Good for you, ISU

[Isk]

Thank you for a flashback!
Figure skating has never been covered this way in Latvia, so it was very interesting for me to discover how it worked and that this is the same format that is today used for talent shows. actually.
It also reminded me how much the entertainment has changed. How many talent shows and reality shows were there in the eighties and early nineties? And how many were there at 2000? So, maybe figure skating had to become a sport, have IJS, and live on IOC money from then on because the ratings had fallen already and it could not compete with more successful talent shows?
In either case there is some material to think about

I watched a documentary about judging scandals, I don't remember what it was called, but it came out a few years ago. It analyzed the 2002 scandal. From this documentary, I got an impression that ISU pushed the blame onto the French judge, but the reasons that led her to forging the marks, the pressure that she experienced and what went behind the scenes was not exposed, and culpable people were not punished. Instead the ISU came up with IJS and anonymous judging. I had a feeling that Jamie Sale and David Pelletier, the victims of the 2002 situation, didn't get a closure. It's great to get the gold, but it would be much nicer if the wrongdoing were exposed and corrected. Initially, when the French judge confessed about biased judging, Skate Canada initiated an investigation, but as soon as the second set of gold medals was awarded, Skate Canada was satisfied and withdrew. The main benefactors of the situation were Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze, partly thanks to Tamara Moskvina. She insisted that they go to the repeat victory ceremony. The media took this favourably, and they took advantage of the hype, the two golden couples doing commercials and performing in shows together, and they all made a lot of money. Berezhnaya was the only person in the documentary looking completely at peace. The main losers of the situation were Anisina and Peizerat, in whose favour the deal was apparently made. Maybe they didn't make it, didn't themselves pressure the judge, but after the scandal they were shunned and couldn't monetize on their olympic win.

I remember my reaction to IJS: it used to be a set of marks, where you understood that 4.0-5.0 was = thanks for coming, >5 was not bad, keep trying, 5.5-5.8 was pretty good (depending on the situation), and 5.9-6.0 was a likely win. With IJS it was some 2 or 3 digit numbers with 2 digits after a decimal point, so five significant digits instead of two, and no benchmark: what number is good? It was a few years before I worked through the rule-book, because tables of base values and abbreviations like FCCoSp4 or SiSt3 is not what an aesthetically oriented viewer is looking for in figure skating. At some point I noticed it became more interesting for me to look through the protocols than to watch the actual skating. I'd come home in the evening, download a protocol of a comp, look through it and think: OK, all clear, I don't need to watch. I fast-forwarded step sequences, because as difficult as rockers and counters are, they do not look as interesting as some simple steps done with speed, spectacular split jumps, or Sasha-spirals. What I like about IJS is that it gives some idea of score dynamics for a skater, measurable scoring goals.

I think there were many contributing factors for figure skating popularity decline pre-IJS: among them economic difficulties, scandals, exodus of some popular skaters to pros, opening of Eastern Europe and ensuing travel and migration opportunities, development in telecommunication and advancement of internet where you could do other things, e.g. chat on-line with other figure skating supporters.

 

[Anna K.]

I watched a documentary about judging scandals, I don't remember what it was called, but it came out a few years ago. It analyzed the 2002 scandal. From this documentary, I got an impression that ISU pushed the blame onto the French judge, but the reasons that led her to forging the marks, the pressure that she experienced and what went behind the scenes was not exposed, and culpable people were not punished. Instead the ISU came up with IJS and anonymous judging. I had a feeling that Jamie Sale and David Pelletier, the victims of the 2002 situation, didn't get a closure. It's great to get the gold, but it would be much nicer if the wrongdoing were exposed and corrected. Initially, when the French judge confessed about biased judging, Skate Canada initiated an investigation, but as soon as the second set of gold medals was awarded, Skate Canada was satisfied and withdrew. The main benefactors of the situation were Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze, partly thanks to Tamara Moskvina. She insisted that they go to the repeat victory ceremony. The media took this favourably, and they took advantage of the hype, the two golden couples doing commercials and performing in shows together, and they all made a lot of money. Berezhnaya was the only person in the documentary looking completely at peace. The main losers of the situation were Anisina and Peizerat, in whose favour the deal was apparently made. Maybe they didn't make it, didn't themselves pressure the judge, but after the scandal they were shunned and couldn't monetize on their olympic win.

I remember my reaction to IJS: it used to be a set of marks, where you understood that 4.0-5.0 was = thanks for coming, >5 was not bad, keep trying, 5.5-5.8 was pretty good (depending on the situation), and 5.9-6.0 was a likely win. With IJS it was some 2 or 3 digit numbers with 2 digits after a decimal point, so five significant digits instead of two, and no benchmark: what number is good? It was a few years before I worked through the rule-book, because tables of base values and abbreviations like FCCoSp4 or SiSt3 is not what an aesthetically oriented viewer is looking for in figure skating. At some point I noticed it became more interesting for me to look through the protocols than to watch the actual skating. I'd come home in the evening, download a protocol of a comp, look through it and think: OK, all clear, I don't need to watch. I fast-forwarded step sequences, because as difficult as rockers and counters are, they do not look as interesting as some simple steps done with speed, spectacular split jumps, or Sasha-spirals. What I like about IJS is that it gives some idea of score dynamics for a skater, measurable scoring goals.

I think there were many contributing factors for figure skating popularity decline pre-IJS: among them economic difficulties, scandals, exodus of some popular skaters, opening of Eastern Europe and ensuing travel and migration opportunities, development in telecommunication and advancement of internet where you could do other things, e.g. chat on-line with other figure skating supporters.

There are/were many factors indeed. But for now, I'd say that IJS is intrinsic
To watch something as a sport, you need to understand what the point of the game is. What the athlete A needs to do to beat the athlete B? Will he/she make it? Same goes for A's personal records: will he/she reach a new personal best?
Under IJS, the game is clear: skaters gather points doing what they do. Is the stuff that they do entertaining? Well... It's more entertaining than what the tennis players or marathon runners do imo But I admit that the brutal truth is: it doesn't really need to be.

I understand that this is hard to accept in the U.S. where general public still remembers the era when figure skating was entertaining. It was hard to accept for me, too, for a long time because show business has a special place in my heart and I can't help seeing the show potential of what the skaters do. But I do not necessarily demand that this potential is realized in the competitive skating. It can be realized when skaters do shows. The sport is like a university where skaters learn skills and build characters. Then, the most talented move on to make shows and that's fine for me.

So, I actually see the same thing that you see: the monotony levels in the modern competitive skating are atrocious. Programs are like students' papers and I fall asleep a lot when I look them through. But I'm fine with students' papers as long as I can hope for talented graduates

 

[TallyT]

Under IJS, the game is clear: skaters gather points doing what they do. Is the stuff that they do entertaining? Well... It's more entertaining than what the tennis players or marathon runners do imo

What can be perplexing is that other sports are seen as intrinsically entertaining - for their fans if definitely not for me - just for the 'higher stronger faster' aspect. Sprinting, swimming etc, there's no variety or artistry or whatever and no one really expects them. But the idea of going back to figures, or having competitions that are nothing but jumpjumpjump is so unappealing, I guess because we all know how magical the combination of athletics and art can be (sadly, I think it will become rarer because the technical demands of jumping are getting so extreme as to push everything else out)

But I admit that the brutal truth is: it doesn't really need to be.

Agreed. It may be devolving into something else, more commonplace, more just another sport. And that may even end up being okay with officialdom and future fans... or it may decline into a sport with the international significance of shinty.

s. The sport is like a university where skaters learn skills and build characters. Then, the most talented move on to make shows and that's fine for me.

Though if the entertainment factor of the sport changes to exclude everything that actually makes for shows... we may end up with none of those either. And everyone will have to become a coach.

So, I actually see the same thing that you see: the monotony levels in the modern competitive skating are atrocious. Programs are like students' papers and I fall asleep a lot when I look them through. But I'm fine with students' papers as long as I can hope for talented graduates

 

[Anna K.]

Though if the entertainment factor of the sport changes to exclude everything that actually makes for shows... we may end up with none of those either. And everyone will have to become a coach.

Why would it exclude everything that actually makes for shows?
These are applicable skills and a great motivation to choose this sport above other sports. If less people will be motivated to do a sport, then less coaches will be needed. Who wants that?

 

[TallyT]

Why would it exclude everything that actually makes for shows?
These are applicable skills and a great motivation to choose this sport above other sports. If less people will be motivated to do a sport, then less coaches will be needed. Who wants that?

As you said, the current monotony levels which are actually fine for the majority of sports (in my opinion, and I do admit that telling my AFL-loving rellies that their sport is as dull as ditchwater got me into serious trouble some years back) and may actually be fine for the stripped back techiseverythingartistryisnothing vision some fans seem to want to see. But will people pay to watch it without the competition aspect to give it some ooomph especially as fewer people are doing so with that competition aspect?

 

[Anna K.]

But will people pay to watch it without the competition aspect to give it some ooomph especially as fewer people are doing so with that competition aspect?

What do you mean by "ooomph"? People pay to watch shows [or, to learn arts] because that's what they want: the entertainment, the art, the experience. What "ooomph" and why?

 

[Isk]

There are/were many factors indeed. But for now, I'd say that IJS is intrinsic
To watch something as a sport, you need to understand what the point of the game is. What the athlete A needs to do to beat the athlete B? Will he/she make it? Same goes for A's personal records: will he/she reach a new personal best?
Under IJS, the game is clear: skaters gather points doing what they do. Is the stuff that they do entertaining? Well... It's more entertaining than what the tennis players or marathon runners do imo But I admit that the brutal truth is: it doesn't really need to be.

I understand that this is hard to accept in the U.S. where general public still remembers the era when figure skating was entertaining. It was hard to accept for me, too, for a long time because show business has a special place in my heart and I can't help seeing the show potential of what the skaters do. But I do not necessarily demand that this potential is realized in the competitive skating. It can be realized when skaters do shows. The sport is like a university where skaters learn skills and build characters. Then, the most talented move on to make shows and that's fine for me.

So, I actually see the same thing that you see: the monotony levels in the modern competitive skating are atrocious. Programs are like students' papers and I fall asleep a lot when I look them through. But I'm fine with students' papers as long as I can hope for talented graduates

Most other sporting events last 1-2 hours. A figure skating event lasts 3-4 days full-time. If they last that long, they'd better be entertaining.
School figures were not fun, yet rockers, counters, brackets and loops now take up 30-40 seconds of every senior program.
I'd say, shows have become something I don't watch anymore. Maybe it's just me getting older , but to be entertaining, a show needs a concept, creativity, good music, good choreo and skaters with show potential. It's like theatre, requires a lot of the same skills.

 

[Anna K.]

A figure skating event lasts 3-4 days full-time.

You will be surprised how many sports events last way longer than that. A figure skating competition is a brief episode when compared to Tour de France and btw Tour de France is wildly popular with the public.

a show needs a concept, creativity, good music, good choreo and skaters with show potential. It's like theatre, requires a lot of the same skills.

There is a handful of modern day ice shows that have all that and more; and, when I say "a show", I actually mean these. I suggest that you look into the Ice Shows and Theatre Events subforum. There you can find show descriptions and sometimes, links to YouTube videos (I even posted there some myself )

 

[Diana Delafield]

You will be surprised how many sports events last way longer than that. A figure skating competition is a brief episode when compared to Tour de France and btw Tour de France is wildly popular with the public.

One cricket match can last up to five days. There have been riots with injuries and fatalities when rabid fans objected to umpiring decisions.

 

[Mathman]

How long does Winbleton take? Two weeks? (At least it used to be that before the word "fortnight" became archaic. )

Anyway, to me the entertainment appeal of sports is all about competition, the thrill off victory, the agony of defeat, root root root for the home team. It's a high compliment to a football team or a basketball team to say that they "won ugly."

The danger to figure skating, IMHO, is that it seems headed down the same road -- which, I fear, will lead to its gradual disappearance as either sport or entertainment.

 

[alyssamarie]

Can we read it online?

Figure Skating Project

Get started with Beautiful.ai today.

www.beautiful.ai

 

[TallyT]

One cricket match can last up to five days. There have been riots with injuries and fatalities when rabid fans objected to umpiring decisions.

My dad was a major cricket fan, and therefore I saw waaaaay too much of it when young, I still remember one commentator saying after five hours of what I later learned was called stonewalling "the score is now... nought for nought, really thrilling day's play here..."

 

[Isk]

You will be surprised how many sports events last way longer than that. A figure skating competition is a brief episode when compared to Tour de France and btw Tour de France is wildly popular with the public.


There is a handful of modern day ice shows that have all that and more; and, when I say "a show", I actually mean these. I suggest that you look into the Ice Shows and Theatre Events subforum. There you can find show descriptions and sometimes, links to YouTube videos (I even posted there some myself )

Thanks very much for directing me to the Shows and Theatre Events. Yeah, the Hyoen shows... I didn't know they still produced them, but apparently they do. The 2017 was a disappointment... For the 2019, I was hopeful, the idea was great, they cast a couple of European skaters, but implementation - not sure. I didn't like that they turned it into a drama. The novel is not really dramatic. Also there was not much skating. There was some good acting, particularly from Akiko Suzuki, but it was sporadic. I guess it doesn't help to not know Japanese actors, but the point of a good show that you shouldn't need to. Also, I am not sure why they give evil parts with almost no skating to Shizuka Arakawa, she is such a capable show skater. It had a bit of a flavour of Daisuke benefice.

Here is an example of what I mean by an ice show with a concept: http://youtube.com/watch?v=nEvMYXbfgeU
This is Cinderella from a UK company starring Dorothy Hamill. I didn't even recognize her, but I didn't need to. Maybe it is not the best show in the world but there is a lot of sentimental feelings in the comments. People saw it as kids in the 1990s, and they still remember it 30 years later. Dorothy won the Olympics in 1976, long before these kids were even born, they didn't need to have seen her compete. There is a narrator in the TV version, a pretty good one, but you only hear him between the numbers. You need no one talking and not much decorations because everything is more or less expressed by the choreography. The music has been composed for the production and it is used very effectively to create the mood. There is a bit of acting here and there, costumes, entourage, but it is mostly skating.

For comparison, here are a couple of clips from Evgeny Pluschenko's recent Cinderella production starring Alexandra Trusova with husband Makar Ignatov, Pluschenko himself, Emmanuel Sandhu (he is still a strong skater and performer) and a number of other people:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwNlfMmSNQs, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo2OARG98-A&list=PL4qAzxBA16v5JScVUtAK8S9KtLZwFW2Gt
Somebody is constantly talking and and it's really annoying. Take away the voice-overs and I am not sure how much will remain. There are a lot of such shows nowadays, they sort of have a concept, but...

 

[TallyT]

Here is an example of what I mean by an ice show with a concept: http://youtube.com/watch?v=nEvMYXbfgeU
This is Cinderella from a UK company starring Dorothy Hamill. I didn't even recognize her, but I didn't need to. Maybe it is not the best show in the world but there is a lot of sentimental feelings in the comments. .

Thanks for the link, I watched a bit - it is charmingly old-fashioned in a good way - and I'm planning to save it. I am with you on the Plushenko shows though.

I do think that with the rise in presentation expectations through the latest Japanese shows, Disney on Ice and even (though it's not skating) Cirque du Soleil, it's much harder to do 'no one talking and not much decorations'.

 

[Anna K.]

Thanks very much for directing me to the Shows and Theatre Events. Yeah, the Hyoen shows... I didn't know they still produced them, but apparently they do. The 2017 was a disappointment... For the 2019, I was hopeful, the idea was great, they cast a couple of European skaters, but implementation - not sure. I didn't like that they turned it into a drama. The novel is not really dramatic. Also there was not much skating. There was some good acting, particularly from Akiko Suzuki, but it was sporadic. I guess it doesn't help to not know Japanese actors, but the point of a good show that you shouldn't need to. Also, I am not sure why they give evil parts with almost no skating to Shizuka Arakawa, she is such a capable show skater. It had a bit of a flavour of Daisuke benefice.

Here is an example of what I mean by an ice show with a concept: http://youtube.com/watch?v=nEvMYXbfgeU
This is Cinderella from a UK company starring Dorothy Hamill. I didn't even recognize her, but I didn't need to. Maybe it is not the best show in the world but there is a lot of sentimental feelings in the comments. People saw it as kids in the 1990s, and they still remember it 30 years later. Dorothy won the Olympics in 1976, long before these kids were even born, they didn't need to have seen her compete. There is a narrator in the TV version, a pretty good one, but you only hear him between the numbers. You need no one talking and not much decorations because everything is more or less expressed by the choreography. The music has been composed for the production and it is used very effectively to create the mood. There is a bit of acting here and there, costumes, entourage, but it is mostly skating.

For comparison, here are a couple of clips from Evgeny Pluschenko's recent Cinderella production starring Alexandra Trusova with husband Makar Ignatov, Pluschenko himself, Emmanuel Sandhu (he is still a strong skater and performer) and a number of other people:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwNlfMmSNQs, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo2OARG98-A&list=PL4qAzxBA16v5JScVUtAK8S9KtLZwFW2Gt
Somebody is constantly talking and and it's really annoying. Take away the voice-overs and I am not sure how much will remain. There are a lot of such shows nowadays, they sort of have a concept, but...

I feel truly happy that you liked the subforum about ice shows! Actually, I felt so happy that I started there a new thread about old shows (I mentioned you there and also posted the link to Cinderella). Can I hope that you will contribute to it?

I can but agree about Pluschenko's version. I think that the popularity of figure skating in Russia and and his own popularity has served him badly because spectators flock to watch his shows even if the production is below par.

In Japan tough, the competition is harsh and the producers of ice shows need to improve and experiment. Hyoen is my favorite series for the same reason which disappointed you: it's a genre fusion by concept. But, even if you don't like this concept, you can easily notice how much the production has improved between 2017 and, let's say, 2024. (I'm not sure about how much of the latest shows can be found on YouTube though; @synesthesia maybe you could start a thread about Hyoen 2022 and 2024 on YouTube if you have saved some playlists?) What is interesting for me in this series and also in Cirque du Soleil ice shows is how the use of ice allows to interpret the movement and the flow between the segments of the show and, accordingly, what new possibilities it opens for storytelling.
And, regarding Hyoen, I think your criticism is noteworthy because it lists the reasons why figure skating fans outside of Japan may shun these shows and hence I would happily to see your comments in the respective threads of the show subforum where we can discuss the newest productions.

I do think that with the rise in presentation expectations through the latest Japanese shows, Disney on Ice and even (though it's not skating) Cirque du Soleil, it's much harder to do 'no one talking and not much decorations'.

Kassuoya is a show with no talking, skating only, and no decorations at all actually - just lights to create atmo and some choreographically incorporated props here and there. The funny thing is that, by concept it does not have any narrative or story; it's just the flow of emotions that is expressed via choreography. But, since this flow of emotions remains organic, the result does feel like a story when you watch it

 

[TallyT]

Kassuoya is a show with no talking, skating only, and no decorations at all actually - just lights to create atmo and some choreographically incorporated props here and there. The funny thing is that, by concept it does not have any narrative or story; it's just the flow of emotions that is expressed via choreography. But, since this flow of emotions remains organic, the result does feel like a story when you watch it

I'll take your word for it, I haven't seen it and was talking more generally Though to be fair, lighting these days is very much decoration and highly sophisticated (even when it seems simple)

And we seem to have gotten completely off topic so I won't go on...

 

[Anna K.]

And we seem to have gotten completely off topic so I won't go on...

Oh, we did indeed Everybody interested in the subject, come to discuss it in the respective threads of the Ice Shows and Theatre Events subforum, it will be fun!

 

[Anna K.]

Anyway, to me the entertainment appeal of sports is all about competition [...] The danger to figure skating, IMHO, is that it seems headed down the same road -- which, I fear, will lead to its gradual disappearance as either sport or entertainment.

I am not that pessimistic. Like I said, figure skating is a trade which is applicable in both sport and art and I don't see that this might realistically change.
However, the influence between (sport and art) is not settled; it goes through different stages of development that depends on various factors within and outside skating. You see, the rules may reward with points "creativity" or "originality" but the rules can't guarantee that this "originality" will make sense. It may end up as bizarre moves that make no sense at all and we have already seen plenty of this. To showcase something, to make sense, we need a knob turned in skaters' heads away from counting points and towards showcasing their trade. Right now, there is no rule that prohibits variety or prohibits having 7 jumping passes in the last minute of program. It's skaters choice to stick to the standard that will give them the best points. If the knob will turn in skaters' heads and they will start thinking: "Good points are fine but getting noticed and picked for a good show contract is much better" - then we will see way different programs. But for this, the show contract landscape needs to change to provide that the best contracts go to the most talented entertainers.
In Japan, the development goes this way because they have such abundance of medalists that they can choose the best entertainers to headline their shows. And we can already see the influence on competitive programs here and there, i.e. Mayuko Oka's "peacock" short program:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Knowing how warhorse Japanese junior women programs tend to be, I'd say that the fact that this program outscored Mao Shimada's short gives me some hope for brighter (in terms or memorable programs) future.

 

[TontoK]

I'm always fascinated with discussions of competitions vs shows.

I'm not interested in shows, and almost never watch a gala. I think they're boring, even from skaters I really enjoy. I need the tension of competition. That's where the drama is for me. Rare exceptions - Michelle Kwan's Fields of Gold and Max Naumov's tribute to his parents. Those exhibitions had their own very specific sense of drama and emotion. But to just watch skaters clown for the crowd or be generically lovely in flowing dresses and shirts (or bear costumes)? No, not for me.

And yet, I suppose I can understand people who enjoy exhibition skating more. They can enjoy it without worrying about results. Different strokes.

 

[Anna K.]

But to just watch skaters clown for the crowd or be generically lovely in flowing dresses and shirts (or bear costumes)?

I don't know if you did it on purpose but you just summed up in one sentence all that is wrong with exhibitions.

Like I said above, for me the ultimate goal is the ice show: a real show that explores the visual and storytelling potential of the ice arena and skaters' skills in order to provide a haunting story, whichever the genre might be: love, adventure, drama, comedy, tragedy, dramedy etc. That's why Crystal by Cirque du Soleil stands much higher on my list than any exhibition-type figure skating show whose only purpose is to show off medalists. In fact, I keep skipping exhibitions. On my list, these are to watch in the last place if ever. Why? You just said it.

If the show content of contemporary figure skating remains on this level, then yes. The competition drama is a plus that makes it more watchable regardless of how skeptical I am regarding the overall watchability of competitive skating.