Hawayek & Baker withdraw from US Nationals

[momrk]

Health is health. Physical health. Mental health. All part of health. If mental health makes it unsafe to compete it is a wise decision not to complete. If an injury could be worsened by competing, it is a wise decision to not compete. Physical and mental health are intertwined. I don't know how the petition will be reviewed, but I would hope fairly without bias re mental health.

 

[iluvtodd]

Oh, no! I hope they can heal properly from ALL of the issues - mental as well as physical. They are a fantastic & accomplished team. Hoping that they are successful in being named to the 2023 USA World Team. Should that not happen, I that they will be able to start the next season as best as they can.

 

[sworddance21]

I don't really have much to add that hasn't already been said. I'm very sad not to see them at nationals (they have been my favorite dance team for years), but I'm glad they are focusing on their health. I hope that USFSA grants their petition and we see them at Worlds. They deserve to be there.

 

[Spiralgraph]

What a shame they had to withdraw from Nationals, they will be missed. But if they need time to heal both physically and mentally they made the right choice. I'll be rooting hard for them whenever they compete next.

 

[4everchan]

The questions you ask in the second paragraph are very relevant. Warning: Long Post

From the selection criteria:

Athletes/teams who qualified to compete but did not compete or complete both segments of the competition at any of the events listed above due to injury or illness, verified by U.S. Figure Skating medical personnel, may still be considered for selection by petitioning to the International Committee for nomination to the World Team. A petition in writing for consideration must be submitted to the International Committee Chair prior to the International Committee meeting for the petitioner’s respective event.
And...
To be considered for selection by petition, the athlete must be able to prove competitive readiness by performing complete competition programs (SP/RD, FS/FD) with all planned program elements by a specified date, as approved and reviewed by a monitoring panel to 4 be determined by the International Committee. In addition, U.S. Figure Skating medical personnel must verify that the athlete(s) will be physically ready to compete at the World Championships.
I don't know if "prioritizing mental health" falls under the category of illness or injury, and I don't know that it doesn't. The final step of Team Selection is an evaluation of physical readiness, not mental readiness. And how that's determined is also unknown, at least to me.

Also relevant:

The purpose of the selection is to select the athletes who will have the best chance for success at the ISU World Figure Skating Championships to win the maximum number of medals and future berths for the World Team the following season.

As you know, I think this should not be the purpose of Nationals and/or Team Selection (it should be transparency and fairness to athletes given a level playing field)... but whatever. Let's run with this.

While I dislike pre-awarding placements by virtue of prognostication.... I think it's fair to assume that C/B are likely to finish on the podium and H/B are not, so World medals would not be a consideration. But slots for next year would be. In the absence of H/B, one of the other two teams, most likely G/P and C/P, would have to finish Top 10 to secure three spots for next year. Given the absence of Russian dance teams altogether and only two Canadian dance teams... well, let's say it's a fairly good shot.

Finally, there's the issue of precedent. I've already mentioned that I don't think there's been a waiver request made on the basis of mental health... so that's one precedent that would be set. And I don't think a medical waiver has ever been awarded to a skater/team that is not a prior National Champion or World Medalist.- so that's a precedent that would be broken.

I don't know how this plays out. My heart says yes! But my brain says no.

What you are saying is that this particular year, without HB at worlds, USA would not lose out on a medal (because they are not really in the mix for the podium with some strong opposition coveting the 3 podium steps) AND the USA would not lose spots as it is very likely that C/B will finish top 3 and that the other team would finish top 10 and most likely better. So this would nullify the need to send HB to worlds via petitioning.

I think this analysis is correct (as you said, brain works that way, the heart, another matter) but there is one detail to consider. This is ice dance : In my opinion, the USA would lose out a lot not sending HB to worlds because in ice dance, momentum is everything. At the beginning of a new Olympic cycle, the rankings are somewhat shuffled. Having HB in the top 6 at worlds would seed them for GP season, would give them important ranking points, and if any of the current top teams were to retire in the coming years (many have mentioned C/B as well as both Canadian teams - could be retiring after a world medal or a participation at home worlds in 2024) ... In light of this, the USA would not be doing themselves a favour by not sending HB who could become "on paper" ranked number 3 in the pecking order for the 2025 season, very close to the olympics...

Yup.. .I know.... we are thinking ahead but it's ice dance where momentum is so much more important than in the other disciplines.

 

[slider11]

Mental Health = Health. I hope the selection committee will take into account their body of work this year and prior and award them a World's placement. From there, either they are healthy enough to skate at World's, or not. If not, the next alternate will step in. Concussions for Jean-Luc and Kaitlin, back problems for Jean-Luc...the physical and mental problems go hand in hand.

 

[4everchan]

Mental Health = Health. I hope the selection committee will take into account their body of work this year and prior and award them a World's placement. From there, either they are healthy enough to skate at World's, or not. If not, the next alternate will step in. Concussions for Jean-Luc and Kaitlin, back problems for Jean-Luc...the physical and mental problems go hand in hand.

Concussions : it is widely documented that concussion can lead to depression. It can be inter-related in their case too.

 

[TontoK]

What you are saying is that this particular year, without HB at worlds, USA would not lose out on a medal (because they are not really in the mix for the podium with some strong opposition coveting the 3 podium steps) AND the USA would not lose spots as it is very likely that C/B will finish top 3 and that the other team would finish top 10 and most likely better. So this would nullify the need to send HB to worlds via petitioning.

I think this analysis is correct (as you said, brain works that way, the heart, another matter) but there is one detail to consider. This is ice dance : In my opinion, the USA would lose out a lot not sending HB to worlds because in ice dance, momentum is everything. At the beginning of a new Olympic cycle, the rankings are somewhat shuffled. Having HB in the top 6 at worlds would seed them for GP season, would give them important ranking points, and if any of the current top teams were to retire in the coming years (many have mentioned C/B as well as both Canadian teams - could be retiring after a world medal or a participation at home worlds in 2024) ... In light of this, the USA would not be doing themselves a favour by not sending HB who could become "on paper" ranked number 3 in the pecking order for the 2025 season, very close to the olympics...

Yup.. .I know.... we are thinking ahead but it's ice dance where momentum is so much more important than in the other disciplines.

Yes, you understood what I was trying to write very well.

I agree with your analysis about momentum in the following year. And it pains me to write this.... momentum for next season is not a selection criteria.

Of course, the criteria are broad and vague enough to allow USFSA to do whatever they want in this case. It's not a given either way.

 

[Sai Bon]

Mental Health = Health. I hope the selection committee will take into account their body of work this year and prior and award them a World's placement. From there, either they are healthy enough to skate at World's, or not. If not, the next alternate will step in. Concussions for Jean-Luc and Kaitlin, back problems for Jean-Luc...the physical and mental problems go hand in hand.

They BOTH had concussion?!!

 

[momrk]

Mental Health = Health. I hope the selection committee will take into account their body of work this year and prior and award them a World's placement. From there, either they are healthy enough to skate at World's, or not. If not, the next alternate will step in. Concussions for Jean-Luc and Kaitlin, back problems for Jean-Luc...the physical and mental problems go hand in hand.

Exactly what I was saying earlier- you cannot separate

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

They BOTH had concussion?!!

JL had several from accidents in practices: One back in September of 2015, and then another in August of 2018. Kaitlin suffered a concussion and needed stitches in her head July of 2021 from an accident in practice on a lift.

 

[Sai Bon]

JL had several from accidents in practices: One back in September of 2015, and then another in August of 2018. Kaitlin suffered a concussion and needed stitches in her head July of 2021 from an accident in practice on a lift.

I don't know if there are parallels with equestrian sport, but I've had some bad falls (miraculously no concussion, but multiple spinal fractures), and I became more and more scared of falling again. It was my one passion, so I felt quite depressed as the scope of my riding narrowed, and eventually I had to quit. I'm sure Kaitlin and Jean-Luc are made of much sterner stuff, but mental health can be a delicate thing. Wishing them all the best in their recovery.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I don't know if there are parallels with equestrian sport, but I've had some bad falls (miraculously no concussion, but multiple spinal fractures), and I became more and more scared of falling again. It was my one passion, so I felt quite depressed as the scope of my riding narrowed, and eventually I had to quit. I'm sure Kaitlin and Jean-Luc are made of much sterner stuff, but mental health can be a delicate thing. Wishing them all the best in their recovery.

There are some parallels. I know of elite skaters who have had to retire due to concussions and their permanent effects on many things.

 

[Kitt]

Wow, concussions for both of them! I was thinking of Kaitlin's knee wrap and wondering if they could eliminate the knee slides. But concussions are a different matter!

But needless to say, I agree with all above who are wishing them the very best recovery and I am really sad we will not see them at Nationals.

 

[moonvine]

The questions you ask in the second paragraph are very relevant. Warning: Long Post

From the selection criteria:

Athletes/teams who qualified to compete but did not compete or complete both segments of the competition at any of the events listed above due to injury or illness, verified by U.S. Figure Skating medical personnel, may still be considered for selection by petitioning to the International Committee for nomination to the World Team. A petition in writing for consideration must be submitted to the International Committee Chair prior to the International Committee meeting for the petitioner’s respective event.
And...
To be considered for selection by petition, the athlete must be able to prove competitive readiness by performing complete competition programs (SP/RD, FS/FD) with all planned program elements by a specified date, as approved and reviewed by a monitoring panel to 4 be determined by the International Committee. In addition, U.S. Figure Skating medical personnel must verify that the athlete(s) will be physically ready to compete at the World Championships.
I don't know if "prioritizing mental health" falls under the category of illness or injury, and I don't know that it doesn't. The final step of Team Selection is an evaluation of physical readiness, not mental readiness. And how that's determined is also unknown, at least to me.

Also relevant:

The purpose of the selection is to select the athletes who will have the best chance for success at the ISU World Figure Skating Championships to win the maximum number of medals and future berths for the World Team the following season.

As you know, I think this should not be the purpose of Nationals and/or Team Selection (it should be transparency and fairness to athletes given a level playing field)... but whatever. Let's run with this.

While I dislike pre-awarding placements by virtue of prognostication.... I think it's fair to assume that C/B are likely to finish on the podium and H/B are not, so World medals would not be a consideration. But slots for next year would be. In the absence of H/B, one of the other two teams, most likely G/P and C/P, would have to finish Top 10 to secure three spots for next year. Given the absence of Russian dance teams altogether and only two Canadian dance teams... well, let's say it's a fairly good shot.

Finally, there's the issue of precedent. I've already mentioned that I don't think there's been a waiver request made on the basis of mental health... so that's one precedent that would be set. And I don't think a medical waiver has ever been awarded to a skater/team that is not a prior National Champion or World Medalist.- so that's a precedent that would be broken.

I don't know how this plays out. My heart says yes! But my brain says no.

If the US wants to send the three best teams we have to Worlds, they will grant the petition. If they don't care, they won't.

 

[rain]

If the US wants to send the three best teams we have to Worlds, they will grant the petition. If they don't care, they won't.

Yeah, the federation can and will do anything they want.

That said, I think if Hawayek/Baker are well, they don't need to worry about not being sent. They had their best GP season ever and went to the GPF. Of course the US Fed would rather send them than they would Green/Parsons or Carreira/Ponomarenko.

I'm saddened that H/B will not be skating at nationals. Their free is one of the most beautiful of the season.

 

[moonvine]

Yeah, the federation can and will do anything they want.

That said, I think if Hawayek/Baker are well, they don't need to worry about not being sent. They had their best GP season ever and went to the GPF. Of course the US Fed would rather send them than they would Green/Parsons or Carreira/Ponomarenko.

I'm saddened that H/B will not be skating at nationals. Their free is one of the most beautiful of the season.

Their free is always the most beautiful of the season (IMO, of course). The dad jokes I have been collecting must wait for another year, I guess.

 

[TontoK]

Their free is always the most beautiful of the season (IMO, of course). The dad jokes I have been collecting must wait for another year, I guess.

I agree, and I always feel like they're criminally underscored. You know from previous conversations that I'm a big fan of their skating. I'm still not sure if they will have the waiver granted, and to be honest, I'm not sure if I'd approve it if I were the sole decider.

And, continuing with the honesty... that may be because the concept of mental health is unclear to me in terms of diagnosis, treatment, recovery time, etc. Is it self-diagnosed? What are the treatment methods and how is effectiveness of treatment assessed? Is recovery self-proclaimed? It's not as clearcut to me as a physical complaint.

None of this should be interpreted as snark or disrespect to a team I really enjoy... I just don't understand.

 

[Skater Boy]

I am sad to hear this. I am not so worried about them petitioning as to they get better. Chock and Bates are kind of the unintended benificiaries as well as lower ranked teams. IT seems like teams that were challenging Chock and Bates are having bad luck - remember Piper Gilles is not looking so good with an appendectomy and they upset Chock and Bates already this year. Early on HB looked really good this season. Of course i am curious more about their injuries but whatever. I trust to drop out of Nationals it must be pretty serious/challenging.

 

[ucrgirl]

If the US wants to send the three best teams we have to Worlds, they will grant the petition. If they don't care, they won't.

I don't think it is quite that simple. USFS may have a strong preference for the appearance or "fairness" and teams fighting it out at Nationals and awarding spots based on that competition. And as others have said, you can often measure when one has healed from a physical injury but how do you objectively measure improved mental health? In this instance H/B are clearly in the top two US ice dancers . . . but what would you do if the presumptive no. 3 or no. 4 (say Green and Parsons or Carrera and Ponomerenko) withdrew for mental health concerns?

(apologies for spelling)