FSU down?

[Lee]

- the "vocabulary" of skating... ie the actual moves that go into the choreography. Is it my ignorance, the bad choreo I've been seeing, or is the vocabulary rather small compared to, say, ballet?

Jumps, spins, 3-turns, mohawks, choctaws, brackets, rockers, twizzles, spirals, spread eagles, chasses, progressives, inside-outside-backwards-forwards edges, toe-picking, veggie-chopping footwork (sorry Elvis), loops, lunges, split jumps, stag jumps, falling leaves...

As fans listening to commentators, we just don't hear all the distinct movements described the same way skaters hear their coaches/choreographers tell them when to do them. But then, I know the vocabulary of skating far better than I know that of ballet. That comes from having a daughter who took lessons while living at home for 14 years, and now skating for myself. She hated ballet, and I've never done it...

 

[Spun Silver]

Thanks, Lee! Veggie-chopping footwork - trying to picture it and it sounds like it would look very bratty! I will have to look at Elvis vids.

 

[Lee]

I can't take credit for the phrase 'veggie-chopping' footwork (that came from someone on skatefans many years ago), but in many ways it was an apt description of some of Elvis's footwork sequences in programs like Kodo Drums; just about any of the programs post-Dragon.

 

[guinevere]

I also like seeing more dance-like choreography in skating - but modern instead of ballet. One of the things I just had to get over when I started following skating seriously was my frustration over the choreography options open to pairs and ice dancers. There is so much potential for great choreography with two skaters! But of course the structure and rules are the core of ice dance, and I get the rules for pairs as well. I do wish that we'd see more innovative choreography in exhibition numbers, though.

 

[KwanFan1212]

Howdy to all the FSU posters visiting GS tonight! I'm glad to see you all here but I can sympathize with the snark withdrawal as I'm having it a bit too. I haven't posted much in there lately but of course when I need to tonight, there's no where to go! Oh well, I'm sure Sharpie and the gang will get things straightened out soon. In the meantime, feel free to post a bit here and chat it up while we wait for the server to get fixed. Thank you to Cyn for the reminder about the rules though too! You beat me to that!! LOL

BTW-This is HeatherC from FSU.....I just go by this username over here. *waves* :agree:

 

[Spun Silver]

Probably I'm wondering about stems from the fact that skating is an arty sport whereas ballet is an athletic art.

I guess skating as a sport can tolerate repetitive, uninventive choreo w/a perhaps (still not sure) relatively small vocabulary because the moves are so hard and fast that few skaters in the world can execute them well at all... The sports concern is, Who executes the moves and combinations best? and by the way, you're also supposed to look nice while you do it. All the glory goes to the individual skater(s); the coaches are seen as instrumental but no one thinks of the skaters as working *for* the coaches.

Whereas w/ballet, the question is, Are they artists, do they offer that synthesis of technique and art that ballet aims for but often misses? Choreography is much more important. Technique is essential and can make a dancer a star but a good ballet dancer will always want to do the best choreography, to try different styles of dancing, and will see himself or herself as serving the choreography and choreographer. Back to vocabulary - since art takes the lead, choreographers are very inventive and the vocabulary is always growing (while keeping a classic core). No need to stick to the same few high-point moves as in COP.

It is interesting though that there is always a tension around this art-athletics synthesis in each field. Technique generates much of the excitement in ballet and skating is always pushing for greater artistry.

About the rules in ice-dancing and pairs (which I don't follow much): do they have to do mainly with executing difficult moves? Do you think there is room in COP for choreo to get better as people get used to it?

 

[guinevere]

Ballet can also be seen as a form with limited vocabulary. Ballet choreography is certain steps linked together , and many ballets follow similar frames. Execution of the technique is critical for a sucessful ballerina, but the difference between a good ballerina and a great one comes from the execution of those steps. A great dancer can elevate mediocre choreography; brilliant choreographers can bring out the best in their performers.

I think this dual dynamic translates well to the skating world - look at how Michelle Kwan flourished under Lori Nichols' choreography, or how Angela Nikodoniv achieved her highest success while working with Elena Tcherkesskaia (sp). OTOH, Sasha Cohen has a certain sparkle to her skating even when the choreography is so-so (Wagner's R&J), as does Alexander Abt or Emmanuel Sandhu.

Re: pairs and ice dance, the choreography is restricted by the forms - both disciplines hold the two-moving-as-one relationship between the skaters as the highest priority. Pairs has a little more freedom for innovative choreography, but skating separately is still not encouraged (I'm sure there are members who could say what the rules say about it).

Under CoP, there is more of an expectation of choreography, but the past season has shown that most skaters are struggling to add in "choreography" (which generally means adding flourishes to existing elements) while achieving all of the required elements. There is of course room of choreography in the exhibitions, but I imagine that most fans will still want to see the jumps and other tricks, rather than something *completely* different.

One skater who I admire for his willingness to experiment with choreography in his pro career is Ilia Kulik. There is also a dance team who I never noticed in the eligible years but I love their pro programs. Of course I don't know their names....I believe they are Russian or former USSR.

 

[Lanie]

I'm glad it's not just me. I am over FSU; been a member for a long time but only recently have I come out of lurkdom (like, pre-Olympics)!

 

[tdnuva]

Is it my ignorance, the bad choreo I've been seeing, or is the vocabulary rather small compared to, say, ballet?

I'd say the vocabulary is growing. But not in most of the choreos we see, I'd indeed call them bad. And there are many skaters who are not able to perform core elements like jumps or spins or lifts PLUS demanding choreography. It takes a lot of work and it seems to me that many skaters spend their times rather on the elements than on the choreo. All imho.

 

[Buzzz]

At least now I know it is not just me. Now where do I go to talk footie! My team lost and sooo bummed! LOL

 

[Soxxy]

FSU is back up.