Getting shorter blades than recommended for 240 Edea boot?

[Ic3Rabbit]

Ic3Rabbit - I'm going to guess that as a coach to elite skaters you probably advocate replacing blades earlier than many recreational skaters with more limited budgets choose to do. That makes sense - it seems like it would be better if serious competitive skaters don't have to waste time making major adjustments to their technique to deal with changes in their equipment. And typical elite level skaters probably have the money to do so (or their families and/or sponsors do) - because reaching & competing at that level usually requires a lot of resources.

But many recreational skaters on a lower budget try to keep using equipment - including blades - longer than the original toepick height makes practical, to save money. Eventually, after some number of sharpenings, the pick - particularly the back (drag) pick - significantly shortens and shifts backwards the usable portion of the spin rocker. A slight trim of the back pick moves the point at which the pick engages partially forwards again. Though of course not to the same position it had when the blade was when new, because toepicks generally project forwards, which means that while you can restore the ankle roll angle at the point the drag pick starts to engage to where it was before, the point of the pick will be further back, and the center of gravity will be a little different at that point, and so on.

I'm not sure why a slightly trimmed drag pick would be less strong (though it is possible the steel at the trimmed tip would be less hard), but recreational level skaters almost never break their blades, at least not if they have bought reasonably good quality blades.

Perhaps the same principle applies to boots - elite skaters with generous budgets are probably frequently advised to replace boots when they soften to the extent of providing significantly less support, or have stretched a bit so they no longer fit quite right. Whereas recreational skaters on a lower budget frequently try to make do with boots longer than that. And they sometimes modify the boots to remain somewhat usable at their level for a somewhat longer time.

Please don't put words in my mouth and what I do for a career. You have no idea nor do others in this thread. Yes, I have and do skate professionally and know the ins and outs of this sport and the equipment having tested and competed in many boots and blades for many years. I also know many a tech from around the world. But do not assume what I do and what I know please. Because I never assumed that a rec skater could afford to do this or that, so again, please don't say that I have. I am only here to help others with my knowledge. I'm not here to presume about others nor argue.

Thank you.

 

[Diana Delafield]

Please don't put words in my mouth and what I do for a career. You have no idea nor do others in this thread. Yes, I have and do skate professionally and know the ins and outs of this sport and the equipment having tested and competed in many boots and blades for many years. I also know many a tech from around the world. But do not assume what I do and what I know please. Because I never assumed that a rec skater could afford to do this or that, so again, please don't say that I have. I am only here to help others with my knowledge. I'm not here to presume about others nor argue.

Thank you.

Ic3Rabbit - I'm going to guess that as a coach to elite skaters you probably advocate replacing blades earlier than many recreational skaters with more limited budgets choose to do. That makes sense - it seems like it would be better if serious competitive skaters don't have to waste time making major adjustments to their technique to deal with changes in their equipment. And typical elite level skaters probably have the money to do so (or their families and/or sponsors do) - because reaching & competing at that level usually requires a lot of resources.

But many recreational skaters on a lower budget try to keep using equipment - including blades - longer than the original toepick height makes practical, to save money. Eventually, after some number of sharpenings, the pick - particularly the back (drag) pick - significantly shortens and shifts backwards the usable portion of the spin rocker. A slight trim of the back pick moves the point at which the pick engages partially forwards again. Though of course not to the same position it had when the blade was when new, because toepicks generally project forwards, which means that while you can restore the ankle roll angle at the point the drag pick starts to engage to where it was before, the point of the pick will be further back, and the center of gravity will be a little different at that point, and so on.

I'm not sure why a slightly trimmed drag pick would be less strong (though it is possible the steel at the trimmed tip would be less hard), but recreational level skaters almost never break their blades, at least not if they have bought reasonably good quality blades.

Perhaps the same principle applies to boots - elite skaters with generous budgets are probably frequently advised to replace boots when they soften to the extent of providing significantly less support, or have stretched a bit so they no longer fit quite right. Whereas recreational skaters on a lower budget frequently try to make do with boots longer than that. And they sometimes modify the boots to remain somewhat usable at their level for a somewhat longer time.

So am I right in interpreting that those of us who worry about the dangers of the sport in which we've been active since early childhood (55 years for me) should not be advising safety safety safety to beginners? That we should be encouraging them to further damage their cheaper equipment in ways that jeopardize their safety as they learn? That worries me.

The elite skaters you describe may or may not have money to burn. I, and my parents before me, scrimp on so many other things so I can have the kind of equipment that has kept me from serious injuries for those 55 years of high-level skating. It's what I choose to spend my limited financial resources on. Some years ago I was close friends with a young man competing at the national level. His family didn't have the money to pay for his skating. From his teens on he was training, going to school and then university, while simultaneously working three part-time jobs as a waiter, convenience store clerk, and night-shift hospital laundry worker. He paid for his club fees, coaching, and custom-made skates himself. After he retired from competition, he worked for years in the chorus of ice shows and eventually learned the trade enough to become a respected certified coach. He drove a used car that was falling apart, and wore thrift-shop clothes, but he treated his boots and blades like they were crown jewels, knowing that his success and safety depended on them. Now he tells even his recreational group-class students: "To be the best you can hope for, use the best equipment you can get, and treat it with the utmost respect."

The lifespan of sports equipment depends on how you use them. Somebody who just putters around a rink at public sessions, with perhaps the occasional lesson, trying gentle little hops instead of real jumps, will have skates that last much longer than someone who spends many hours on the ice working their boots and blades hard. The best boots still break down under repeated strain. The blades are rapidly dulled or damaged and need the best professional sharpening and repairs, and frequent replacing. Like tennis players who break rackets, skiers who break poles, hockey players who wear out their safety gear, break sticks, and have their boots and blades damaged by hard kicks in collisions, and all replace their gear frequently with the best they can buy. Injury-prone sports of any kind need the safest level of equipment, maintained as the designer intended. Attempts to cheat on quality with patchwork alterations result in injuries with the potential to be life-altering.

That's why a few of us here, while maintaining varying levels of privacy about our lives and qualifications in the sport in general, give the advice we do.

 

[Diana Delafield]

Please don't put words in my mouth and what I do for a career. You have no idea nor do others in this thread. Yes, I have and do skate professionally and know the ins and outs of this sport and the equipment having tested and competed in many boots and blades for many years. I also know many a tech from around the world. But do not assume what I do and what I know please. Because I never assumed that a rec skater could afford to do this or that, so again, please don't say that I have. I am only here to help others with my knowledge. I'm not here to presume about others nor argue.

Thank you.

 

[IceM]

Because the toepicks are there for a reason and doing anything to them compromises the integrity and safety of them and the rest of the blade.
It's incredibly dangerous. I have a really hard time believing that said tech (whom I know btw and have had my blades worked on by him) would do this. He may have flattened one out a bit but not shaving them alot or greatly modifying them.

Now, shaving off or trimming hockey blades a bit, yes.

Trimming the master pick a little as the blade gets worn down by sharpening is a standard procedure, and is required for you to access the spin rocker properly, especially on blades that have the spin rocker very forward, like Gold Seals etc. Mike should know all about this. Now, "shaving" the toe pick (the master pick that contacts the ice first) almost completely off by significantly flattening it (to follow the curvature of the blade more) was actually quite common for school figures back in the day, but those were done by professionals with elite skaters very intentionally. Doing so doesn't really affect the integrity of the blade otherwise. And in fact it's very common to see used blades in shops with such ruined toe picks (and I say ruined, because in these cases it's clearly not done intentionally, but these are just blades that have gone through what I call "hockey" sharpening at some point).

Generally speaking, I agree that people for the most part are better off not doing significant modifications to their blades, unless they or their tech knows what they're doing. You can do figures in freestyle blades just fine, although if there are some elite figures skaters here, perhaps they can comment on whether they still shave their picks for better tracings

pro skaters sure have someone on their team.

You could talk to some people to find out who these people are, and you could probably use them too. With limited access to good techs, honestly the easiest win is to learn how to mount your blades yourself. It's not difficult, and you'll get proper alignment for you, because you can actually adjust the temp mounting on the ice, put more screws in, and you're done (this is how mounting and adjustments are done properly).

There is actually a newer skate tech which I've never been to, maybe I'll try it out, he does manual sharpening with Blademaster machines.

Automatic sharpeners should be avoided, so this sounds promising. A decent sharpener should be able to sharpen both blades just fine. Figure skates just take more time and precision, which is why some not so decent hockey sharpeners mess them up. I wish you very good luck!

 

[Query]

I appreciate that you folks are sharing the knowledge you have gained through many years of skating at elite levels.

I wasn't suggesting removing the toe pick, not even the drag pick portion, though I know some skaters and techs have done that. I was suggesting slightly trimming the drag pick, carefully maintaining as close as possible to the ideal-for-the-individual angles and sharpness. I don't believe that is dangerous or that it would compromise the integrity and safety of the toe pick or the rest of the blade.

My main goal, when I've done it to my own blades, is to restore the toe pick's function to as close as possible to what it would have been at the beginning. If I leave that pick (minus the small amount of natural wear) at its original length while removing steel to repeatedly sharpen the rest of the blade, that makes the blade more dangerous, in that I could easily trip over the drag pick. And it makes it much harder to spin and do turns and the minimal jumps I can do, because if I don't trim (and resharpen it), I eventually lose access to all or most of the spin rocker. The toe pick also gradually becomes less sharp with wear, which I also sometimes try to correct.

I use hand tools (such as cylindrical cross section sharpening stones) on my own blades that most skate shops don't have, and I work slowly, with as much control and care as I can. Because I was unable to find appropriate training or training materials, I was self taught, and made mistakes along the way. And of course some of what I do is specific to me - e.g., I only have the flexibility to use the drag (back) pick and the king (front) pick. Plus, I'm not by any means an elite level skater.

Most skate techs don't have the training or tools to do these things, and sometimes don't have the training to do even routine sharpening well, and they are frequently asked to spend less than a minute per blade. They may not understand the roles of the toepick. It makes sense to tell them to stay away from the toepick, because without that training, practice and knowledge, they might make things worse rather than better. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't ever be done, by someone who knows what they want to achieve, and who has appropriate tools and practice.

Most of the people I've known who work in the trades are proud of their abilities and skills. If they had the training, knowledge, tools, practice and time, I think many skate techs could do these things well (as well as do a better job at routine sharpening), and would want to. It would help if figure (and for that matter, hockey) skate blade manufacturers provided detailed specs and training materials, or if someone else did.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Trimming the master pick a little as the blade gets worn down by sharpening is a standard procedure, and is required for you to access the spin rocker properly, especially on blades that have the spin rocker very forward, like Gold Seals etc.

This is what I was talking about, this is common and is done to all blades. What I was saying is bad is those who totally let the tech shave the toepick off or completely modify the thing, or a sharpener isn't used to doing figure skate blades and totally wrecks the toepicks.

 

[Sterc]

With limited access to good techs, honestly the easiest win is to learn how to mount your blades yourself. It's not difficult, and you'll get proper alignment for you, because you can actually adjust the temp mounting on the ice, put more screws in, and you're done (this is how mounting and adjustments are done properly).

To be honest, this idea has already crossed my mind, simply because there isn’t really a skate tech within a reasonable distance (I still travel hours to our current ones) whom I would feel comfortable trusting with the job. I’ve been doing a lot of research about skate servicing lately, and I see that quite a few people actually manage to mount their blades themselves successfully.

Recently we had to add a screw to one of my skates because my dad noticed that another one had become loose. My dad used to be a mechanical engineer, and he has a very good sense for precision and working with very small tolerances. At first I was a bit nervous about letting him do it, but after doing enough research it became clear how Edea boots should be drilled and what to pay attention to during the screwing process. In the end it went very smoothly, and when I compared it afterwards with the originally installed screws, the one my dad installed was actually the only one that was perfectly perpendicular. Soo that is again possibly a sign of a poor work done by the original skate tech who mounted my blades.

After this experience, the idea of doing the mounting myself doesn’t seem impossible anymore. However, there are two things that worry me:

1. The drilling part itself seems managable, but before that the blade has to be aligned ofc. I’ve gone through almost every resource I could find about blade alignment, but it’s still not completely clear to me how you determine the initial placement of the blade. I understand that by using only the temporary holes first, you can shift it horizontally afterwards if necessary, but what is the exact method when you’re aiming for a centered mount for example? Is it simply a matter of making sure the heel plate points toward the center of the heel and the top of the toe plate lines up with the top front of the sole, or are there other parameters that should also be considered? I’ve heard that boots are not always identical, so you can’t rely entirely on those reference points either, and that technicians often start by positioning the blade "by eye" and focusing on the center of the boot.

2. While researching this topic, I also came across the issue that the blade can accidentally become bent/warped sideways during mounting. Actually, one of the skaters in my group had their blades mounted with a bend, and it was done by one of our skate tech (they corrected it later though). This is probably what worries me the most, because this seems hard to correct and I haven’t really found a clear explanation of exactly how that kind of mistake happens. I do know that it’s recommended to follow a certain order when tightening the screws, and of course if you want to adjust the blade sideways you need to loosen them properly first. Another thing I’ve read/heard is that MK/Wilson blades can be somewhat more sensitive to this kind of sideways distortion (and those are the type of blades I need to get mounted).

If you’ve ever been brave enough to mount your own blades, would you mind sharing how you managed these aspects of the process or what method you followed?