Freedom Fries

[mathman444]

Re: To Jules

Jimmy, I vote to change it to <em>le bistro.</em>

SkateCynic, I wish I could believe in the stated motives of U.S. leaders in this war (ridding the world of a dangerous dictator, etc.), but I guess I'm just too cynical.

Mathman

 

[sk8cynic]

Re: To Mathman

:rollin: :rollin: :rollin:

You'd think with my name, I'd be the skeptic!!!

Honestly, it took me a while to reach the position I have about this. Like I said, I don't really care for Bush, but the more research I have done about this, plus my own personal experiences and the experiences of others I have met with helped me arrive at this conclusion.

Jimmy Hoffa,

I have never said that the constitution needs to be amended to eliminate freedom of speech. I have never said that a person's feelings are wrong. I am saying that the overall behavior of the French government - both with Iraq, and with the UN, is abhorrent.

Can you honestly say that Hussein should remain in power, knowing the crimes against humanity and the war crimes he has committed? Should we have let Slobodan Milosovich stay in power? We didn't need UN approval for that action, and most of Europe would agree that that the world is a better place for having him removed from power and brought to justice. Same goes for Hitler. Think of the times action hasn't been taken. Cambodia (Polpot - I have no idea how to spell his name), Stalin (can you deny this man murdered MILLIONS of civilians?).

I guess it's alright for megalomaniacs and despots to commit these atrocities, just as long as it's against that country's own people (please note extreme cynicism and sarcasm ). Problem is, after a while, the leader will inevitably branch out from it's own borders and spread it's governmental terror outward to neighboring countries. At this time, Saddam Hussein has that capability, and he proved in 1991 that he will not hesitate to turn weapons on other countries.

Also, both an old boyfriend and my cousin were in the middle east theatre for Operation Desert Storm - one was part of the ground force that went into Iraq in the first wave, and the other was part of the group that liberated Kuwait/Kuwait City, and they witnessed atrocities and their aftermath firsthand. What they relayed was a chilling, horrifying account of what Hussein did to these people.

In addition, friends of our family were visiting in Israel in 1991 and were there when Hussein launched scud missiles toward Jerusalem and Tel Aviv in response to what the US did. And it doesn't bother you that this man has 8500 liters of nerve gas? Plus thousands of liters of anthrax?

Finally, if you don't think war is the answer, ask a Holocaust survivor. I'd ask my family, but the majority of them were killed in mass executions when Hitler rolled over Poland and Belarus.

So yes, I guess I have some pretty strong opinions. I'm not saying that you have to agree with me; I'm not saying that your opinion is wrong - opinions are simply that - opinions. I just try to support my opinions with fact and experience.

One of the saddest things is that with all of these college protests that are taking place here in th US, more than half of the students protesting couldn't even find Iraq on a map.

 

[sk8cynic]

Back to Our Regularly Scheduled Topic

Back the main point of this thread, I think this whole "Freedom Fries" thing is really stupid.

BTW, does this mean that many Canadians are now Quebecois Freedomites?

Is the butler on Family Affair now called Mr. Freedom?

Did I minor in Freedom in college?

 

[SkatingFantasy]

Freedom fries and oil

Some people I know think that Bush is just going to war to get the oil from over there and using the" going to war to protect the U.S. from terrorits" as an excuse to justify it. I don't know if I believe that but I can't rule it out either. Also I have heard that we HAVE oil but we don't want to USE it, we want to save our and use others?

The whole freedom fries thing is pretty rediculous since they are actually taking the pains to rename them but at the same time continue selling them!

 

[mathman444]

Re: Freedom fries and oil

Hi Sk8Cynic. My problem is that I am just a worrier. The first thing that I am worried about is that we will not be able to oust Saddam without killing a whole lot of people who have no more interest in fighting and warfare than I do. I fear that the Iraqi people, however much they don't like their own government and its leader, will like foreign invaders even less. That's just human nature. As the song from The King and I puts it, when strong nations undertake to protect weak ones, they end up "protecting us out of all we own," even their lives.

I worry that once this round of violence begins we might not be able to contain it. As you mentioned, "Friends of our family were visiting in Israel in 1991 and were there when Hussein launched scud missiles toward Jerusalem and Tel Aviv in response to what the US did." What will Saddam do this time, <em>in response to what the US does?</em> Will Palestinian terrorist organizations take this as an excuse to step up suicide bombings in Israel? Will the theocracy in Iran, seeing its only rival in the Persian gulf destroyed, embark on some kind of adventurist folly? Will Muslim extremists use anti-US popular opinion to stage a coup or a revolution in nuclear-armed Pakistan? Are we devoting so much attention to this pipsqueak dictator that we are letting North Korea plunge full speed ahead with its nuclear program unchecked?

I don't have the answers to any of these questions. I'm just afraid that we are about to find out.

Your friend, Mathman

 

[sk8cynic]

Re: Freedom fries and oil

It's a rough one, Mathman. You bring up some excellent points. The domino effect is no doubt a real possibility. I have a feeling that may be part of why the Bush administration is planning use of such a massive display of firepower. Kind of a message of, "we're not screwing around like we did 12 years ago." I think that's why they have presented all of this about the Roadmap to Middle East Peace.

Thing is that if we turn a blind eye or continue to only say "stop" without meaning it or instead coming across as meaning, "stop, but just stop a little bit", how long before this man has enough to wipe out the population and existence of that whole region of the world, dig his heels in and have serious weapons of mass destruction, threatening to take everyone out if anyone so much as twitches a whisker in Iraq's direction. He'll be holding the whole world hostage at that point. There's no doubt in my mind that this despicable excuse for a human being would do it. He is evil and he needs to be removed from power. I don't care who does it, but diplomacy has failed. The past 12+ years have proven that. Now is the time for swift and immediate action.

 

[Nadya Lyubova]

Re: Freedom fries and oil

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Germany has no moral leg to stand on after their country caused the two largest global wars in history. Germany, of all countries, should understand the gravity of letting a despot like Hussein remain in power. Didn't they learn anything from WWII?[/quote]
Yes, Germany did learn from WWII: We learned a) democracy the way we got it from the Americans and b) You can't start a war based on National interests, presenting fake evidence and using false pretences!

 

[sk8cynic]

Re: Freedom fries and oil

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Yes, Germany did learn from WWII: We learned a) democracy the way we got it from the Americans and b) You can't start a war based on National interests, presenting fake evidence and using false pretences!

Btw, when you talk of "Chirac", you should equally speak of Saddam (not Hussein), even though he is a dictator. It just sounds strange.[/quote]

Please, tell me exactly how the evidence being presented is fake. Show me one piece of evidence that disproves anything that the US has brought before the UN Security Council. Also, are you oblivious to Hussein's track record? Are you implying that Hussein has more credibility and is more trustworthy that Bush? Was learning about democracy from the most successful country in the modern era so damned terrible? If we're so evil, why does everyone and their brother try to emigrate here? If we are so terrible, why do we give more economic aid abroad than any other nation? Why do the majority of other nations turn to the USA when they need help? How often do we say no to our Allies?

....Seems to me France and Germany may be suffering from a serious case of sour grapes. Chiraq thinks he's the next deGaulle, going to deliver his country back to the old glory days of France. Does that include the guillotine?

I also find it interesting and somewhat disheartening (is that the right word? my dictionary is in a moving box right now) that other than saying that the Bush administration is wrong and evil, I have not read a post here with a clear, intelligent, insightful perspective about why we should not go to war. I welcome it, as I always welcome other's opinions. There's usually something to be learned.



Your comparison of the Bush administration to Hitler and the Nazi party is abhorrent and an insult to the Americans that fought in WWII.

As for Chiraq and Hussein, Chiraq is only a couple of steps up on the food chain from Saddam. He, along with Germany, have made it abundantly clear that they neither country is an ally of GB, the US, and Spain.

 

[mike79]

Re: Freedom fries and oil

Hi Sk8cynic

You said:

"He, along with Germany, have made it abundantly clear that they neither country is an ally of GB, the US, and Spain."

Your logic makes no sense here. I appreciate that you feel free to express your opinions, but that comment cannot be backed up. Just because France and Germany don't agree with the others does not take away the fact that they are still allies. Disagreements are bound to come up in politics. It's almost like saying that an American who does not support war is unpatriotic, a saying that is completely ridiculous.

BTW, continue writing about your beliefs on the situation. It's always important to hear both sides of a story. I enjoy reading your potsts.

 

[sk8cynic]

Mike 79

Thank you for pointing out an error on my part......I think I would be more accurate to say that the I am sadly starting to question whether Germany and France are our allies. I cannot help but feel that if the US, GB, and Spain go on and send forces in, that France and Germany are going to be screaming for Bush's head on a plate.

Also, thank you for your support of my continuing to post. I feel I am in a definite political minority here in the skating world. I cannot even go to some of the skating websites due to all the strong anti-American sentiment and America bashing. I'm not saying it is wrong to be anti-war, I am just tired of Americans being referred to as "eville", etc.

....As for disagreements in politics, thank heavens there are disagreements!!!! Thank heaven we are allowed to disagree freely.

 

[Jimmy Hoffa 2]

Re: Mike 79

Anyone hear about the people who have relatives who died in Normandy during WWII demanding to have them dug up so they can rebury them in America and when they were told about France's laws and regulations and the time it would take to dig them up, threw fits all over the place?

How about the guy boycotting his own grandparents because they are originally from France? I bet he'll change his mind when he gets cut out of the will.:lol:

As for "Freedom Fries", check out this cartoon. Everything before "Listen:" basically sums up my opinion. Caution for language.

Freedom Poodle
Freedom Ticklers <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/embarassed.gif ALT="">
Freedom Manicure

 

[Nadya Lyubova]

Re: Mike 79

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Your comparison of the Bush administration to Hitler and the Nazi party is abhorrent and an insult to the Americans that fought in WWII. [/quote]
I didn't say *anything* about the Americans in WWII - they gave us democracy and we're thankful for the help we got from them! What Bush is doing now, is somehting completely different in my opinion (I don't even want to get on about the situation in Israel ).

Why does Bush not concentrate on North Korea now, which is a obviously a bigger threat to the Western world than Iraq? If he considers himself the World police, whey doesn't he help the Palestinians and change his policy in Israel? Why is it Iraq - Iraq is very likely to support Al Qaeda, yes, and they are very likely to have mass destruction weapons. But we all know there is no 100% proof of that, *and* Iraq may be doing terrible things to its own people, but there were no direct threatenings to other countries yet. So why doesn't Bush concentrate on real threats? Maybe because administrating Iraq would be another step for the US to gain power (esp. in regard to Japan and Russia)?

I'll get back about that evidence thing later, I'm in quite a rush at the moment.

Again, I just wanted to clarify, I did not want to compare the WWII Americans to Nazis, God forbid, and neither Bush and what he's doing now.

And one more thing - about this free the Iraqi's sentiment...when Bush will have defeated Saddam - what will happen then? Egypt's president Mubarak recently wondered about this problem in an interview I've read...what kind of government will Iraq get then? Democracy??? I'm quite sure Bush can win the battle and conquer Iraq - but what will happen then? If he wants to install democrcy or anything that comes close to it, he will have a harder time than in Afghanistan, because Afghanistan was once much closer to the West. To install an effective kind of democracy in Iraq, he will have to restructure an Ancient Arabic society....well, good luck with that task, George...

 

[Joesitz]

Re: Mike 79

Sk8cynic - You are very passionate about this. Everyone wants to see Saddam out of Iraq including all the Arab countries but to Kill thousands of people including Americans?
As for the UN, you should not forget if there was no UN there would be no Israel.
As for France. There are governments I personally don't like all over the world, and their are people in those countries, I've never met - so I can't HATE.
As for the wine. Please ship all the French wine you have. I'll gladly take it.

It is interesting to note that the Brits are not in accordance with the present Government. Would you say that the Government is fine but the people are not?

Joe

 

[Nadya Lyubova]

Re: Mike 79

OK, I'm back. What I meant about false evidence is actually what Hans Blix was referring to. I don't know if there were several things he was talking about, but I know he mentioned those satellite pictures presented by the USA, that were supposed to proove that Iraq was producing mass destruction weapons. As we know by know, those pictures don't proove a thing. I have read about other things, too, but I don't remember which media it was.

Just another thing - when you say the Germans haven't learned a thing from WWII, don't you throw us in the same pot with Hitler and the Nazis then? I know that was not your intention, but I just want to show how easily a phrase can be taken the wrong way when it comes to political discussions. I lost several relatives during WWII (and no, not all of them fought for the Germans), and I definitely don't want to be told I haven't learned from WWII.

My mother recently said soemthing about the Americans which made me think...she said the Americans have been involved in so many wars in their history that a war in itself isn't as special for them anymore as it is for other countries. The last war Germany has actively participated in, must have been WWII (not counting the troops were stationing in Afghanistan etc). My grandmother used to tell me what life was like during and after WWII, and my parents now tell me what their life was like (they were born shortly before and after the end of the war). At school every child spends ages watching films about the war, documentaries etc, and in some ways we're still dealing with the consequences (and our bad reputation is just a mild one). When I saw my first film about a Nazi concentration camp, I was in my pre-teens or early teens, and I had nightmares and waking nightmares for days and felt like I was going to throw up whenever I saw someone being killed in that film. Oh, I'm drifting off topic, sorry.

Anyway, whenever the USA are involved in a war, they are fighting on foreign territory, so -I think- many people are not exactly aware of what consequences war means. We're not only talking about evil Saddam Hussein, who has to be defeated, we're going to decide over thousands of innocent lives (and please, I don't want to hear that "no innocent people will be killed" c**p again...we know what happened in Afghanistan). There is no war without innocent people being killed, and not even the US can fight a war without causing damage to Iraq that the next generations will suffer from. This is just one of the reasons why Chirac, Schröder, Putin and others say as long as there is a chance for a peaceful solution, we *have* to do anything we can to prevent war. Iraq is (at least pretending to) comply with the UN, and as long as noone can present obvious evidence that they are not going to do so, we have to work on a peaceful solution.

And by the way, I don't think Chirac is bullying anyone. Chirac is not the only anyway, who openly speaks out against Bush. And is threatening France in case of a French UN Veto not bullying? If you don't vote for whom I want, you're not my friend anymore.....last time I heard something like that was in junior high school. The US are not the only reasonable Nation in this world, and I'm getting sick when Bush says he doesn't need permission from the UN. Who is he to say he doesn't need permission from a superordinate controlling organization? This comment of his did scare me actually. If he ignores the UN and all the different opinions of its countries, well......who is there to control Bush?

 

[Albert Flasher]

To Jules

Regardless of one's position on the war,it is frivilous to change the name of French Fires to Freedom Fries,just because of the French Governemnet's neutralism.Isn't the word RESTAURANT French?

PS:Not every American supports this 'freedom fries' non-issue,so don't lump them all together.

 

[mathman444]

Re: Nadya

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>"Whenever the USA are involved in a war, they are fighting on foreign territory, so -I think- many people are not exactly aware of what consequences war means. We're not only talking about evil Saddam Hussein, who has to be defeated, we're going to decide over thousands of innocent lives.... There is no war without innocent people being killed, and not even the US can fight a war without causing damage to Iraq that the next generations will suffer from. This is just one of the reasons why Chirac, Schröder, Putin and others say as long as there is a chance for a peaceful solution, we *have* to do anything we can to prevent war."[/quote]Nadya, I have said my piece on this difficult issue and I promised myself that I would stop now and go back to skating. But your post was so eloquent I have to applaud.

*applause*

Mathman

 

[Joesitz]

Re: Mike 79

Cheers Nadya = We may disagree on figure skating but we are in accord for PEACE.

You are right about my country getting involved in other countries to ensure capitalism. Money talks in America. Oil, Oil, wonderful Oil. Who cares who dies?

Joe

 

[sk8cynic]

Re: Mike 79

deleted as I posted off the top of my head while angry!!!!

 

[Joesitz]

Re: Mike 79

c'mon cynic - In this thread you can be a war monger and if you offend you will not be zapped. I'm sure there are many posters who want war. Others do not. So let the debate continue and include your public opinion here.

Joe

 

[heyang]

Re: Mike 79

I'm kinda curious about the definition of 'weapons of mass destruction' - exactly who is allowed to have them.

Here in the US, we've just been shown the MOAB (Mother of All Bombs.) It releases kerosene (or some flammable element) into the air and then ignites it. Isn't it a weapon of mass destruction?

I'd be surprised if we (the US) and other countries didn't have knowledge of biological weapons. If we don't know anything about them, how can we determine how to ward them off?

Yes - I understand that we don't want weapons of mass destruction in the hands of a crazed person.

So, what will happen if the US becomes the only nation with weapons of mass destruction? Will we dismantle if everyone says 'hey, why do you need those things, now? Or would we use them to keep everyone in control and wouldn't that make us hypocrits and dictatorial? and who's to say that we won't vote someone crazy enough to use them? (Note: I'm not saying we've done this - just that we are human and therefore could mistakenly do so)