The idea of qualifying competitionsis a very good one. However,who gets to choose who goes and who stays home?Past experience with a large regional competition showed the same Section favourites chosen to attend when in actual fact several highly competent skaters who had placed well at Nationals were repeatedly left at home. To attend such competitions takes some funding,and too often control of the funding has a conflict of interest over who receives it whether by involved parents or coaches who are "pushing" specific skaters. I remember one instance of a skater placing in the upper level of Nationals repeatedly being passed over for skaters who couldn't come close to getting out of the qualifiers. In another instance a similarly qualified skater was the only national competitor not to be picked from her province for an important national competition.Not every skater has parents who can pay for the travel and coaching expenses for a lot of outside competitions,but I think it will be necessary for careful monitoring and taking the choice of skaters to attend the above mentioned competitions out of the hands of individual section bodies.
Grand Prix Season Preview: Canadian women rebuilding
- Thread starter Violet Bliss
- Start date
Simoncat, I guess I should have made that part clearer. The qualifying competitions are open to anyone eligable in that group. Nobody gets assigned to certain qualifying competitions, thus taking the politics out of it. These qualifying competitions are designated between the local sections involved in that particluar region - probably one per section. For example, in the west there are 4 sections. Each section would host a qualifying event open to anyone in the 4 sections who want to try and qualify for Regionals. So skaters would have to compete in a minimum of two qualifiers to accumulate points. They could do all 4 if they wish, but only top two count toward regionals, thus giving skaters the opportunity to clear a "bad skate" result.
So for example, the four competitions could be BC Summerskate, Wild Rose, Saskskate, and Prairie Skate. So all skaters from those four sections can compete in those competitions, but only their two best results count.
Not trying to be difficult, but for kids to be an elite skater, they cannot depend on "local" competitions for their development. The majority of these kids make it past sectionals and then have difficulties at Challenge. The competitive stream is just that, competitive.
So for example, the four competitions could be BC Summerskate, Wild Rose, Saskskate, and Prairie Skate. So all skaters from those four sections can compete in those competitions, but only their two best results count.
Not trying to be difficult, but for kids to be an elite skater, they cannot depend on "local" competitions for their development. The majority of these kids make it past sectionals and then have difficulties at Challenge. The competitive stream is just that, competitive.
I think that hohoho's idea is great.
The other thing it would do is force these qualifying competitions to have event finals in all the ladies events. Currently it is not uncommon for the pre-novice ladies to be separated into 7 groups at a summer or fall competition with no event final. That means the best skaters never face each other. This has to change as the best skaters must face each other constantly in order to push each other.
This is a problem as most of our talented skaters get most of their competitive experience competing against super weak fields ( a lot of times in a junior ladies competition most of the ladies don't even look like they could land a double axel and/or any triple ).
The other thing it would do is force these qualifying competitions to have event finals in all the ladies events. Currently it is not uncommon for the pre-novice ladies to be separated into 7 groups at a summer or fall competition with no event final. That means the best skaters never face each other. This has to change as the best skaters must face each other constantly in order to push each other.
This is a problem as most of our talented skaters get most of their competitive experience competing against super weak fields ( a lot of times in a junior ladies competition most of the ladies don't even look like they could land a double axel and/or any triple ).
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2005
I find it interesting to read of Canada's issues with developing skaters. In the US, it seems everyone in the Region goes to certain competitions if they think they are going to be competitive at that level to figure out how to improve their programs to garner enough points to move on. At Regionals, Regional and higher judges from multiple Regions are on every panel. This seems to stop any potential biases. It seems as if the coaches try hard to develop their skaters to outdo each other technically. It used to be, you were seeing triple attempts at Juvenile before it was capped at 2A by USFS.
Changes have happened this year in the US where a Juvenile skater can be up to the age of 14 in the US. This was to encourage the 12-14 year olds to stay in the sport and not have to endure the stigma of skating "Open Juvenile". In addition, this is the last year of Junior Nationals (Juv + Int). Next season, Juvs and Intermediates will go on to Sectionals and then to "real" Nationals.
The biggest groups at our Regionals tend to be Interminable, I mean, Intermediate Ladies. In my Region this year there are 108 Intermediate Ladies. So glad my club (or state council) is not hosting this year as we did a couple years ago when there were 93 Intermediate Ladies. It tends to be a very competitive group at the top with 2A and 1-3 triples being the norm at the largest 3-4 Regions and the top 4 at Junior Nationals tend to come out of the larger Regions.
Changes have happened this year in the US where a Juvenile skater can be up to the age of 14 in the US. This was to encourage the 12-14 year olds to stay in the sport and not have to endure the stigma of skating "Open Juvenile". In addition, this is the last year of Junior Nationals (Juv + Int). Next season, Juvs and Intermediates will go on to Sectionals and then to "real" Nationals.
The biggest groups at our Regionals tend to be Interminable, I mean, Intermediate Ladies. In my Region this year there are 108 Intermediate Ladies. So glad my club (or state council) is not hosting this year as we did a couple years ago when there were 93 Intermediate Ladies. It tends to be a very competitive group at the top with 2A and 1-3 triples being the norm at the largest 3-4 Regions and the top 4 at Junior Nationals tend to come out of the larger Regions.
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2003
I think the single biggest reason for the lack of success of Canadian women is the lack of competition. That may sound odd given that you could take your daughter to a different skating competition every weekend of the year in Ontario, but when she got there, your daughter would skate in a flight of 8 – 12 girls at her level and if she wins her flight she gets a gold medal and goes home.
The ONLY time girls face all of the top girls at her level would be at Sectionals. Even at Subsectionals, she would only have to place well in her flight to move one to Sectionals where, at long last, she would be up against all of the top girls at her level. In contrast, there are so few boys, Pairs and Dance teams, that the other three disciplines only ever have one flight so these groups are always facing the best skaters at their level every time they step on the ice. They don’t even have Subsectionals, and go straight to Sectionals. At the senior level, if you can land a 3T and a 3SA, you can win your flight, so the girls aren’t challenged technically, until they get to international competition.
For a while in the late 1990’s and the early years after the turn of the century, all of the biggest comps had finals for the girls and those years produced a slew of girls with all of their triples and a gutsy go-for-it attitude: Added to the increased competition locally, these girls competed in the North American Challenge Series for Novice and Junior skaters. Joannie Rochette, Cynthia Phaneuf, Meagan Duhamel (now skating pairs), Mira Leung, Signe Ronka (retired due to injury), Lauren Wilson (retired) were all products of that more competitive environment. I remember in 1999 all of the final medalists in Pre-Juvenile at Thornhill Summer Skate landed 2A’S. Signe Ronka was landed 3S’s consistently as a Juvenile. I’m still mourning her loss to injury. She was probably the most talented of the bunch and she always found a way to make it to the podium.
NAC’s were done away with due to fiscal constraints but nothing did more to level the playing field between Canadian and US Women and I was heart broken when they were discontinued. In the earliest years of NAC’s, the US girls swept the podium, but after a fairly short period of time, Canadian girls started winning the medals. It should be no surprise to learn that Joannie Rochette was the first Canadian girl to win an NAC event. Cynthia Phaneuf was the second.
Last but certainly not least, talented girls don’t get ooohed and aaahed over the way boys are. A talented boy is seen as a jewel. A talented girl – well there are lots of them. The boys are treated like they’re special. The girls, not so much. I’ve seen it over and over.
Until Canadian girls get the same level of competition, starting at the earliest levels, they are never going to be motivated to up the ante. They’ll skate to the level they need to win, which works fine as long as they are only trying to win their flight, but they get killed when they go out internationally. This season, Thornhill Summer Skate started doing finals again, but it's the only event in Canada that does. Every competition at every level needs finals for the girls. The girls must go up against the best in their levels to have any hope of being competitive internationally. It's only 5 more flights of skaters per event. How difficult can that be?
There are no women in seniors or no women in juniors who have the potential to win at the senior elite level. I'm told there are some bright spots in Novice but I haven't seen them yet. I am completely discouraged at this point.
The ONLY time girls face all of the top girls at her level would be at Sectionals. Even at Subsectionals, she would only have to place well in her flight to move one to Sectionals where, at long last, she would be up against all of the top girls at her level. In contrast, there are so few boys, Pairs and Dance teams, that the other three disciplines only ever have one flight so these groups are always facing the best skaters at their level every time they step on the ice. They don’t even have Subsectionals, and go straight to Sectionals. At the senior level, if you can land a 3T and a 3SA, you can win your flight, so the girls aren’t challenged technically, until they get to international competition.
For a while in the late 1990’s and the early years after the turn of the century, all of the biggest comps had finals for the girls and those years produced a slew of girls with all of their triples and a gutsy go-for-it attitude: Added to the increased competition locally, these girls competed in the North American Challenge Series for Novice and Junior skaters. Joannie Rochette, Cynthia Phaneuf, Meagan Duhamel (now skating pairs), Mira Leung, Signe Ronka (retired due to injury), Lauren Wilson (retired) were all products of that more competitive environment. I remember in 1999 all of the final medalists in Pre-Juvenile at Thornhill Summer Skate landed 2A’S. Signe Ronka was landed 3S’s consistently as a Juvenile. I’m still mourning her loss to injury. She was probably the most talented of the bunch and she always found a way to make it to the podium.
NAC’s were done away with due to fiscal constraints but nothing did more to level the playing field between Canadian and US Women and I was heart broken when they were discontinued. In the earliest years of NAC’s, the US girls swept the podium, but after a fairly short period of time, Canadian girls started winning the medals. It should be no surprise to learn that Joannie Rochette was the first Canadian girl to win an NAC event. Cynthia Phaneuf was the second.
Last but certainly not least, talented girls don’t get ooohed and aaahed over the way boys are. A talented boy is seen as a jewel. A talented girl – well there are lots of them. The boys are treated like they’re special. The girls, not so much. I’ve seen it over and over.
Until Canadian girls get the same level of competition, starting at the earliest levels, they are never going to be motivated to up the ante. They’ll skate to the level they need to win, which works fine as long as they are only trying to win their flight, but they get killed when they go out internationally. This season, Thornhill Summer Skate started doing finals again, but it's the only event in Canada that does. Every competition at every level needs finals for the girls. The girls must go up against the best in their levels to have any hope of being competitive internationally. It's only 5 more flights of skaters per event. How difficult can that be?
There are no women in seniors or no women in juniors who have the potential to win at the senior elite level. I'm told there are some bright spots in Novice but I haven't seen them yet. I am completely discouraged at this point.
Yes, the cancellation of NACS events were a hit to Canadian ladies. Too bad that does not still exist. But once again that is only one competition that SC used to hand pick the skater, same as JGP events. Very Political.
As for the Senior and Junior ladies not having the capability to compete at the elite level. I think there are areas that may be successful. If you look att he senior group, there are alot of junior age eligable skaters moving this year and the majority will "knock-off" the past senior group (Roxanne Rheault, Veronica Mallet, Kitty Qian, Kaetlyn Osmond, Cambria Little, . But for these kids to succeed internationally, SC has to push for these skaters to do some comps in the US and use the international developmental comps to get these kids experience. This year, only 3 ladies got international experience on the JGP circuit. If Najarro didn't have a poor outing, there would have been only 2. Not good enough.
SC has to develop its talent and not play politics. It is time to get serious and tough with the ladies.
As for the Senior and Junior ladies not having the capability to compete at the elite level. I think there are areas that may be successful. If you look att he senior group, there are alot of junior age eligable skaters moving this year and the majority will "knock-off" the past senior group (Roxanne Rheault, Veronica Mallet, Kitty Qian, Kaetlyn Osmond, Cambria Little, . But for these kids to succeed internationally, SC has to push for these skaters to do some comps in the US and use the international developmental comps to get these kids experience. This year, only 3 ladies got international experience on the JGP circuit. If Najarro didn't have a poor outing, there would have been only 2. Not good enough.
SC has to develop its talent and not play politics. It is time to get serious and tough with the ladies.
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2005
For those who are close to the border, Ann Arbor Spring Invitational, Skate Detroit, Skate St. Paul, Minneapolis FSC competition, and Lake Placid Summer Competition (not just the Dance one, but the FS competition they host) tend to have big groups every year and a FR at levels that warrant it (Juv-Novice or Junior, usually). I've seen a number of names crop up at these competitions with Canadian skating clubs attached.
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2003
I think Skate Canada does a very good job developing talent in Men's, Pairs and Dance. I don't see politics as an issue in the development.
The girls don't need anyone to get serious or get tough with them. They just need the same competitive opportunities that the rest of the skaters have - go against the best at their level at every competition, starting at the Pre-Juvenile level.
As for your suggestion that the country be split into 3 Sections, bad idea. The geographical distances are too large. For younger skaters and their parents, the costs of additional travel, hotels, and coach's travel expenses would be onerous. The sections are fine as they are.
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- Joined
- Aug 23, 2003
By the time the girls get to junior, the ship has sailed. They need to be competing on a regular basis against the best skaters at their level from the moment they first start competing, not when they're within sniffing distance of being sent out internationally. By the time the skaters are at a level where travel to the US for competitions is a realistic goal, they've already had 5 or 6 years of winning their flight.
Dragonlady. Totally agree
IMO , the lack of event finals in our domestic competitions in general ( Thornhill from pre-novice to junior excepted ) has been the biggest problem.
The ladies you mentioned all were used to event finals all the time.
We got rid of event finals before we stopped the NAC events. When the event finals were removed, the results of our ladies suffered as well. We ended up hogging the last places often over 30 points below the worst American.
The problem is that Skate Canada thought that there was no need for event finals to make decisions about international assignments when the new judging system came into place. When there are no event finals, our most talented skaters have no incentive to improve in super weak fields ( they often can sleepwalk their way to winning their group ). Also competition against weak fields is poor preparation against international competition. It is no wonder our ladies are overwhelmed when they go there
Only the Central Ontario section realizes Skate Canada's error to some degree and brought it back somewhat at Thornhill a couple years ago ( still don't have it for pre-juveniles and juveniles who need it the most IMO ). And Central Ontario has not implemented finals for any of the other competitions.
Sorry , but I don't see these ladies being the next ones. Mallet is a junior who just moved up from novice and already celebrated her 17th birthday last April. She still is only a 3S and 3T only lady. The others ( who will all compete senior nationally this year ) have no consistency whatsoever. I actually can see some of that list failing to make nationals. Cambria Little failed to get out of sectionals last season.
I would look more at the 13 year old Gabrielle Daleman who landed a lutz in Thornhill. In the Western Ontario fall competition, she landed both flip and lutz in the short program. Why she did not even get substitute consideration for a JGP is beyond me.
IMO , the lack of event finals in our domestic competitions in general ( Thornhill from pre-novice to junior excepted ) has been the biggest problem.
The ladies you mentioned all were used to event finals all the time.
We got rid of event finals before we stopped the NAC events. When the event finals were removed, the results of our ladies suffered as well. We ended up hogging the last places often over 30 points below the worst American.
The problem is that Skate Canada thought that there was no need for event finals to make decisions about international assignments when the new judging system came into place. When there are no event finals, our most talented skaters have no incentive to improve in super weak fields ( they often can sleepwalk their way to winning their group ). Also competition against weak fields is poor preparation against international competition. It is no wonder our ladies are overwhelmed when they go there
Only the Central Ontario section realizes Skate Canada's error to some degree and brought it back somewhat at Thornhill a couple years ago ( still don't have it for pre-juveniles and juveniles who need it the most IMO ). And Central Ontario has not implemented finals for any of the other competitions.
Sorry , but I don't see these ladies being the next ones. Mallet is a junior who just moved up from novice and already celebrated her 17th birthday last April. She still is only a 3S and 3T only lady. The others ( who will all compete senior nationally this year ) have no consistency whatsoever. I actually can see some of that list failing to make nationals. Cambria Little failed to get out of sectionals last season.
I would look more at the 13 year old Gabrielle Daleman who landed a lutz in Thornhill. In the Western Ontario fall competition, she landed both flip and lutz in the short program. Why she did not even get substitute consideration for a JGP is beyond me.
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2005
I suggested from Juv (Juvenile) to Novice (or Junior) that if the skaters are close to the border that they come down and compete at the above mentioned competitions. These comps have HUGE and LOTS of groups at the Juv, Int, Nov and sometimes Junior level and all have final rounds, so if the skater is competitive, they can go against the best who were competitive in the other initial rounds at that level in FR. Summer vacation, anyone? Tack it on to a trip somewhere else...
Dragonlady, you pretty much contradict yourself in these few sentences. You want the kids to go against the best at every competition, but then there is an issue with travel. If they want to advance they have to see the best which may not be available in the individual sections. The sections would still operate independently until you get to qualifying for regionals/challenge/nationals. Personally, I think you would get the kids that are truly competitive involved and not the "recreational competitive". Wouldn't the cost be cheaper to do a qualifying event in your own section plus one in the province next to you and advance to sectionals, then do an easy sectionals and then get over-whelmed at Challenge. That is more discouraging to the kid than progressive.
We do have Canadian ladies at the novice level and up who attend the American competitions.
The problem with the lower levels ( pre-novice down Canadian; Intermediate down US ) is the the program requirements are different between the Canadian and American systems. Different requirements, program lengths etc.
The sad thing is that it is at the lowest levels where the event finals are most beneficial. That is why it is important that Canada has event finals domestically at all levels so the best can compete against each other all the time.
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2005
Why don't the two federations get together and standardize Juvenile and Intermediate levels? That way you CAN cross-compete. As I said, my Region is incredibly competitive in Intermediate (108 at Regionals next week) and there will be a small subset advancing to Junior Nationals (next year, Sectionals and then Nationals).
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
For that matter, Aston, PA, & Liberty are not that far, and kids compete from all over down to the very youngest at that competition.
Canadians do compete in Seniors & Juniors there. Perhaps they should look at sending girls to juveniles there.
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2003
It is cost prohibitive to take Juveniles out of the country to compete and coaches simply won't do it. You have to pay for yourself, your family and your coach, plus lost lessons for your coach when you travel. We couldn't even get our coach to go from Toronto to Ottawa for Minto in the summer. It costs a couple of hundred dollars just to do a local event, much less add in travel and hotel for a juvenile event.
There really are competitions every weekend of the year in Ontario so you shouldn't have to leave the country to get real competition.
There really are competitions every weekend of the year in Ontario so you shouldn't have to leave the country to get real competition.
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2010
RE In Ontario you could take your kid to a comp every weekend ... sadly, for Competitive skaters no. In EOS, there is Minto in July, Autumn Skate in September, then, SEctionals, and that's it until April IIRC - former opportunities seem to be gone. COS has Thornhill in August, Octoberfest in October, then Sectionals, and that's it I believe until Scarboro skate in April. WOS has Summer Sizzle in August, Isabelle Henderson in September ... then Sectionals.
Unless you go to Challenge, you're done in the first week of November. You're not allowed to compete in your discipline in the StarSkate competitions if you have registered for Sectionals.
Now, if you're doing Starskate, you have more comps ... it's just the competitive kids who are limited, more so this year from what I can see than previously. Skate Canada is claiming a lack of judges as a contributing factor ...
Unless you go to Challenge, you're done in the first week of November. You're not allowed to compete in your discipline in the StarSkate competitions if you have registered for Sectionals.
Now, if you're doing Starskate, you have more comps ... it's just the competitive kids who are limited, more so this year from what I can see than previously. Skate Canada is claiming a lack of judges as a contributing factor ...
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- Joined
- Jan 21, 2010
Absolutely, and that would certainly help, and it would also help with "benchmarking" for the Canadian skaters, particularly the boys who really lack competition in Canada. I was wondering with the recent changes to the Pre-nov/Novice level program requirements if we were moving closer to the US model, but, I haven't compared it apples to apples.
It is not impossible to take a competitive stream skater to outside competitions. For a few years here,an interested coach and parents rented a van and signed up a group of skaters and parents for a competition in the US. There we met skaters from other provinces and several states. There was a final,and our juvenile and pre-novice skaters watched everything and learned.From that group most of the then Juvenile and PreNovice skaters eventually qualified for Nationals. It did cost,but less than an individual fare. Unfortunately when it came to Thornhill,the section took a team and left off most of the really good skaters. The few that went independently were on their own for ice time,etc,but the local section people and coaches rallied round them. It is also possible for the coaching network to arrange coaching before and during the competition. It is also a possibility to take a keen jr.coach for experience. The one we took for our team is now coaching international level US and Canadian skaters. What is also important is to bring skaters and judges together. Our skater left the province from pre Novice on,every summer. The coach always had a group of international judges available to monitor the skaters throughout the summer. It really helped the skaters,and quite a few of those skaters entered judging programmes while they were still competing themselves.It might be a good idea to explore some financial incentives for skaters who have ended competing and would like to become judges or technical specialists,as summer jobs are now scarce for students.
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2005
This is why you fail, then. I see the really serious kids here go to Liberty, Detroit, St Paul, Glacier Falls, and Colorado Springs all in the space of one summer to compete. Sure the family doesn't have a life, money, or vacation, but the skater is REALLY good! There's got to be a way to get your kids out of the country to be more competitive at a younger age.
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