberals don't. I just will not deny it as a right to women. I prefer to encourage responsible sexual behavior from the beginning as a preventative measure. As a non-Hispanic black, I am well aware of the both the birth and abortion rate issues.

As for being dismissive, my only point is that if someone is going to inject an opinion into a discussion (as you did by broadening the discussion of feminism and its impact in post #7 initially), they should be prepared to defend that position against a contrary point of view. I hold myself to that outlook as well as those I with whom I agree.

Lastly, this running theme in the thread that conservatives are somehow some sort of oppressed minority in this country is curious. Didn't conservatives just enjoy the largest congressional landslide in US history in 2010? Have conservatives not controlled Congress for the better part of the last two decades? Aren't they in a strong position to win back the White House. Have they not controlled the presidency for the majority of the last 40 years? Isn't FOX News the #1 cable news outlet by light years? Don't Republicans control a strong majority of governorships and state legislatures? Didn't Dan Quayle blame Murphy Brown for the LA Riots and the break down of the family. More recently, haven't gays been to blame for high divorce rates among heterosexuals, Hispanics to blame for low wages and loss of certain job opportunities and blacks for draining the government of resources by taking handouts.? It might be comforting to imagine oneself as the victim of some broader conspiracy just because a personal opinion is unpopular. However, I think holding on so fiercely to that perception only undermines any legitimacy your position holds. If you have a contrary point of view, then argue it and do so passionately and make your case, but why retreat into victimhood as a defense mechanism?
 
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Here is one fact for you, IP -- in New York City 40 percent of all pregnancies end in abortion -- 60 percent among "non-Hispanic blacks." Forty percent is shocking enough itself, but for the life of me I can't understand why African-Americans are not up in arms about both the total number of lives lost and the disproportionate rate.
http://nyc41percent.com/ (see release on 2010 data).
I think it's better to cite the original data rather than refer people to a site with an agenda.

When I look at data like that, I wonder why the abortion rate is so high; I'm sure the vast majority of pro-choice people do not want to see such a trend. But I don't want to look at it and condemn the women who made the decision to have an abortion, because I do not know the circumstances behind the data. Instead, I want to consider what can be done at the social, educational, or public health level to change this.

Is it an issue of poverty, of women (and men) who cannot afford to care for another child, or even one child? Would access to cheap (even free) contraceptives help? And what about teenagers - is it a matter of better sex education for teenagers? Many of them are clearly not abstaining. I can tell you that teen pregnancy is essentially a non-issue where I live. Teen mothers are so unusual that such stories often end up in the newspaper (no names, no pictures). And it's not because no teens are having sex. I would guess that it is primarily a matter of access to contraception, and a culture in which teen motherhood is not something to aspire to - because anecdotal evidence, at least, suggests that in some places girls want to be young mothers. And when you have kids when you're still a kid, you've just made life a lot harder for yourself, and a difficult future far more likely. Even so, I would suggest that there need to be programs for teen mothers to ensure that they stay in school, get job training for the future, and be able to support their children.

The point is that instead of getting hung up on numbers, we should understand what causes high abortion rates, and then we can address the real problems and hopefully make it easier for women and teenage girls to avoid unwanted pregnancies in the first place.
 
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The point is that instead of getting hung up on numbers, we should understand what causes high abortion rates, and then we can address the real problems and hopefully make it easier for women and teenage girls to avoid unwanted pregnancies in the first place.

The funny thing is that this has gone back to the basic argument of this thread - the continuing of feminism has lead to many negative aspects of a society which the feminists might not be prepared or wish for in the first place.

Had feminism not gone this far, abstinence would not have been so difficult to achieve. As I've said in one of my previous posts, the aggressiveness of teenage girls these days are astonishing! Thanks to the all equal talks and pushes! Then the girls got themselves in trouble - one of these consequences of the whole following animal instinct is to get themselves pregnant.:rolleye:
 
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The funny thing is that this has gone back to the basic argument of this thread - the continuing of feminism has lead to many negative aspects of a society which the feminists might not be prepared or wish for in the first place.

Had feminism not gone this far, abstinence would not have been so difficult to achieve. As I've said in one of my previous posts, the aggressiveness of teenage girls these days are astonishing! Thanks to the all equal talks and pushes! Then the girls got themselves in trouble - one of these consequences of the whole following animal instinct is to get themselves pregnant.:rolleye:
No, that's your basic argument. I am very happy that in many countries, women are no longer "ruined" if they have sex before marrying, or shamed for embracing their sexuality. I hope this will expand to more cultures; there are still places where women (and sometimes men, too) who don't conform to perceived standards of purity are punished. And I certainly don't think that people should be compelled to marry at 18 so that they can have sex; a person can be ready to have sex but not for the sort of commitment marriage and a family entails. If someone chooses to wait for marriage, I certainly respect that, and understand the reasoning - but such reasoning is not and should not be applicable to everyone. Yay for feminism (among other things) for making it possible for women and men to have more choices regarding their sexuality and its expression.

Oh, and if you think people were uniformly abstaining from premarital and extramarital sex before feminism, some historical reading may be in order.

That is all. I seem to recall having a similar discussion once before, and it wasn't very productive then, either. I would rather not go another round.
 
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Oh, and if you think people were uniformly abstaining from premarital and extramarital sex before feminism, some historical reading may be in order.

I don't need historical reading for this particular reason. It surely wasn't absolutely abstained like any of such large scaled social behavior in any given historical period of time or any given society. At least it wasn't as such broad, openly normalized, and accepted behavior. I wouldn't and have never felt we should punish in certain crude ways. But one cannot deny that the revolution of feminism have some bad consequences as we've seen now in the society. And this is one of them.

That is all. I seem to recall having a similar discussion once before, and it wasn't very productive then, either. I would rather not go another round.

True. Just like I am avoiding in responding to some of the posts in this thread as I'm thinking the product of continuely going into certain route. I post as I feel the amusement of posting, same like the reason you have. I wouldn't be expecting to change anyone's view/views, simply just want to state mine. Thanks to the privilege we get under the freedom of speech!:thumbsup: We have such enjoyable way of ranting.

I actually like this argument. :thumbsup:

Thanks! Finally we have something in agreement.:biggrin:
 
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In terms of the presumed purity of girls and women in the past: one reason that many childless couples today adopt from China or the Ukraine or wherever is that there is a shortage of adoptable white children born in the U.S. This shortage did not exist previously. Those plentiful babies of long ago came from somewhere.

What generally happened was that a girl went away "to stay with her aunt" for a few months and came home to resume her life. The baby was given away for adoption--whether the girl wanted to give it up or not. If you want to put a negative spin on the change from those days, you could say that feminism ruined the domestic adoption industry.

I will agree that there is way too much commodification of sex these days, and that kids are exposed to it way too early and are acting on it way too early. But the factors that have caused that are many, including the rise of television and other forms of mass media, which predate the second wave of feminism. I think both liberals and conservatives would benefit from a change in that trend if we worked on it together. Will we achieve universal abstinence before marriage? I doubt it, because we're dealing with human nature. It didn't happen in the days when everyone was expected to show up at church twice a week. It certainly won't happen in the 21st century.
 
One could blame the commodification of sex more on Hugh Hefner (who Playboy empire, and so-called "Playboy philosophy" of essentially 'whatever floats your boat' preceded the modern rebirth of feminism). You can't commodify sex much more than Hugh did.

In fact, just to make the order of events clear: Gloria Steinem first came clearly into public notice doing an inside expose of the Playboy Bunny clubs.

http://www.gloriasteinem.com/updates/2011/8/22/i-was-a-playboy-bunny.html

A Bunny's Tale, 1963, can be downloaded at the above link.

For reference, contraception was still illegal for married couples in CT when this story was written.

Playboy Magazine was founded in 1953.
 
Will we achieve universal abstinence before marriage? I doubt it, because we're dealing with human nature. It didn't happen in the days when everyone was expected to show up at church twice a week. It certainly won't happen in the 21st century.
I don't think it should be a goal, either. Why should people practice abstinence if they don't wish to? Marriage is a huge commitment, and some people aren't ready for it but want to be sexually active. I don't see a problem with consensual premarital sex (between adults, or sufficiently mature teenagers).

One could blame the commodification of sex more on Hugh Hefner (who Playboy empire, and so-called "Playboy philosophy" of essentially 'whatever floats your boat' preceded the modern rebirth of feminism). You can't commodify sex much more than Hugh did.
I think it's probably fair to say that the commodification of sex began well before Hugh Hefner was even born: there was erotic/pornographic art and literature, and many sex workers, ranging from streetwalkers to those working in brothels to high-end courtesans (here's one famous example). What has probably changed is the visibility of sex, for many reasons. If anything, I suspect that more liberal societal norms regarding sex would lead to a decrease in the number of sex workers relative to the size of the population.
 
I will agree that there is way too much commodification of sex these days, and that kids are exposed to it way too early and are acting on it way too early. But the factors that have caused that are many, including the rise of television and other forms of mass media, which predate the second wave of feminism.

This has linked to the fact that it's generally lack of guidance from parents to children in western society as well. I remember Johnny Weir talked about his first time sexual arousal at age 6 when he was watching movie "Pretty Woman". How could any parents allow a 6-year-old to watch such rated "R", also such a story about a prostitute and a rich man, movie is completely beyond me!!! Many parents simply need to change their selfish attitude about their own entertainment and enjoyment for their lives if they wish to raise families, IMO.
 
Buttercup makes a good point. For much of human history, women (and some men) have turned to work in the sex trades out of desperation. They came from poor backgrounds, lacked sufficient education to develop an adequate trade, were forced into it by family or predators in their communities, were victims of war, were suddenly widows, etc. The social safety nets so often decried these days as "socialism" were virtually non-existent until the last century of so. Until the late 19th or early 20th century, the best level of support a poor, unemployed woman could hope for was possibly a couple of handouts from the church or taking up a space in a work house. Frankly, life as a prostitute was preferable for most poor women to life in a work house, where people literally lived like rats crammed into small rooms, infested with disease, lacking heat, food, privacy and basic sanitation.

Crude as it may sound, but sex has always had an element of commodity to it. The very act of sex is a negotiation between the two parties. Is it a means of bonding, an expression of love and trust, a means of procreation? Yes. But it is also means of survival for many women who have no other options. Historically it has been a means to hold on to a man who acts as provider and protector. Eventually that became monetized. None of this is new. It's as old as civilization itself, if not older.

But back to Buttercup's larger point. There is no shame in our basic sexuality. Humans are sexual beings. We are one of the rare species on earth that appears capable of having sex for pleasure as well as to procreate. It's unreasonable, impractical, presumptuous and downright creepy to assert that it should only occur in one way and under particular preconditions. Not every cultural norm fits with this very western, very Judeo-Christian, very male-centric outlook. Women have exercised their sexual power in very positive ways in non-western cultures where they are free to openly express their desire and to choose their own partner. Male dominated societies have long practiced a double standard where men could be viewed as heroic, morally upstanding citizens while openly practicing sex outside marriage, while women were expected to be chaste, submissive, humble and only receptive to sex at the request of their husbands. Thankfully, we've moved past that sort of limited thinking at least in this country. If there are side effects and consequences to go along with that, so be it. That is true of any significant social change.

Freeing the slaves and granting them citizenship (under the 13th and 14th amendments) in the US removed a significant source of free labor from American southern states and had century long impact on their ability to compete economically with northern ones. It also started the ball rolling for much of the social change experienced domestically by Americans. Still, no one is arguing seriously that we go back to subjecting a significant portion of the populace to unpaid labor to boost economic growth or reverse various changes. Desegregating schools (Brown v. Board of Education), done with the intent of equalizing access to education, had many side effects. The legal arguments made in that case (based around various clauses of the 14th amendment) laid the foundation for other landmark decisions: the aforementioned Griswold v. Connecticut (contraception-due process); Loving v. Virginia (interracial marriage-equal protection); Roe v. Wade (abortion-due process); Lawrence v. Texas (private, consensual sexual contact between same sex adults-due process). Those are all controversial rulings for some segments of the population. Brown also eventually led to black and white children crossing paths in social circles on a more a regular basis in and out of school, listening to each other's music, watching each other's movies, etc. Those children ended up raising their own kids who had a very different outlook on race relations. Those kids are now dating and marrying outside their race in numbers growing faster than ever in this country. Demographically, non-white population groups are outpacing white and are projected to continue doing so for the next 40 years. I'm sure that bothers some people a great deal. Yet no one is seriously arguing that because of those unintended "consequences" we should either not have decided in favor or government mandated desegregation or that we should repeal the 14th amendment or that we established too much equality because those changes may also lead to too much swearing on tv or women in skimpy outfits.

Dislike some of those things all you want, but to argue against progress just because of a few percieved stumbling blocks strikes me as misguided.

ETA: Bluebonnet, I recall reading about prostitutes and women who used their sexuality as a tool as a 6 year old. Their names were Jezebel, Bathsheba, Salome, and (depending on your interpretation of the text) Mary of Bethany/Mary Magdalene. All biblical figures. All mentioned openly in church during readings at Mass. So shameful. How could my mother have allowed such a travesty? :confused: Of course you are entirely right about children never, ever being curious about sex before they hit puberty. They never devise any games they can play to explore what all those funny parts are for. And if they do, they should be told to just go outside and climb a tree or play dress up. :rolleye:

She also let me watch Bambi, Dumbo, Snow White and E.T. around the same age. As I recall, those movies address violent death by firearm, intentional poisoning, divorce, forced servitude, animal cruelty, child abandonment and orphans. Pretty heavy stuff for anyone to deal with. What must she have been thinking? :think:
 
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The parallels of emancipation and school integration are good ones, jcoates. I really like your reasoning about the effects of such changes and how they apply to the changes of the women's movement.

Though I have to say, I side with Bluebonnet about kids being exposed to things like Pretty Woman at that early an age. Reading about Bathsheba isn't exactly the same thing, especially in the King James version. I was plenty elderly before I really understood why David sent Uriah the Hittite into the thick of battle. Seeing Richard Gere snuggle up with Julia Roberts would have had an immediate effect of some sort on me at the age of six, even if it was just anxious confusion. But this just goes to prove that not all liberals or all feminists hold to all the same opinions.

Actually, if people paid more attention to the goals of classic feminism, they'd be less likely to just play around and have kids at fourteen and go nightclubbing all the time. Most feminists wanted to give women the chance to go to college and become CEOs! They encouraged women to become economically independent so they could marry when they found the right guy, not out of economic desperation. They urged women to plan their families not just to make room for a career but to benefit the children, because there would be enough resources (both time and money) to pay attention to each child and nurture him/her as an individual, not just as another mouth to feed. Not that every supporter of women's rights was a bastion of virtue, but these were the main aspirations of most feminists I ever met or read about. There's nothing about such goals that automatically lead to an amoral society of sex maniacs.
 
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Olympia, yes some, perhaps most, kids are not able to process certain information as complex as watching Pretty Woman. Others are endlessly inquisitive and are capable of digesting more complex subjects than the norm. Each child should be treated according to what he or she can handle. I suspect Johnny was that kind of child and judging by how frank and up front his mother is, I suspect she adjusted her parenting his accordingly. I was a similar kind of child. I questioned everything even when it made people uncomfortable. Simple explanations were never enough for me. If you tried to hide something from me, I would seek it out on my own. It was always better to be direct with me rather than to gloss over a subject. I watched the news with my family for pete's sake as a pre-schooler and then discussed it with them. My point is that if every child is different and we should not be holding parents to such limited standards. They know their kids better than we do.
 
If you are having trouble posting in the Politics Forum, including this thread, it's because you have not yet posted 100 posts. We set a limit on post count for Politics during the 2006 primary, when we had a large group of people politically spamming the site who were not interested in skating.

I'm thinking perhaps we should roll back this restriction.
 
I remember Johnny Weir talked about his first time sexual arousal at age 6 when he was watching movie "Pretty Woman".
Did he mention by whom? The actor or the actress? Not that it would change my attitude toward homosexuality, it could serve as one testimony to either the "inborn theory" or the "choice theory" of homosexuality.:biggrin: I'm just curious about the answer.
 
It's interesting to me that many people find the word "lady" to have a positive connotation. When I was young, it had mostly negative connotations, in the area where I lived.

A little lady was the kind of little girl who wore patent leather mary jane's out to play, would play no games but Dolls, House, or School, and when playing House, insisted on being Mother, and when playing School, insisted on being the teacher. Basically, an overdressed prima donna who would not be caught dead climbing a tree.

When I got a little older, it was a "right little lady" meaning the sort of little girl who snottily wanted to order other little girls around.

Ladies were the spouses of Lords, the kind of people we had revolted against in the American Revolution. Sometimes it appeared that our revenge was to devalue their names, as in the phrase "Cleaning Lady", not to mention the above two uses.

The only good use was "a nice lady", generally used of a teacher you liked.

So it was a surprise, when I moved around the country, to discover two things:
Ladies were in higher regard in many areas

There was a mysterious belief that opposed to ladies, there were "trailer trash" and "white trash", usages that were unfamiliar to me. The people using these terms generally though of themselves as Christians. I found the use mysterious, because it presupposed that the God they believed in spent a large block of his efforts manufacturing "Trash", only occasionally being able to rise to the creation of a Lady.

How was it where you grew up?
 
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